Simple solution to a multitude of problems

[Calhoun]

Initially I did assume that the consensus was that large ships were the trump all, but every rebuttal I've given explanations, details, examples, strategies as to why I believe what I believe. Why on earth do people insult, talk down to, and belittle people they disagree with? Even if I'm blatantly wrong there is no excuse and it serves no purpose. When encountering someone you believe to be informationally or intellectually more disadvantaged than yourself there are only two courses of action: You either don't waste your time explaining things or you do me the incredible favor and educate me. Belittling people who are incorrect only serves to discourage people from asking questions or making statements for fear of being wrong.

Here is your post synopsis:

1. Small ships will be able to defeat large ships.
-They already can, and do.

2. Armor would be useful
-Why exactly? Weapons would still be far easier to scale up without the disadvantages.

3. Cloaking would be useful
-a) It already is, b) Why?

4. Repair beams would be useful
-No, they wouldn't. Your proposal has them buffing the regeneration, but that still requires you to purpose build a ship when you could just wait or use a shipyard.

5. Shipyards would be useful
-They already are. The only thing that stops people from using shipyards more is that they're stupidly buggy.

6. Character weapons would be useful (I'll explain)
-This point is dependant on the next few points, see no. 9

7. Ship to ship boarding would be a thing (I'll explain)
-see no. 9

8. Interior ship defenses would be a thing because of boarding
-see no. 9

9. Ships with large crews of players would be a thing (I'll explain)
-You might think so, but no they won't. Removing shields actually makes boarding less useful, because you'll be able to blow the ship up far faster than you could disable it with handheld weapons. As for stealing ships, that would only work if the player wasn't online, and can already be done.

10. Ship design would make a difference
-I'm stupefied that you're insinuating it doesn't already

11. No more massive sloppy borg cubes
-Why? Would cubes suddenly implode if this was implemented?

12. It'd still be easy enough for the casual players/noobs
-This isn't even a point

13. People who don't enjoy building ships would play this game
-Why? Points 10 and 11 claimed that ship design would matter more, not less.

Tl;dr the only 'evidence' you have provided is an opinion which is incorrect.

 

[silverfoe]

I disagree with almost all your points however I do like the idea of repair beams regenerating blocks, eg from a blueprint. Nobody uses them for anything right now.

 

[Zyrr]

I'm not sure if you're familiar with starwars battlefront 2, in the space battles you could destroy systems internally and externally, not just the core, that's what I thought might be fun/achievable. But I suppose you can attack the core now, once the problems with the torch is fixed. Although I don't connect my core to my hangers, I use teleporters, so there's a major flaw in my idea. I suppose you'd have to make a tool that allows enemies to "hack" the teleporter, but then it could just be deleted in build mode in mid battle, so you'd have to make it to where you can't make changes in build mode while in combat... which seems like something that should be anyway lol. Then I suppose people would make mazes in their ships and that would be hilarious


Seems like a lot of people are telling me what you're saying here, that offense way out scales defense, and that is the major counter to my proposal. If this weren't true then would what I proposed be viable? What would have to change to make my proposal viable?
I'd be interested to see your ship designs, or designs that do what you say. Not that I don't believe you, seems like everyone is telling me about these ships but I've just never seen them. Would you mind linking the stardock to them so I can try em out?

They're simple to make, there's nothing special about them and barely anything separating them from what I trust anyone here could build in an hour or two if they knew how many of each block to use.

Your proposal isn't viable period, it's built with wrong assumptions and you ought to know that before making an overhaul suggestion like this. You're being mocked because you made an all encompassing overhaul suggestion without really understanding what you're saying or what you're replacing. I'd shelve your idea until you get a better grasp of the game or bring it's scope down by a factor of ten.

Again, if you want to see the ships in question, Veilith (kulbolen) or my YouTube channels. Watch em shoot at stuff.

 

[Optapodamus]

1. Small ships will be able to defeat large ships.
-They already can, and do.
I can concede on this point, but in my opinion it's not something the majority of players can do and that's what I'd like. I'd like to at least take some damage from anyone who attacks me, so that way every battle is thrilling.

2. Armor would be useful
-Why exactly? Weapons would still be far easier to scale up without the disadvantages.
Several points, this one included, was because the "warp when shields start to drop" strategy, in my opinion is the trump all and I thought the majority of players employed it as well. I don't remember if anyone has refuted me on this point. With that strategy blocks never take damage so armor is unnecessary

3. Cloaking would be useful
-a) It already is, b) Why?
I didn't think it was because cloaking employs a maximum size craft that, through my testing, can never equip enough weapons to be a threat to large ships, especially before they can retreat.

