So bored, reiginite interest in Starmade

[FunnyBunny14]

AI will get a function some time, and we should also get NPC factions later on in the game. And that will add a lot, and I mean A LOT, of fun to the game.

 

[Qweesdy]

You know this isn't eve? There simply isn't the capacity to scam, and the game does not have enough numbers (on any server) to have an AI economy without players feeling that side of the game is totally out of control. Player trading in this game will likely always remain at minimum levels, for the simple reason that there are AI shops almost everywhere and every player becomes self sustaining after a short while. Large player factions have no meaning, and neither does the economy.

Sometimes (now) I really do wish these forums had sane support for nested quotes.

For a summary:

• I suggested an "economy update" where there's actual resources chains (e.g. asteroid mine -> refinery -> factory -> shop) ; and mentioned this could be a good first step to a quest system
• Thomas Jetson indicated that he'd be worried about the "rewards for effort" from quests upsetting the economy on multi-player; and suggested that AI factions aren't needed in multi-player
• I replied, and pointed out that the (hypothetical) quest system wouldn't upset the economy in multi-player, and that removing the trading guild from multi-player would do far more harm than good
• You've come along later, failed to follow the sequence of comments/replies (because the lack of support for nested quotes makes it hard to follow a sequence of comments/replies); and have taken my reply out of context

 

[Megacrafter127]

You know this isn't eve? There simply isn't the capacity to scam, and the game does not have enough numbers (on any server) to have an AI economy without players feeling that side of the game is totally out of control. Player trading in this game will likely always remain at minimum levels, for the simple reason that there are AI shops almost everywhere and every player becomes self sustaining after a short while. Large player factions have no meaning, and neither does the economy.

Sometimes (now) I really do wish these forums had sane support for nested quotes.

It has, you just have to insert them manually

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Problem is, quotes don't allow you to expand quotes inside them.

 

[kiwionthemoon]

Sometimes (now) I really do wish these forums had sane support for nested quotes.

For a summary:

• I suggested an "economy update" where there's actual resources chains (e.g. asteroid mine -> refinery -> factory -> shop) ; and mentioned this could be a good first step to a quest system
• Thomas Jetson indicated that he'd be worried about the "rewards for effort" from quests upsetting the economy on multi-player; and suggested that AI factions aren't needed in multi-player
• I replied, and pointed out that the (hypothetical) quest system wouldn't upset the economy in multi-player, and that removing the trading guild from multi-player would do far more harm than good
• You've come along later, failed to follow the sequence of comments/replies (because the lack of support for nested quotes makes it hard to follow a sequence of comments/replies); and have taken my reply out of context

My apologies then, but i felt some of your points where wrong, so i gave my argument. Anyway, next time ill read the context.

 

[Omni]

You know this isn't eve? There simply isn't the capacity to scam, and the game does not have enough numbers (on any server) to have an AI economy without players feeling that side of the game is totally out of control. Player trading in this game will likely always remain at minimum levels, for the simple reason that there are AI shops almost everywhere and every player becomes self sustaining after a short while. Large player factions have no meaning, and neither does the economy.

You're talking about the game as it is now, not the game as it will be in the future. Don't worry, it'll never be like EVE in the sense of "to do anything fun, you'll have to wait a few weeks", but expect a lot more depth.

 

[Thomas Jetson]

Personally, I think of StarMade as it is now as similar to Minecraft Classic. While the principle concepts are there, the "gameplay" has yet to be implemented. The current setup caters to building (and somewhat to multiplayer), but doesn't have much to hold your attention beyond that.

I'm not the only one who doesn't want to see a set style of gameplay implemented in StarMade. Let the players decide what game will be played in this sandbox. Server settings could accommodate a large variety of gameplay styles and would be available to both single player and multiplayer administrators.[DOUBLEPOST=1413039407,1413037807][/DOUBLEPOST]

Imagine a faction of real players with a jump gate to a galaxy that's a very very long way from spawn; who mines raw resources (and has factories producing all the different types of blocks) in that very far away galaxy; and sells their blocks in the "spawn point galaxy"; and creates quests in the "spawn point galaxy" to keep other players entertained. As far as other players (who don't know about the faction's private jump gate or their very far away galaxy) can tell, it seems like the faction is getting resources from "we don't know where".

