Replace surface shields with bubble shields.

[Bobson]

So, skin hugging shields vs bubble shields has been a fairly common thing in Sci fi, my arguments are strongly for the latter, for the following reasons:

- Provides a reason to armour ships in addition to shields, to protect against extremely close range (<5/10 meters) attacks.
- Gives fighters the ability to damage larger ships, but doing so will be a risky strategy that involves getting up very close to the enemy ship, in range of pulse damage, meaning solo fighters without support will still get annihilated.
- Could make strategies such as boarding a viable tactic, via the use of explosive lance (disintegrators on a stick) & stop beams, then actually having the ability to damage things in the ship with personal weapons rather than being completely prevented from doing so by personal shields.

Now, I'm not a programmer, so I have no idea how this would work. Maybe something like a shell of invisible blocks that can be travelled through but block things like beams, cannons & missiles, lighting up when they do so.

Maybe they automatically spawn 5/10 blocks away from the nearest ship block or something, or possibly they have to be projected from projector blocks connected to the shield capacitors & recharges in a similar manner to control blocks, allowing for effects to be added to the shields, like colours. This would also allow for mechanics such as overlapping shields to strengthen one area in particular, for example, a ship with heavy frontal shields but weaker side & rear shields.

So. Thoughts?

 

[Viridis00]

We've had threads on this before.

Replacement shouldn't happen. Maybe an option for either type, but they're basically the same thing if not actually a worse defense in your suggestion's case because of "explosive lances". If something like variable shielding was added to the game, it shouldn't need to be exclusive to just bubble shields either because the laminate types of shields in other sci-fi have done that too.

 

[Bobson]

We've had threads on this before.

Replacement shouldn't happen. Maybe an option for either type, but they're basically the same thing if not actually a worse defense in your suggestion's case because of "explosive lances". If something like variable shielding was added to the game, it shouldn't need to be exclusive to just bubble shields either because the laminate types of shields in other sci-fi have done that too.

yes, they would be a worse defense, because as they currently work they make a bunch of stuff nearly useless.

e: My point being that it would encourage use of stuff other than a pile of shields.

 

[CyberTao]

I've heard that we had them before, huge hit to performance, but that was before my time. My problem with this has always been "what about that really long ship with the tall bridge area?" Could the bubble surround the entire bounding box of the ship, making that lots of space for larger ships to get in? Or is it set on set block distance from the hull, in which case I worry for hangers. Or is it a block that projects a shield X blocks away, which I would have to be concerned about the overall shapes of ships getting more angular?

 

[Bobson]

I've heard that we had them before, huge hit to performance, but that was before my time. My problem with this has always been "what about that really long ship with the tall bridge area?" Could the bubble surround the entire bounding box of the ship, making that lots of space for larger ships to get in? Or is it set on set block distance from the hull, in which case I worry for hangers. Or is it a block that projects a shield X blocks away, which I would have to be concerned about the overall shapes of ships getting more angular?

I'd suggest that it should be a set distance from the hull, or projector blocks that would have to be added with the ships shape in mind. With the distance from the hull one, could possibly add shield nullifier blocks that would prevent shields from spawning inside a hangar?

 

[ltmauve]

Let me see: Encourages titans to ram each other. If you thought long range battles were laggy enough now, wait until the server constantly needs to be checking collisions for every single ship in combat.
Makes griefing and stealing ships millions of times easier. No need to get a huge block of weapons and power to destroy someone's ship, because you can do it with just a pistol. Regardless of how long it took to build or gather the resources for.

 

[Bobson]

Let me see: Encourages titans to ram each other. If you thought long range battles were laggy enough now, wait until the server constantly needs to be checking collisions for every single ship in combat.
Makes griefing and stealing ships millions of times easier. No need to get a huge block of weapons and power to destroy someone's ship, because you can do it with just a pistol. Regardless of how long it took to build or gather the resources for.

these are all things which can be solved with other updates. I'm not assuming the shield update would happen in a vacuum and then the game would never be updated again. This is just one suggestion in many for a solution to some of the current issues.

 

[Viridis00]

these are all things which can be solved with other updates. I'm not assuming the shield update would happen in a vacuum and then the game would never be updated again. This is just one suggestion in many for a solution to some of the current issues.

