Salvage beams are boring

[badmojo]

In my opinion the salvage beam system is overpowered and adds nothing but problems to the overall balance of the game. I think they either need major changes to the way they work, or they need to be replaced with something like a mining drill.

The problem as I see it is their long range and low power requirement. Even a novice builder can throw together a planet eater in very little time, and mine thousands upon thousands of blocks in even less time. It makes mining for materials boring, because it's so easy.

Because mining is so easy in this game, players accumulate massive amounts of items, therefore recipes have to balanced accordingly. So we end up with a game where we destroy vast amounts of the world, in order to build a few ships.

There's also the situation that salvage arrays can inflict more destruction than weapon systems of the same size. Obviously this doesn't work in most combat because you can't salvage unless the entity is overheated or decayed, but it's a good example of the problem with the current salvage beams.

How can they be fixed? Off the top of my head I would suggest lowering their range & effectiveness. But, really I would rather see a drill type system be introduced. With the new rail based turret setups we could make some really nice mining systems. I would love it if we had to do something like dock to an asteroid/planet and then use a drilling arm to dig down into it.

I haven't put much thought to the fixes/replacements, so don't focus on my ideas too much, I just wanted to see what other people thought of the existing salvage beam systems, and any suggestions they had to improve/replace them.

 

[Deserea]

Gonna post this link here, http://starmadedock.net/threads/asteroid-wrangling-a-new-way-to-mine.22455/

Im against it at the moment, but i am open to discussions on it, and if a balanced idea is presented that keeps both systems in place ill gladly support the idea in the link ^^

 

[Comradecolonel]

Badmojo I'm in the same place you are. I want mining to be less tedious and boring but im not sure of any simple changes that should be made. Salvage beam cannot be removed or altered in any major way. If they were then a lot of people would not be happy.

The problem isn't really salvage beams themselves but how they match up with the rest of the game. You spend barely any resources to make a salvage beam but it gives you so much in return. I definitely think they should be nerfed in some way but there are many ways to do it. you could increase resource requirements or limit range and power. You could also create a negative grouping bonus, which will make huge salvager require more thought to create.

I also think there should be some sort of high-powered salvaging technique. Not sure about anything that requires lots of physics calculations but it would be nice if there were different mining methods. Sadly there is very little I can think of off the top of my head that would fit will within the game.

 

[icky]

i agree salvage stuff is op, but then again all the servers i end up on have MASSIVE mining bonuses like x35 or x60! honestly ive never played the game properly on single player with default settings, i always just go into creative mode and build. i wish more servers would just leave the game the way it was designed to be.

hell, i think new players should be given a 3-block newb cube and the handheld salvage gun thing and thats it, but thats my opinion. i like starting games like this with nothing. it makes me appreciate the stuff i get later in the game even more.

 

[jayman38]

It might be an interesting mechanic to have the salvage system "wear out" over time, as if it were a drill. As if the strain of salvaging actually stripped elements away from the salvaging system itself. However, if this were to be implemented, I think the salvage system needs to be altered, so that a single large group of salvage modules can create an ultra-wide beam. That way, it would not be such a pain to fix the system. Since many salvage arrays are checkerboard in nature, replacing multiple sticks instead of one large mass would be even more annoying to replace than one giant mass. On the other hand, if the modules simply disappear after they wear out, one could still use the large dimensions set in Advanced Build Mode to fill them up with fresh new modules all at once.

I'm also a fan of fire-and-forget passive mining systems. (Example: Have a salvage array on the surface of a planet, which gradually fills its inventory without actually ripping up the planet at all. A salvage system that wears out would add a new, perhaps interesting, perhaps annoying game mechanic that requires that players revisit their mining bases once in a while to rebuild what has worn out.)

 

[badmojo]

I was thinking more about the drill idea I had, I think it could really improve the whole salvaging/mining expereince. Rather than 1 salvage beam shooting a single block at range, we would have a drill bit block that removes 5 blocks when it touches them, one block in front of the drill bit and the 4 blocks around it. Longer drills would mine faster, wider drills would remove more area.

With a drill system we could still accomplish the same things as the beams, it would just require more interaction from the players while mining. It would be easy enough to construct a large drill array and drive into asteroids, ending up with the same eating behavior that the beams have now. But, it would also be possible to construct a semi autonomus drill system where you dock to an asteroid or planet and have extendable arms that move around a small number of drills, you could even throw down some rails on a planet and have the drill system eating its way along. until there's nothing but rails left.

