PVP focused gameplay is the majority over all the other playstyles

[MacThule]

Comradecolonel
Very good observations on lack of competitive controls. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the game needs some smart, preset modes. I have seen servers attempt to run "Battle Mode," but for whatever reasons it never really took off. I think a server doing battle mode needs a way to set standard passive incomes, and should probably have its database well-stocked with an excellent selection of small to medium combat ships so players can just pop in and start fighting. Actually it needs a lot, there need to be rankings too if we want to see competition.

In starmade no matter how good your ships may be, the power of your faction seems more dependent on how many resources you have and how many warm bodies you can recruit.

It is totally possible to just join up with a major faction and learn from them. This makes it hard for new players, and doesn't create a truly competitive environment.

This is where the long-term persistent universe in Starmade struggles most, IMO. Accomodating new players. I built factions on servers a few times through very engaged recruitment and training to get up to 8 or 10 active players (mostly noobs, but the occasional vet). That makes for a fun faction, but in the end I pivoted and started mostly running my faction as a public farm team for other factions because became focused on swelling servers. I figured out how to quickly recruit new joins, give them access to cheap mining rigs and a shop set up to facilitate profitable trade (which can only happen at a loss - still - in the Starmade economy, but in the end it turned out that some players were more than happy to offer good deals in exchange for sending them conscripts) train them to navigate, basic build skills, mine, trade and get around...

It helped a lot, but it's very labor intensive. Even after installing multiple rooms filled with displays showing tips and helpful info, its just never enough and there are always still 100 questions that every new player asks.

It would be fantastic if the vanilla Spawn had a shop set up where new players could trade at a profit, where they could easily see some basic ships and buy them, where they could book/reserve 1 safe parking space long term, meet other new players and faction recruiters in safety, and where they good get vital info and training about basic stuff like "always faction and dock your ship so you don"t get robbed." There's YouTube, but so many just want to learn by doing, and when they discover that you need to rely on multiple third-party platforms to succeed at the game without months of experience, they just drop it.

Instead it's like "they'll learn or they won't." Which used to be my position as well, but the difference between leaving noobs to fend and giving the a helping hand at start is massive. If they have support, like 1/4 of them end up staying for at least a few weeks. When I just leave them to fend, 9/10 are gone in under 3 days.

Schine installing a substantial vanilla Spawn complex with extended training, tips and info (in-game), with supported trade and a wide safe space (a few sectors) with at least some access to mining would do wonders for player retention. 95% of new players in this game absolutely need to be recruited by a competent faction in order to learn the game, but players just don't want to carry that burden. There needs to be a starter AI faction recruiting and training them standard.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Well-designed code at a high level (mainly following the Liskov Substitution Principle and Dependency Inversion Principles of SOLID) wouldn't have that many issues with this, especially the NPC one (that'd be a massive violation of DIP). Of course, StarMade's code might not be well-designed at a high level, and that would explain just about everything wrong with the game...

Hehe, yes, I think we can all tell he is not doing that or else we would not be seeing things break as often as they do, but that is not necessarily a weakness in his methodology in regards to the final product. Schine often writes around performance and not convenience. I'm not a Java dev, so I don't know how well that sort of thing compiles down in that language, but in my experience with MVC and Angular development at least, is that it tends to be a tradeoff. Various forms of SOLID development require a strong framework the creates intermediate steps to each process. This could create choke points in a game like starmade where such dependencies are being checked thousands if not millions of times a second.

...By the time you've reached that level of play, you've long ago left the game mechanics that you're actually meant to interact with. Your not really designing weapons to have a specific impact, just designing them around the tick rate of the server or the limitations of the game engine. Again not that appealing to me, whereas I find thinking about the core game mechanics to be far more enjoyable.

When compared to other online PvP games starmade lacks two qualities. First of all it is not really competitive. There always the opportunity for players to have an unfair advantage and there is no way in the stock game to face off against players of similar skill. You just get thrown into the lions den if you try to play online. It is totally possible to just join up with a major faction and learn from them. This makes it hard for new players, and doesn't create a truly competitive environment...

All competitive games become about interacting with the game engine at the higher levels. In RPGs, it becomes about understanding how powers stack, AI agros, and predicting when yours and the enemies abilities will cooldown etc. In FPSs, it becomes about knowing how long you can hold down a tigger before recoil becomes more conterproductive than waiting for it to cool down at a given range, or being able to guess how far you need to lead a target based on muzzle velocity and lag. RTSs become about understanding unit ROI and synergies, manipulating Moral conditions, and manipulating AI preferences to your advantage.