Like what though? It's not a good idea to just introduce things and say we'll fix it later with no idea of how to fix it. That's everything that's wrong with modern gaming and publishers right now.

Ramming can't be stopped because you even said these shields encourage explosive lancing. By nature of the shield, anyone can slip through with the tip of a ship and just unload on parked and even manned ships.
If bubble shields are physical and stop anyone through their bounds, literally all the points you brought up are null and just the same as regular shields. That might not be bad for just variety sake, but performance is the issue there. If you use actual block entities like you suggested for a bubble shield—
Well, use the build helper and make the most massive ellipsoid you can and watch your frame rate plummet. If not block entities, it still offers nothing aside from just different visuals.

I think variable shields are the only good part of this suggestion. That could be really interesting. Everything else has too many drawbacks for very little if any gain to the game.

 

[Glutton]

Since this thread came up again, I'd like to make mention of the logic and physics of a bubble shield:

To allow physical objects to pass through, logically you would need to have missles and cannon fire (assuming cannons are projectiles and not energy) to pass through it, making the shield useless. If you did not allow them through, but allowed ships to go through, there would have to be a logical reason for that to happen. You could say that shields limit small objects from getting through by damaging them and taking the damage on the shields, but that would mean ships would need to be damaged when passing through it as well.

One bubble shield that is always mentioned is Star Trek:

Spoiler: Text from Memory Alpha

Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields were "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that came into contact with the shields was harmlessly deflected away. This was important in starship combat, as shields were essential for hull protection. When the shields were up, only minor hull damage would be expected during combat. In the 23rd and 24th century, without deflector shields weapons were capable of causing catastrophic damage to starship hulls almost immediately. (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan; Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country; Star Trek Generations)

Continuous or extremely powerful energy discharges could progressively dissipate the integrity of a shield to the point of failure. Shield capacities varied according to many variables, from the power available to environmental concerns, making definitive and universal calculations of how much damage they could take difficult to estimate. Therefore, during combat tactical officers would continually report on shield strength, usually as a percentage of total effectiveness, with 100% meaning that the shields were at full capacity, and lower percentage scores indicating weaker shield conditions. Specific sections of the shield grid could take more damage than other sections, and be reinforced with additional power reserves, so tactical officers would report on the health of the shields by section if need be. Shields were said to be "holding" if damage was not sufficient enough to allow a compromise; if the shields were "buckling" or "failing," then a total loss of shield protection was imminent. (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)

According to their logic, ships would still not be able to enter them. Just a mention for the sake of RP or lovers of how the technology would interact. Having shields that bubble out would either have to sacrifice usefulness or logic unless there is another thought process.

Just something to think about. I'd be cool with testing out bubble shields to see if they really are a viable option.

 

[Bobson]

Like what though? It's not a good idea to just introduce things and say we'll fix it later with no idea of how to fix it. That's everything that's wrong with modern gaming and publishers right now.

Ramming can't be stopped because you even said these shields encourage explosive lancing. By nature of the shield, anyone can slip through with the tip of a ship and just unload on parked and even manned ships.
If bubble shields are physical and stop anyone through their bounds, literally all the points you brought up are null and just the same as regular shields. That might not be bad for just variety sake, but performance is the issue there. If you use actual block entities like you suggested for a bubble shield—
Well, use the build helper and make the most massive ellipsoid you can and watch your frame rate plummet. If not block entities, it still offers nothing aside from just different visuals.

I think variable shields are the only good part of this suggestion. That could be really interesting. Everything else has too many drawbacks for very little if any gain to the game.

Ramming is and will always be an issue until the lagging that results from it is prevented in some way, I don't think it's fair to make gameplay decisions based on what is essentially a bug.

Yes, with this, very short range attacks would be the most effective - However combined with a buff to armour, along with well built ships using both shields, armour, and more active forms of defence (Use of push/stop guns, forward/back afterburners, etc.) to prevent enemies from getting under their shield. And there's also the issue that getting under the shield of your enemy puts them under your shield also.

You can already do many things in the game that cause lag, one more won't cause an issue.