4. Repair beams would be useful
-No, they wouldn't. Your proposal has them buffing the regeneration, but that still requires you to purpose build a ship when you could just wait or use a shipyard.
I'm confident on this point. And that being able to automatically replace blocks lost in combat is a necessity to this game, even if not automatically. If not automatically then players could have a docked repair ship for when they're too far from their shipyard, or if they're nomadic.

5. Shipyards would be useful
-They already are. The only thing that stops people from using shipyards more is that they're stupidly buggy.
I wouldn't mind hearing what shipyards are good for, being as how the blueprint system still spawns ships, and instantly.

6. Character weapons would be useful (I'll explain)
-This point is dependant on the next few points, see no. 9

7. Ship to ship boarding would be a thing (I'll explain)
-see no. 9

8. Interior ship defenses would be a thing because of boarding
-see no. 9

9. Ships with large crews of players would be a thing (I'll explain)
-You might think so, but no they won't. Removing shields actually makes boarding less useful, because you'll be able to blow the ship up far faster than you could disable it with handheld weapons. As for stealing ships, that would only work if the player wasn't online, and can already be done.
With weapons balanced as they are now this is true, I think with a re-balance this is still feasible. Buff hand-held and nerf scaling on regular weapons, for example. Seems like Armor weight maybe she be reduced as well.

10. Ship design would make a difference
-I'm stupefied that you're insinuating it doesn't already
In the strategy of "warping before shields drop" Ship design makes little difference

11. No more massive sloppy borg cubes
-Why? Would cubes suddenly implode if this was implemented?
It was my thinking that being as how nothing ever takes damage using shields people have no reason to worry about where systems go. Similarly, because systems can't be destroyed individually it makes little difference as to where they're placed even after shields drop.

12. It'd still be easy enough for the casual players/noobs
-This isn't even a point
I still think this is valid. There is nothing strategically to do offensively against a ship until it's shields drop. So you have to have a ship that can do it or don't bother. Then even after the shields drop their is nothing to focus on, you just destroy as many blocks as possible. With my strategy people it would make dog fighting strategy much more open and easy for everyone. You could just download the game, build a basic ship and try to outmaneuver the enemy while trying to hit a critical system.

13. People who don't enjoy building ships would play this game
-Why? Points 10 and 11 claimed that ship design would matter more, not less.
Because dog-fighting would be much more dynamic.

I disagree with almost all your points however I do like the idea of repair beams regenerating blocks, eg from a blueprint. Nobody uses them for anything right now.

I can't imagine how this would do anything but be convenient for players, and with this mechanic I'd be encouraged to allow fights to last longer. Maybe I should enter this as a thing by itself

They're simple to make, there's nothing special about them and barely anything separating them from what I trust anyone here could build in an hour or two if they knew how many of each block to use.

Your proposal isn't viable period, it's built with wrong assumptions and you ought to know that before making an overhaul suggestion like this. You're being mocked because you made an all encompassing overhaul suggestion without really understanding what you're saying or what you're replacing. I'd shelve your idea until you get a better grasp of the game or bring it's scope down by a factor of ten.

Again, if you want to see the ships in question, Veilith (kulbolen) or my YouTube channels. Watch em shoot at stuff.

Yea, it's cool, I'm not upset that it isn't viable at this time. A bad idea may still lead someone else to something that does work, or some part of it may have merit. I still think it could work but there are several points given by people on the thread that have convinced me that it's not simple and it would require a lot of rework and balance.

 

[Calhoun]

Optapodamus

You keep mentioning warping when shields drop. Exactly how much PvP have you done? There's not some magic 10 second gap where you don't take damage once shields are down, once they're down you're getting holes. And inhibitors are quite effective at keeping ships in sector. Virtually no one "jumps, shoots, jumps". Furthermore, why would removing shields even change that if it were so?

Every post you've made shows a lack of knowledge in both ship design and tactics, and experience. What you're proposing is a fundamental change to the entire game, which would throw away any balancing that was been done over the past few years.

 

[Optapodamus]

Optapodamus

You keep mentioning warping when shields drop. Exactly how much PvP have you done? There's not some magic 10 second gap where you don't take damage once shields are down, once they're down you're getting holes. And inhibitors are quite effective at keeping ships in sector. Virtually no one "jumps, shoots, jumps". Furthermore, why would removing shields even change that if it were so?

Every post you've made shows a lack of knowledge in both ship design and tactics, and experience. What you're proposing is a fundamental change to the entire game, which would throw away any balancing that was been done over the past few years.

"Exactly how much PvP have you done?"
"Every post you've made shows a lack of knowledge in both ship design and tactics, and experience."