Obviously, all this can already be done with salvage beams, but it's just so easy to float around and press fire, there's no point in getting more advanced with it. If you give people an easy option, 99% of the time they'll use it.

 

[Winterhome]

Salvaging is boring, sure, but making it less effective or requiring more interaction will backfire horribly.

 

[badmojo]

Salvaging is boring, sure, but making it less effective or requiring more interaction will backfire horribly.

Why? If the game is balanced accordingly, spending time mining should serve the same purpose. I don't see how making the process more involved would make things worse.

Sure, if you just make it less effective and more involved without balancing things, it would suck horribly, thankfully that's not what I'm suggesting.

 

[Winterhome]

I don't see how making the process more involved would make things worse.

Because no matter how you try to do it, it's an extremely repetitive task that takes up far more time than you spend doing anything else other than, possibly, designing titans.

No matter how "entertaining" the minigame of mining is made, I can guarantee that a huge portion of the player base, myself included, would grow to absolutely fucking hate it within under a month. At least the way it is right now, we have the option to go out and do something else while we wait for a well-built mining rig to finish its work.

Simplicity and automation potential is king here.

 

[Deserea]

Because no matter how you try to do it, it's an extremely repetitive task that takes up far more time than you spend doing anything else other than, possibly, designing titans.

No matter how "entertaining" the minigame of mining is made, I can guarantee that a huge portion of the player base, myself included, would grow to absolutely fucking hate it within under a month. At least the way it is right now, we have the option to go out and do something else while we wait for a well-built mining rig to finish its work.

Simplicity and automation potential is king here.

Ive said very much the same, in the thread i linked elsewhere. Hell a well built mining vessel takes alot of the tedium out of it, like the one i have now, 30 minutes and ive got so much stuff i cant move, and can spend a bunch of hours building.

 

[badmojo]

All I'm hearing is that some of you guys don't like mining, therefore any improvements or changes are unwanted because you've already established a mining routine that requires minimal work or thinking on your part.

There's no reason you can't automate a new system. All I'm really suggesting is that rather than zapping a block with a beam, you touch the block with a drill, I don't see how that would be the end of the world. It's a hypothetical situation, and you guys respond like I'm nerf'ing the hell out of salvaging, and forcing people to spend way more hours doing it for way less return....wtf?

 

[Winterhome]

All I'm hearing is that some of you guys don't like mining, therefore any improvements or changes are unwanted because you've already established a mining routine that requires minimal work or thinking on your part.

There's no reason you can't automate a new system. All I'm really suggesting is that rather than zapping a block with a beam, you touch the block with a drill, I don't see how that would be the end of the world. It's a hypothetical situation, and you guys respond like I'm nerf'ing the hell out of salvaging, and forcing people to spend way more hours doing it for way less return....wtf?

Because automating drills and other such things would require extremely large, complex, and laggy systems that would effectively border on making servers unplayable.

Every person I know does one of two things - either they take out some tiny, sad little rinky-dink asteroid miner and chew through asteroids for hours, or they use an automatic rail-based planet miner for hours. Most people prefer the latter because planets are the only viable source of materials in almost every case.

Basically, you're proposing a system that would require more time, more effort, longer setups, and higher skill requirements in order to actually be capable of performing on par with the current beams, in addition to having a very good chance of completely destroying a server's playability via collision handling lag.

The only scenario in which contact drills would be capable of coming anywhere near the effectiveness of beams is in the case of tiny, tiny asteroid miners - the kinds that take 30 seconds and up to mine a single asteroid.

 

[badmojo]

Yeah, okay. Whatever. Stick your fingers in your ears, pretend numbers can't be changed, and keep repeating the same things over and over. That'll change my mind.

 

[Ithirahad]

Because automating drills and other such things would require extremely large, complex, and laggy systems that would effectively border on making servers unplayable.

Every person I know does one of two things - either they take out some tiny, sad little rinky-dink asteroid miner and chew through asteroids for hours, or they use an automatic rail-based planet miner for hours. Most people prefer the latter because planets are the only viable source of materials in almost every case.

Basically, you're proposing a system that would require more time, more effort, longer setups, and higher skill requirements in order to actually be capable of performing on par with the current beams, in addition to having a very good chance of completely destroying a server's playability via collision handling lag.

The only scenario in which contact drills would be capable of coming anywhere near the effectiveness of beams is in the case of tiny, tiny asteroid miners - the kinds that take 30 seconds and up to mine a single asteroid.