The trading guild (and pirate guild) would have exactly the same effects on the economy as the faction of real players with their very far away galaxy. The only difference is that the game would optimise it a little - rather than doing a large amount of processing to simulate a very far away galaxy, the game would simply emulate the same end result - a faction that gets resources from "we don't know where".

Basically; if you think the trading guild offering "a fair reward for a reasonable effort" is going to upset your economy, then your economy is broken in the first place.

More importantly; "supply and demand" alone is seriously flawed - without anything to keep it balanced, the inevitable outcome is large factions ripping people off with any of a number of different scams. In the real world we have laws preventing most of the problems (e.g. anti-monopoly laws, fair trading laws, etc). The trading guild serves as an extremely important part of ensuring the economy remains balanced. For example, if a large faction tries to manipulate the market by acquiring all ship cores (to create an artificial supply problem, so that they can sell their cores at extremely inflated prices), then the existence of the trading guild ensures that prices remain within a slightly sane range.

The players are more important to multiplayer gameplay then the NPCs will ever be. If a faction begins to control prices and availability of certain resources the other players will respond.

The AI is static and predictable, real players are not, they are dynamic and innovative, they will adapt! This is essential to interesting gameplay! If laws need to be made then they will be made in-game, not in programming or by an administrator.

Why do you think StarMade gets boring for some and they leave for a time until new features lure them back? Because of lack creative gameplay, that's why!

If all the rules are set in code then the game in StarMade is lost. Play it in single player if you still want to.

I am NOT the only one who can see this so why are so many others wanting it to happen? Laziness or lack of imagination or lack of drive? I don't know. Maybe communism is creeping in.

 

[Qweesdy]

You're talking about the game as it is now, not the game as it will be in the future. Don't worry, it'll never be like EVE in the sense of "to do anything fun, you'll have to wait a few weeks", but expect a lot more depth.

Actually, that raises a certain (unrelated) issue I've been thinking about...

Would it make sense for the game to be able to take advantage of multiple servers?

For example; imagine a "meta-server" that keeps track of login, factions, chat, etc; which (dynamically) assigns areas of the universe (systems, galaxies?) to slave servers and co-ordinates those slave servers. The meta-server could also have some built-in fault tolerance - e.g. if a slave server crashes, transfer the area it was responsible for (and the players that were in that area) to a different slave server. In addition; maybe the meta-server could also be able to use client machines as slave servers under certain circumstances (e.g. when there's only 1 player in the area and that player's computer is able to handle a little extra load).

With enough servers, would we be able to have a single universe with thousands of players online at the same time?

 

[Ithirahad]

Actually, that raises a certain (unrelated) issue I've been thinking about...

Would it make sense for the game to be able to take advantage of multiple servers?

For example; imagine a "meta-server" that keeps track of login, factions, chat, etc; which (dynamically) assigns areas of the universe (systems, galaxies?) to slave servers and co-ordinates those slave servers. The meta-server could also have some built-in fault tolerance - e.g. if a slave server crashes, transfer the area it was responsible for (and the players that were in that area) to a different slave server. In addition; maybe the meta-server could also be able to use client machines as slave servers under certain circumstances (e.g. when there's only 1 player in the area and that player's computer is able to handle a little extra load).

With enough servers, would we be able to have a single universe with thousands of players online at the same time?

This probably isn't possible, but it does sound cool... Compared to the current splintered nature of the community it's highly unlikely to fly around and actually find a currently-inhabited system, making exploring kind of boring. However, if the servers could be... sewed together somehow... perhaps this could change...

 

[Thomas Jetson]

You know this isn't eve? There simply isn't the capacity to scam, and the game does not have enough numbers (on any server) to have an AI economy without players feeling that side of the game is totally out of control. Player trading in this game will likely always remain at minimum levels, for the simple reason that there are AI shops almost everywhere and every player becomes self sustaining after a short while. Large player factions have no meaning, and neither does the economy.

This could be Eve without the complexity built in.
This could be entirely player run.
This could be highly configurable for single or multiplayer use.
This could go mainframe and have very big numbers.
I think Schema can see that. He has been proven to be quite clever.

I'll say it again:
AI in single player: Good
AI in multi-player: Bad
Trade among players: Excellent[DOUBLEPOST=1413040994,1413040823][/DOUBLEPOST]

Actually, that raises a certain (unrelated) issue I've been thinking about...