Yet,

You don't even know why removing shields would change the aforementioned "jump shoot jump" strategy as you called it. If a group of warp modules takes damage the charge is reset, for example, without shields this is now a possibility. A ship you might have the advantage against could strike an important block in a logic system, weapon, or defensive effect that could cause the advantage to change to their favor or allow their escape.

You insinuate there is no counter to inhibitors by saying "inhibitors are quite effective at keeping ships in sector." Anyone would know that having a large enough amount of warp modules will allow the warp to charge faster than it is inhibited, myself particularly I use a clock+sensor logic system to keep my 1 very large warp group and 7 small groups constantly charged at 95% to have an almost instant jump upon activation.

You think I sit around and wait until all my shields drop before leaving. If they drop faster or the same rate than my opponent I'll leave no matter how many shields I have remaining. I only fight when I have a very clear advantage and when it's me who initiates combat. And I'm glad that "virtually no one" fights this way because that's exactly why I so many people lose ships to me. I might stay until my shields drop in battles if not for the fact that it is a massive undertaking to find and repair even the slightest damage. If there was a way to easily return a ship to its previous condition, like how I mentioned, then it wouldn't be so obvious that there is no other strategy other than to leave well before shields drop.

This is why it is wise to always remain humble, always show respect to everyone especially in debate. Had you not claimed superiority to me I'd be educating you rather than humiliating you.

Now if you'd like to have a civilized debate like an adult I will continue, but further attempts to vaguely discredit me despite my never having claimed to know everything I'll be forced to conclude that further debate will serve no purpose as I have no interest in petty squabbles.

Although I feel no reason to prove my credibility to you, nor do I feel it is of any consequence being as how sound strategy is its own credibility, I will oblige. Using my aforementioned strategy I amassing a 2 million mass flagship back when I only PvP'd. Since that time I've taken a respite from PvP, having gotten bored, and mostly just done creative builds/logic. I've played off and on since launch, 800 hours to date. I am no stranger to this genre as I also play space engineers, Empyron, Avorion, From the depths etc. I would never claim to be the authority on any game, no matter how knowledgeable I was, how good I was at it, or even if I made the entire game myself. Especially a game like this with so many variables.

I can 100% guarantee a win or tie at tick tac toe if I'm always allowed to go first.

 

[Zyrr]

"Exactly how much PvP have you done?"
"Every post you've made shows a lack of knowledge in both ship design and tactics, and experience."

Yet,

You don't even know why removing shields would change the aforementioned "jump shoot jump" strategy as you called it. If a group of warp modules takes damage the charge is reset, for example, without shields this is now a possibility. A ship you might have the advantage against could strike an important block in a logic system, weapon, or defensive effect that could cause the advantage to change to their favor or allow their escape.

You insinuate there is no counter to inhibitors by saying "inhibitors are quite effective at keeping ships in sector." Anyone would know that having a large enough amount of warp modules will allow the warp to charge faster than it is inhibited, myself particularly I use a clock+sensor logic system to keep my 1 very large warp group and 7 small groups constantly charged at 95% to have an almost instant jump upon activation.

You think I sit around and wait until all my shields drop before leaving. If they drop faster or the same rate than my opponent I'll leave no matter how many shields I have remaining. I only fight when I have a very clear advantage and when it's me who initiates combat. And I'm glad that "virtually no one" fights this way because that's exactly why I so many people lose ships to me. I might stay until my shields drop in battles if not for the fact that it is a massive undertaking to find and repair even the slightest damage. If there was a way to easily return a ship to its previous condition, like how I mentioned, then it wouldn't be so obvious that there is no other strategy other than to leave well before shields drop.

This is why it is wise to always remain humble, always show respect to everyone especially in debate. Had you not claimed superiority to me I'd be educating you rather than humiliating you.

Now if you'd like to have a civilized debate like an adult I will continue, but further attempts to vaguely discredit me despite my never having claimed to know everything I'll be forced to conclude that further debate will serve no purpose as I have no interest in petty squabbles.

Although I feel no reason to prove my credibility to you, nor do I feel it is of any consequence being as how sound strategy is its own credibility, I will oblige. Using my aforementioned strategy I amassing a 2 million mass flagship back when I only PvP'd. Since that time I've taken a respite from PvP, having gotten bored, and mostly just done creative builds/logic. I've played off and on since launch, 800 hours to date. I am no stranger to this genre as I also play space engineers, Empyron, Avorion, From the depths etc. I would never claim to be the authority on any game, no matter how knowledgeable I was, how good I was at it, or even if I made the entire game myself. Especially a game like this with so many variables.