What if mining worked totally differently? What if that one little asteroid you watched some noob mine had as much resources as a plate of a planet, but it also took a lot longer to extract the resources? And that planet you are casually wiping out of existence simply passively generated resources as opposed to acting as a massive asteroid?

 

[Deserea]

All I'm hearing is that some of you guys don't like mining, therefore any improvements or changes are unwanted because you've already established a mining routine that requires minimal work or thinking on your part.

There's no reason you can't automate a new system. All I'm really suggesting is that rather than zapping a block with a beam, you touch the block with a drill, I don't see how that would be the end of the world. It's a hypothetical situation, and you guys respond like I'm nerf'ing the hell out of salvaging, and forcing people to spend way more hours doing it for way less return....wtf?

And as ive said, have BOTH, BOTHHHHHHHH, keep the mining beam for those who like to mine that way, and add the mining drill. Those who want to build awesome mining rigs with a beam can keep doing such and enjoy the game that way, those who want to do it with a drill can too. Neither gets nerfed, both take the same amount of time, and provide the same amount of resources. No nerfing needed at all.

Dont remove one for the other, add both, or do neither, the more alternatives that do the same thing but in a different way, in the same amount of time, the better the game can be because it supports different play styles. Make the mining beams double or triple their current cost, because of their more advanced nature(ya know beam technology that vacuums up a planets resources without destroying them), and make the starting box contain mining drills instead, bam, instant solution. you start off with bad technology and can progress :D

I DO however, agree with the lag part of what you responded to rather rudely. Contact lag is already a problem for servers.

 

[badmojo]

Contact lag might be an issue, but what happens when that contact results in the blocks being removed and put into storage, does it still cause the same lag?

I'm not really here to discuss the lag subject, I'm not a programmer or familiar with how starmade is built, so it seems pointless for me to even comment on that. In my opinion, we should be discussing what is good for the game and then letting the developers figure out the technical aspects.

Have both? Yeah, I guess that would work if you can balance them against each other.

 

[Deserea]

Contact lag might be an issue, but what happens when that contact results in the blocks being removed and put into storage, does it still cause the same lag?

I'm not really here to discuss the lag subject, I'm not a programmer or familiar with how starmade is built, so it seems pointless for me to even comment on that. In my opinion, we should be discussing what is good for the game and then letting the developers figure out the technical aspects.

Have both? Yeah, I guess that would work if you can balance them against each other.

Yes it very well could.
What is good for the game right now, is trying to get it optimized to reduce the lag thats already in effect.

Simple, With the system Ithiariad mentioned.

Salvage beams completely remove an asteroid/planet plate, with a 0.5 bonus given for all resources from asteroids only, the asteroids will keep respawning as they do now, planets wont.
Mining Drills while they do remove the blocks do it at a much slower pace, get a 0.5 bonus given for resources from planets only, and the area where they are placed, will respawn after a set time(planet core drills anyone? you could hook a drill up to a rail and have it dig down to the core, then retract, allowing the entire area to respawn.)

 

[nightrune]

I find the beams entertaining. The drills in space engineers were boring to me. I think you'll get a smattering of different opinions. It does get reptetive after awhile. In the long term I think mining will move to NPCs as a late game. So you'll do less of it and more other things, and really you'll start to buy thing mores often then mine at some point. I'm not sure it really needs a fix. I think its just because we only have half the game yet there is no where to go after mining. No real economy to swap to after you are done swapping time for materials to money for materials.

 

[badmojo]

Another issue I have with the beams, if we can use beams to salvage blocks and move them into our ships, we should be able to "beam" items to other ships via a similar method, but we have to physically dock for that. It just seems like the the salvage beams are out of place compared to the other systems we have, like they're a placeholder thats been around too long.

 

[Ithirahad]

IF salvage beams are boring do planetary smart mining:

1º -> Build an automated miner.
2º -> Put the miner near a planet and press on on the "logic thing" that makes works whitouth the need of a human.
3º -> Press Alt + Tab and do other things.
4º -> Return to starmade on 10 minutes or more, this time changes with the size of the miner.
5º -> Move the miner around the planet until the planet it´s depleted

= Profit using a few time in game.

...If this is what efficient, rewarding, and satisfactory mining mechanics look like in this game (And it is), then obviously they need to be reworked. The great thing about Alpha, is that crappy mechanics can be changed, if someone offers a superior proposal and it gets heard.