Would it make sense for the game to be able to take advantage of multiple servers?

For example; imagine a "meta-server" that keeps track of login, factions, chat, etc; which (dynamically) assigns areas of the universe (systems, galaxies?) to slave servers and co-ordinates those slave servers. The meta-server could also have some built-in fault tolerance - e.g. if a slave server crashes, transfer the area it was responsible for (and the players that were in that area) to a different slave server. In addition; maybe the meta-server could also be able to use client machines as slave servers under certain circumstances (e.g. when there's only 1 player in the area and that player's computer is able to handle a little extra load).

With enough servers, would we be able to have a single universe with thousands of players online at the same time?

Your genius is showing...

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I personally think that the edition of AI in multiplayer will have good or bad influences on multiplayer depending on the the players, and mainly the amount of players. If there are a lot of players, the AI factions won't stand a chance.

That being said, I think there should be a way to completely eliminate an AI faction (if they ever get added).

 

[Thomas Jetson]

I personally think that the edition of AI in multiplayer will have good or bad influences on multiplayer depending on the the players, and mainly the amount of players. If there are a lot of players, the AI factions won't stand a chance.

That being said, I think there should be a way to completely eliminate an AI faction (if they ever get added).

Server configuration settings would do the trick.

 

[Omni]

Actually, that raises a certain (unrelated) issue I've been thinking about...

Would it make sense for the game to be able to take advantage of multiple servers?

For example; imagine a "meta-server" that keeps track of login, factions, chat, etc; which (dynamically) assigns areas of the universe (systems, galaxies?) to slave servers and co-ordinates those slave servers. The meta-server could also have some built-in fault tolerance - e.g. if a slave server crashes, transfer the area it was responsible for (and the players that were in that area) to a different slave server. In addition; maybe the meta-server could also be able to use client machines as slave servers under certain circumstances (e.g. when there's only 1 player in the area and that player's computer is able to handle a little extra load).

With enough servers, would we be able to have a single universe with thousands of players online at the same time?

We've actually talked about that theoretical possibility before, but actual practical implementation would be one massive task and there are countless potential issues.

I'll say it again:
AI in single player: Good
AI in multi-player: Bad
Trade among players: Excellent

I actually disagree that AI in multiplayer is bad. In fact, AI in multiplayer is known as PvE, and includes things such as pirates and the Trading Guild. While it's actually surprising how effectively servers can run entirely player-driven, a lot would be lost by the complete removal of AI from multiplayer. The players are obviously the main point and the AI should be expected to give way to players to encourage actual multiple player interaction, but AI, including AI factions, serve an important role.

That being said, I'd say there'd obviously be a server option to make it player-only. If people want to play servers that are entirely player-driven, that's an option and choice I highly support. (Especially since the results would likely be fascinating.)

No promises about the details of exactly what I've said above, just expressing my opinions. This post is NOT an official statement on plans for AI and the inclusion of AI.

 

[WaffulMann]

The problem with multiplayer battles in starmade I have is:
1) ship handling, not like what you would expect. By what I expected, see star trek/star wars/mass effect/halo
2) they all happen at literally point blank range, with hulls bumping into other hulls
3) jumping, lagging, teleporting ships.

The problem with singleplayer battles in starmade I have is:
1) same as above, ship handling
2) pirates don't strafe you they just come charging in and when you shoot them go full reverse and then go afk for 30 seconds.

 

[jayman38]

We've actually talked about that theoretical possibility before, but actual practical implementation would be one massive task and there are countless potential issues.

An intermediate suggestion: if black holes and other singularities are brought into starmade, maybe instead of destroying the player on contact, have a chance to "exit" the event on another server in the same sector (or adjacent sector if the same sector would be hostile/deadly) in a different universe. (Maybe prompt the player with the option of universe transfer or instant death, to avoid unwanted server hopping.) The servers representing the two different universes would need to "shake hands" by whitelisting each other and enable the option in their respective server config. If the ship that the player is in doesn't follow the rules of the destination server, maybe replace it with some sort of beginner's ship, so the astronaut is not left stranded in deep space.

Edit: It would take some time to transfer to player from one server to another. Maybe play the existing hyper jump animation while the player waits to pop out into the second universe.