I can 100% guarantee a win or tie at tick tac toe if I'm always allowed to go first.

Fight me.

 

[kulbolen]

This is why it is wise to always remain humble, always show respect to everyone especially in debate. Had you not claimed superiority to me I'd be educating you rather than humiliating you.

who are you humiliating exactly?

 

[NaStral]

Fight me.

I will gladly host any fight on LvD should the potential combatants come to an agreement to actually fight.

 

[Calhoun]

who are you humiliating exactly?

Himself.

 

[Optapodamus]

Fight me.

Sigh.
To prove what? I never claimed that I could beat everyone in PvP, in fact I claimed that I only fight battles that I have the overwhelming advantage and when I initiate the attack, usually a surprise attack. Otherwise I flee. Soo you really want to sit around and wait for days for me to plan a surprise attack? Or is it that you don't think I can escape interdiction? In a 2 million mass ship? Because those are the only claims I've made. Can't test my hypothetical theory as it would require a lot of balance changes, you all proved that to me.

I seriously doubt you're this excited because you're intellectually stimulated. You're mad, because I've insulted your friend, which I was completely justified and took no pleasure in btw. So mad you've even go so far as to message me on here, friend request me on steam, and my friend on steam. You gunna knock on my door next? Come on.

Under literally any other circumstance I'd love to PvP you, and not run away, as I'm sure I'd learn something. But as the result of you getting mad? Come on man, this is petty. This is how plebeians act, I thought this was an intellectual community.

who are you humiliating exactly?

Himself.

If you're going to insult me at least give some reason, an example, some proof, put some effort into it. If not you might as well just call me a stinky do do head for all I'm concerned.

 

[Calhoun]

snip

This is exactly why you've been getting these responses. By your own admission you don't participate in proper PvP, yet you believe a suggestion that is based on incorrect suppositions should be implemented. How do you not understand that.

 

[Genoblyes]

I didn't read this soup of what seems to be pointless arguing between someone who's never had a real PVP encounter and seasoned veterans who are very knowledgable about the game, but it seems you're entire argument @Optadomus is invalidated simply by the fact that jump inhibitors exist. I read your post about blocks not even taking damage because people jump away when shields are low, well this is only true in some cases. In the first example; your opponent is so caught up in the fight they forget to turn their inhibitor on, which in this case your point is valid. However that's a player error and can't be blamed on the current state of PVP in the game. Secondly, the opponent is much larger so they are able to jump away, now this is a thing in itself as ships who have jumped can be tracked fairly easily. Not to mention even if your opponent outmassed you to the point where you force them to escape, well that's major bragging rights. And lastly, maybe you didn't properly design your ship to have enough jump inhibitors to effectively inhibit your opponent. This seems to be YOUR problem, so before suggesting a massive, and let me add, quite ludicrous overhaul, please improve your ship designs rather than invoking a massive group flogging.

 

[Optapodamus]

This is exactly why you've been getting these responses. By your own admission you don't participate in proper PvP, yet you believe a suggestion that is based on incorrect suppositions should be implemented. How do you not understand that.

Proper Pvp? Matey...

 

[kulbolen]

If you're going to insult me at least give some reason, an example, some proof, put some effort into it. If not you might as well just call me a stinky do do head for all I'm concerned.

i didnt insult you, im not sure why youre qouting me. im calling into question all the insulting stuff you typed, though.

 

[Zyrr]

Sigh.
To prove what? I never claimed that I could beat everyone in PvP, in fact I claimed that I only fight battles that I have the overwhelming advantage and when I initiate the attack, usually a surprise attack. Otherwise I flee. Soo you really want to sit around and wait for days for me to plan a surprise attack? Or is it that you don't think I can escape interdiction? In a 2 million mass ship? Because those are the only claims I've made. Can't test my hypothetical theory as it would require a lot of balance changes, you all proved that to me.

I seriously doubt you're this excited because you're intellectually stimulated. You're mad, because I've insulted your friend, which I was completely justified and took no pleasure in btw. So mad you've even go so far as to message me on here, friend request me on steam, and my friend on steam. You gunna knock on my door next? Come on.

Under literally any other circumstance I'd love to PvP you, and not run away, as I'm sure I'd learn something. But as the result of you getting mad? Come on man, this is petty. This is how plebeians act, I thought this was an intellectual community.





If you're going to insult me at least give some reason, an example, some proof, put some effort into it. If not you might as well just call me a stinky do do head for all I'm concerned.