You say it is unfair to throw new players into the same servers as experienced players, but it is hardly the first online game where this has been okay. Pretty much every arena game ever has this limit. Think of how many FPSs there are out there where you expect to spend your first week getting head-shot over and over and over again until you learn the maps and weapons. These games are still fun. One mechanic Starmade could perhaps utilize would be a veteranship status bound to player accounts based on hours played so that servers could control what experience level of players they are allowing similar to how MWO uses tier level to sort players, but this feature would need to be coupled with some method of pushing players and their assets through the tiers without breaking up their factions which may be an unreasonable expectation

...The second quality is some sort of limit for players and factions. I don't advocate this but for it to truly be a fair type of game, you need some sort of weakness for growing and expanding infinitely. There is nothing stopping a faction from growing to a size and power level that is totally unbeatable for others. There is no sort of resistance to growth, aside from player made changes and settings. This again creates an unfair advantage to the no-lifers of the game that just sit around a mine resources to build a monster fleet.

I'm not familiar with Eve Online but I realize that it has these qualities to some degree. I imagine though that their are ways to make it more difficult for factions to completely dominate the world. In starmade no matter how good your ships may be, the power of your faction seems more dependent on how many resources you have and how many warm bodies you can recruit.

This is already a thing. Larger factions still have 1 Homebase. This means they need to spread out to prevent from lagging themselves to death. There are also the limits of technology and pilots. Resources become moot after a certain point, and fighting becomes 100% about who has the better ships and pilots. This means that a hegemony with limitless resources can still be beaten by an up-and-comer with better tech and coordination, such as how most of the Odium factions started doing so poorly in 2017 when they continued to use all the same old strategies that made them unbeatable in 2016.

 

[Nebulon-B_Frigate_FTW]

Hehe, yes, I think we can all tell he is not doing that or else we would not be seeing things break as often as they do, but that is not necessarily a weakness in his methodology in regards to the final product. Schine often writes around performance and not convenience. I'm not a Java dev, so I don't know how well that sort of thing compiles down in that language, but in my experience with MVC and Angular development at least, is that it tends to be a tradeoff. Various forms of SOLID development require a strong framework the creates intermediate steps to each process. This could create choke points in a game like starmade where such dependencies are being checked thousands if not millions of times a second.



All competitive games become about interacting with the game engine at the higher levels. In RPGs, it becomes about understanding how powers stack, AI agros, and predicting when yours and the enemies abilities will cooldown etc. In FPSs, it becomes about knowing how long you can hold down a tigger before recoil becomes more conterproductive than waiting for it to cool down at a given range, or being able to guess how far you need to lead a target based on muzzle velocity and lag. RTSs become about understanding unit ROI and synergies, manipulating Moral conditions, and manipulating AI preferences to your advantage.

You say it is unfair to throw new players into the same servers as experienced players, but it is hardly the first online game where this has been okay. Pretty much every arena game ever has this limit. Think of how many FPSs there are out there where you expect to spend your first week getting head-shot over and over and over again until you learn the maps and weapons. These games are still fun. One mechanic Starmade could perhaps utilize would be a veteranship status bound to player accounts based on hours played so that servers could control what experience level of players they are allowing similar to how MWO uses tier level to sort players, but this feature would need to be coupled with some method of pushing players and their assets through the tiers without breaking up their factions which may be an unreasonable expectation



This is already a thing. Larger factions still have 1 Homebase. This means they need to spread out to prevent from lagging themselves to death. There are also the limits of technology and pilots. Resources become moot after a certain point, and fighting becomes 100% about who has the better ships and pilots. This means that a hegemony with limitless resources can still be beaten by an up-and-comer with better tech and coordination, such as how most of the Odium factions started doing so poorly in 2017 when they continued to use all the same old strategies that made them unbeatable in 2016.

I think that's actually one of the biggest issues with StarMade: there's a focus on performance to enable ships much bigger than most will make, leaving a lot less dev time on making the game stable and fun.

Also, in most FPSes etc., dying isn't a big deal, you don't exactly build your own from scratch. In StarMade, tho, you need to build a ship and all, so being squashed by another player is a problem. There's also more work needed to get a shelter going than in many games like Rust; you get an invincible home base, sure, but it's a time investment that's a little much and most of your wealth will end up on your ship.