To be honest, if there's another technique that can solve the current issues, then I'm all for it, but as of right now, the shield mechanics are a little bit unusual, & they render armour almost entirely useless for large ships. and make boarding/attacking from the inside actually completely useless.

 

[ltmauve]

You want to make armor worthwhile for ships? Have the damage done to the shields reduced by the armor of the block hit.

 

[Glutton]

Ramming is and will always be an issue until the lagging that results from it is prevented in some way, I don't think it's fair to make gameplay decisions based on what is essentially a bug.

I think he is referring to the game play style of ramming two giant ships together and unloading their payload instead of the lag issue. Baiscally it could force combat to be silly watching large ships hump each other until one blows a giant hole in another ship.

Woah this is gettin spicy

 

[godmars]

You want to make armor worthwhile for ships? Have the damage done to the shields reduced by the armor of the block hit.

How exactly would the existence or lack thereof of armor increase shield mitigation? Even if there was a logical explanation for it, it still pushes shields when to my knowledge armor tanking is being worked on as being a more viable alternative (then it is now at least)

 

[Viridis00]

Ramming is and will always be an issue until the lagging that results from it is prevented in some way, I don't think it's fair to make gameplay decisions based on what is essentially a bug.

See

I think he is referring to the game play style of ramming two giant ships together and unloading their payload instead of the lag issue. Baiscally it could force combat to be silly watching large ships hump each other until one blows a giant hole in another ship.

Woah this is gettin spicy

Not really getting spicy or anything, just pointing things out. I'd expect the same critique from anything I suggest for the game also. Good solutions come by pointing out the bad parts. Most of the mechanics surrounding bubble shields just don't add anything of worth in relation to all the problems surrounding it. I still really like the idea of variable shields though, but there's no reason to make them exclusive to bubble shields just give bubble shields a purpose.

You can already do many things in the game that cause lag, one more won't cause an issue.

Yes it will. The more laggy features you add, the worse the game becomes. Fix it later isn't a solution especially when you have no ideas on how to fix it later.

To be honest, if there's another technique that can solve the current issues, then I'm all for it, but as of right now, the shield mechanics are a little bit unusual, & they render armour almost entirely useless for large ships. and make boarding/attacking from the inside actually completely useless.

Armor is already planned to be used with a new HP system, so it will have a more valuable role.

 

[Lecic]

I am not for bubble shields.
One, they're a massive performance hit.
Two, they make turrets hard to hit and are actually a nerf to smaller ships, since they need to get right up close to do turret damage now, which makes them hilariously easy to kill.
Third, you either need to use boxdim or distance from hull. If you use boxdim, it puts ships with decorative antennas and bridges as a disadvantage because it gives larger gaps between shield and hull. If you use distance from hull, you get weird errors with hangars and large rooms, because there's no way to easily tell if you've got inside or outside hull.

Also, I dislike the concept of bubble shields within Starmade. Pretty much every sci-fi franchise uses them. Why can't we use skin shields?

 

[questorhank]

Maybe there could be a block that increases "physical strength" which is how easy/hard it is for a ship to get through the shields. So when going through shields your ship slows down/stops/bounces off. So people have to choose between higher shield capacity or stopping ramming attacks

 

[Viridis00]

Two, they make turrets hard to hit and are actually a nerf to smaller ships, since they need to get right up close to do turret damage now, which makes them hilariously easy to kill.

That's a good point too. Shields aren't shared between the master ship and turrets for balance. Bubble shields effectively bypass that balance by their very nature.

 

[Glutton]

Not really getting spicy or anything, just pointing things out. I'd expect the same critique from anything I suggest for the game also. Good solutions come by pointing out the bad parts. Most of the mechanics surrounding bubble shields just don't add anything of worth in relation to all the problems surrounding it. I still really like the idea of variable shields though, but there's no reason to make them exclusive to bubble shields just give bubble shields a purpose.

The Joke




Your Head

 

[Keptick]

ahahahahahahahahahahahaha, I should count the number of threads that have been created on bubble shields.

Hint: It's over 9000!

 

[Crusade]

Yikes. This thread again. Okay, to clear up any confusion, we've had bubbles. They didn't work out.
/confusion