So you won't fight me on a zero risk, BP-spawned-for-you basis after flaunting your ship, PVP experience and hours played? Ok, so fight someone else. I don't care. I want to prove to you intellectually that you're wrong in every respect, that your JD isn't all that, 2mil mass or whatever nonsense isn't all that, that a ship with less shields and less mass can hold you down and kill you, whatever. I don't want or need a reason. Let's fight.

 

[Calhoun]

Proper Pvp? Matey...

Yes, proper PvP. As is done by the majority of starmade players. Do you still fail to understand that your suggestion affects the entire game?

 

[Genoblyes]

Optapodamus, post: 349464, member: 442982"]Proper Pvp? Matey...

Yes, in this context I am considering "proper PVP" to be an actual fight between you and one of these people. Rather than you blowing up 200 mass starter ships and considering yourself a PVP expert for doing so. Infact I encourage you and your opponent to fight UNFAIRLY. After observing your intellectual abilities I imagine you need an atleast 5:1 advantage to even make it fair




Ps infact I will fight you outmassed 40:1 for the meme so I can record it and play Sabaton 40-1 over it

 

[Tunk]

I logged in for the first time in like 6 months just to let you know that honestly I'd like to see a duel between Zyrr and this amazing upstart.

Zyrr has full access to my dedicated build server, should you feel up to the challenge just accept it and he can whitelist you, spawn any ship you upload and fight to the death.
Should you not, well let it be known that you have tarred your own name with yellow.

 

[Optapodamus]

I didn't read this soup of what seems to be pointless arguing between someone who's never had a real PVP encounter and seasoned veterans who are very knowledgable about the game, but it seems you're entire argument @Optadomus is invalidated simply by the fact that jump inhibitors exist. I read your post about blocks not even taking damage because people jump away when shields are low, well this is only true in some cases. In the first example; your opponent is so caught up in the fight they forget to turn their inhibitor on, which in this case your point is valid. However that's a player error and can't be blamed on the current state of PVP in the game. Secondly, the opponent is much larger so they are able to jump away, now this is a thing in itself as ships who have jumped can be tracked fairly easily. Not to mention even if your opponent outmassed you to the point where you force them to escape, well that's major bragging rights. And lastly, maybe you didn't properly design your ship to have enough jump inhibitors to effectively inhibit your opponent. This seems to be YOUR problem, so before suggesting a massive, and let me add, quite ludicrous overhaul, please improve your ship designs rather than invoking a massive group flogging.

My strategy has always been about simply winning, by any means. You all are kinda like how armies used to just face each other in neat little lines and shoot, and me I'm more like modern armies, using any means necessary to secure the win with as little chance of failure as possible. But who am I to judge? It's chivalrous to fight in such a way, I can see how that could be rewarding. Honorable like samurai whereas I'm more like the Ninja.

This is a lynching isn't it? You are absolutely right about that. It's so wonderful to see people join together against a common enemy lol.

But why?
If I'm an idiot why not just ignore me? Isn't the world filled with idiots? I can't imagine they have such long conversations with every idiotic idea that is presented here. Had I posted a suggestion to replace all bricks with toaster cats and unicorn monkeys would I have been challenged to a duel? Lmao Good sir your toaster cats idea has offended my honor, I challenge you to a duel! Or is it because I'm stupid? Hey guys look at this idiot lets all tell him he's stupid and then PvP him to make sure he knows! He needs to know he's stupid guys! Imagine I put you lot in the special ed class your head would explode.

For my idea to cause any kind of commotion it would have to at least make people afraid enough to think it might be accepted. I can't imagine why else. With so many people commenting and trying sooo hard to shut it down it's really something to have made such a stir. I honestly didn't even think it would be such a big deal lol. Even bad publicity is good publicity! Somehow! Notice me sempai, notice meeee

The kicker is getting challenged. It's an admission of failure to reason. "I can't reason with you so I'll fight and that'll make me right". Even though the only thing that can be disproved by PvP in my argument is if I can escape interdiction in a 2 million mass ship. Which, even that, doesn't need to be proven because either I can and it changes nothing, or I can't and there's obviously a problem with the warp inhibitors imo.

But I'm sure I'll be called a chicken for not going along with the PvP despite all reason, luckily I've watched all three of the Back to the future trilogy so I know that if I give in to being called a chicken I'll get into that car wreck that'll ruin the rest of my life. Great Scott!

Well it's been fun everyone but I think we're done here. Looks like everyone's well beyond listening to reason, but then again none of you were actually debating unbiased the entire time. If you had you'd have admitted when you were wrong or when I was right. That's how mature people have debates . Unless your seriously going to try and argue that I was completely wrong about every single thing lmaooo. But hey! You do you, I'm sure resorting to fighting every time you can't reason with someone will work out great when you're married. Zing!
Mic Drop.