 

[Raisinbat]

That's exactly what I said: The parts of the game that encourage non-pvp stuff didn't got developed but the pvp part is very focused on.

If by """FOCUSED ON"""" you mean that RPers constantly complain and whine about being inferior to PVP ships incurring nonsensical and gamebreaking updates to the point where PVP is now so fucked up everyone into it left, it sure is being """FOCUSED ON"""" indeed.

I have NEVER seen a single attempt from schine at making PVP more fun or engaging. Only to beat it into a shape resembling the enterprise so that we can all go spock ourselves.

 

[Nosajimiki]

I think that's actually one of the biggest issues with StarMade: there's a focus on performance to enable ships much bigger than most will make, leaving a lot less dev time on making the game stable and fun.

Also, in most FPSes etc., dying isn't a big deal, you don't exactly build your own from scratch. In StarMade, tho, you need to build a ship and all, so being squashed by another player is a problem. There's also more work needed to get a shelter going than in many games like Rust; you get an invincible home base, sure, but it's a time investment that's a little much and most of your wealth will end up on your ship.

These two ideas are actually more interrelated than you seem to think. I can do a single mining run and build a whole fleet of 5k ships, but a large battleship is a big investment in design time and materials. It is something to strive for, it is that carrot that keeps players motivated to keep working towards something newer and stronger and bigger. If the game does not support big ships and big investments, then player retention suffers not from startup frustration, but from boredom. If the game can only do <5k builds, then people will just make a few ships, fight a few times, then quit because they can't think of anything else to work towards.

 

[Zoolimar]

Also, in most FPSes etc., dying isn't a big deal, you don't exactly build your own from scratch. In StarMade, tho, you need to build a ship and all, so being squashed by another player is a problem.

Why? Unless the server specifically has harsh limitations on the mining the only problems you will have will be initially when you don't have a proper miner. The moment you have a miner with 200-300 beams you could bath in resources. Or more likely drown. Yes spamming 250k mass ships and losing a couple each day may put a strain on you. But in this case you are basically losing equivalent of major battleship fleet detachment.

And as long as you have resources you could just spawn ships from blueprints.

If the game can only do <5k builds, then people will just make a few ships, fight a few times, then quit because they can't think of anything else to work towards.

As an owner of a computer with 4GB ram I could say that I have problems only when the mass of ships on screen goes over 200k (or something close to that). 50k ships seem to work without problems.

 

[MacThule]

Also, in most FPSes etc., dying isn't a big deal, you don't exactly build your own from scratch. In StarMade, tho, you need to build a ship and all, so being squashed by another player is a problem. There's also more work needed to get a shelter going than in many games like Rust; you get an invincible home base, sure, but it's a time investment that's a little much and most of your wealth will end up on your ship.

This problem could be easily cured with mostly existing code. So easily that it's frustrating because it really is a major holdup for free-range PvP on multiplayer servers.

Just a function for Shops that lets owners put docked entities up for sale (shop searches the station it's attached to and returns a list of entities docked from which owner selects then sets price), and allows potential buyers to "test-fly" the ship in virtual creative mode like the shipyard has so they know they aren't getting ripped off.... That and a way to have your Shop automatically make purchases/sales on the market (within user-adjusted tolerance limits on price) to maintain stock levels passively for re-spawning replacement ships ...

 

[Nosajimiki]

This problem could be easily cured with mostly existing code. So easily that it's frustrating because it really is a major holdup for free-range PvP on multiplayer servers.

Just a function for Shops that lets owners put docked entities up for sale (shop searches the station it's attached to and returns a list of entities docked from which owner selects then sets price), and allows potential buyers to "test-fly" the ship in virtual creative mode like the shipyard has so they know they aren't getting ripped off.... That and a way to have your Shop automatically make purchases/sales on the market (within user-adjusted tolerance limits on price) to maintain stock levels passively for re-spawning replacement ships ...

You should get the kiosk blueprint off of LvD. It is a logic system that lets you sell ship blueprints. It works best with servers that use the bar system, but can be configured to take any materials as payment

 

[JinM]

I have NEVER seen a single attempt from schine at making PVP more fun or engaging.

Seems like we two talk about two different games then? I am talking about Starmade that gets a weapon overhaul, and recently got a power update. Booth doesn't help non-pvpers. But new weapons definitely will help pvpers.

Just because rpers can now build ships that are pvp capable, doesnt mean that this helps rpers in their gameplay. You think rpers want the power update. It marginally makes their day easier, but it's not like having an easier day allready means the game is fun for non-pvers. In fact non-pvpers would like actuall added gameplay. Stop making up a narrative about rpers and pvpers and how someone benefits more of the power update.

Non-PvPers would actually benefit from working trading, shipyards, astronaut gameplay, or any gameplay content. If you think rpers have more fun in the game, just because they now have to build reactor blocks differently, then I have to tell you: Wake up! Fun for Non-pvpers is something like trading, missions, minigames, faction relations, politics, items, astronaut weapons. Just because rpers have it easier to build ships now, doesnt mean they have anything more to play within the game. Just stop this focus on the "power 2.0 benefits the rpers" narrative, because how the power mechanics are is absolutely secondary for non-pvp gameplay.

For non-pvpers it matters how pve and trading and all the other allready listed things is.

 

[Zoolimar]

Seems like we two talk about two different games then? I am talking about Starmade that gets a weapon overhaul, and recently got a power update. Booth doesn't help rpers. But new weapons definitely will help pvpers.

Didn't most PVP minded people voiced their displeasure with the update and some of them even added long and detailed descriptions on why exactly they have a problem with it?

The fact that many people who engaged in PVP also left or at least lowered their activity is also a point to the side that update had not much good in it for combat and ship-building concentrated on actual performance of the ship.

 

[JinM]

Didn't most PVP minded people voiced their displeasure with the update and some of them even added long and detailed descriptions on why exactly they have a problem with it?

The fact that many people who engaged in PVP also left or at least lowered their activity is also a point to the side that update had not much good in it for combat and ship-building concentrated on actual performance of the ship.

So a weapons overhaul is not an attempt to make the game more appealing for pvpers?

 

[Raisinbat]

Seems like we two talk about two different games then? I am talking about Starmade that gets a weapon overhaul, and recently got a power update. Booth doesn't help rpers. But new weapons definitely will help pvpers.

Both of which are made to make mechanics more accomodating to RPers.

Just because rpers can now build ships that are pvp capable

They can't. Noone can. 2.0 removed PVP ships from the game.

You think rpers want the power update.

THE ENTIRE MOTHER FUCKING UPDATE WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE INTERIOR SPACE IN SHIPS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT WAS REQUESTED BY ROLEPLAYERS.

Just stop this power "2.0 benefits the rpers" narrative.

THE ENTIRE MOTHER FUCKING UPDATE WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE INTERIOR SPACE IN SHIPS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT WAS REQUESTED BY ROLEPLAYERS.

Stop making up a narrative about rpers and pvpers and how someone benefits more of the power update.

THE ENTIRE MOTHER FUCKING UPDATE WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE INTERIOR SPACE IN SHIPS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT WAS REQUESTED BY ROLEPLAYERS.

Wake up!

CAN'T WAKE UP!

So a weapons overhaul is not an attempt to make to game more appealing for pvpers?

If a cosmetic update hits that removes different colours from blocks, all cosmetic blocks, wedges and slabs, do you think that is appealing for cosmetic builders???

 

[Zoolimar]

So a weapons overhaul is not an attempt to make to game more appealing for pvpers?

That depends on actual implementation. The fact that recoil was not only considered but also made it even to a dev build is enough to question any validity of this update as a boon to PVP play.

 

[JinM]

That depends on actual implementation. The fact that recoil was not only considered but also made it even to a dev build is enough to question any validity of this update as a boon to PVP play.

I see your point and what you are affraid about. Recoil and other new mechanics could turn out to be counter-competetive.

On the other hand please see, that non-pvpers will get no new content besides building with updated textures (and what difference does that?) for the next 8 months until the universe update hopefully is finished.

We maybe can use shipyards again. Horray. No trading. No pve. Nothing new to do with my astronaut. For 8 months. I estimate 2 more months for weapons and then 6 months for universe...

 

[Zoolimar]

I see your point and what you are affraid about. Recoil and other new mechanics could turn out to be counter-competetive.

On the other hand please see, that non-pvpers will get no new content besides building with updated textures (and what difference does that?) for the next 8 months until the universe update hopefully is finished.

No you don't see my point.

People who want to build ships for performance want to have a possibility of making proper balancing of their ships and fiddling with their attributes. To facilitate this there must be a simple understandable base system, that could be used by anyone by just plopping a blob of blocks and additional modules that expand upon it. Instead we got a rigid system seemingly done without consideration for other systems or how it will influence gameplay/ship building.
____________________________________
For example of a good weapon system would be something like this:

-Basic weapon block - damage X, range Y, projectile speed Z, firerate whatever letter else you want to use, guidance for missiles and possibly damage types that actually matter

Using a group of these blocks is enough to get a working weapon of any power by just putting a cube of blocks of needed size. But then you get additional blocks.

-range block - could multiply or cut down the range of the weapon making the energy draw higher or lower
-firerate block - determines how fast the weapon reloads, or how slow. Also could up or lower energy draw
-projectile speed block
-additional effects (damage to shields, armour and whatever else the system can support)

If you squint and look at the current system in the dark and from the back it may superficially resemble this. But it is so much more limited that it's not even funny.

 

[JinM]

Both of which are made to make mechanics more accomodating to RPers.

Stop calling the people rpers* pls. We talk about non-pvp content. It just gets confusing for me. I mean I don't call pirate hunting or mining roleplaying. I just call it playing the game.

And just because non-pvpers can build differently (not even easier), doesn't mean that they have any big benefit. Just try the other road in perspective once please: Do non-pvpers get any new content from the power update? They can't play the game just like pvpers. There are no new pirates to hunt (pve), no new missions, no new astronaut gameplay (handheld weapons, better gravity, items that are usable like flashlights or shields), no fixed or improved trading, no currency that can be put into a storage and only that number that gets minus 10% if I die...

Just because the new power doesn't suck for rpers, doesn't mean rpers or any non-pvpers can have more fun in the game now that pvpers.

Pvpers got gameplay taken away, but non-pvpers didn't got new content. The only new content that comes now is aimed at PvPers.

* Please understand, that just because I am roleplaying when I play, doesnt mean that other non-pvpers are also roleplaying. If non pvpers are mining, pirate hunting or trading its not automatically roleplay. I just don't like that RPers are the baddies or the sheltered childs here. That narrative is wrong in many ways, and it starts at the point that we talk about non-pvpers, and they all didn't got new content. RPers included therefore.

 

[Raisinbat]

Stop calling the people rpers pls. We talk about non-pvp content. It just gets confusing for me. I mean I don't call pirate hunting or mining roleplaying. I just call it playing the game.

You're the one calling them RPers, i'm just responding with your own terminology.

And just because non-pvpers can build differently (not even easier), doesn't mean that they have any big benefit.

Nobody said they benefitted from 2.0, only that they asked for it, and it was provided because they asked for it. If i go down to my bank and ask the cashier to burn all my money, and the cashier then burns all my money, because i asked him to, he's doing something at my request regardless of whether or not it benefits me. Is it still not clear to you that 2.0 was made for non-pvpers?

Just try the other road in perspective once please:

You're the one having fuckall understanding of or respect for PVP.

Do non-pvpers get any new content from the power update?

Do pvpers get any new content from the power update? No, we had all our content erased. Did non-pvpers get any of their content erased?

There are no new pirates to hunt (pve), no new missions

You do understand that PVE combat is just PVP combat that also requires implementing decent combat AI, and therefor focusing on the PVP content first makes more sense from a development perspective; if you later decide to change mechanics like the power system or projectile physics the AI would need to be rewritten. Getting combat to a point where it is fun and functional in PVP is less work than trying to implement PVE first.

no new astronaut gameplay (handheld weapons, better gravity, items that are usable like flashlights or shields), no fixed or improved trading, no currency that can be put into a storage and only that number that gets minus 10% if I die...

Starmade is sold as a space sandbox. You might notice most of these have zero astronaut gameplay or even planets because adding pathfinding and character physics to the game would drastically reduce performance. Starmade could not function as a game without combat, but it CAN function without any of the stuff you're asking for, in fact most of it depends on combat being a functional part of the game; what are you going to trade that isnt weapons? Schine does not have infinite resources and prioritizing the features that are the most critical to having a game would make sense, instead of cooking up more half-baked content. What happens if they run out of money while everything in the game is only halfway decent?

Just because the new power doesn't suck for rpers, doesn't mean rpers or any non-pvpers can have more fun in the game now that pvpers.

PVPers can have exactly zero units of fun in starmade now, so the only scenario that's possible is equal or more, and i see plenty of them posting about how happy they are with development so SOMEONE must be having a good time...

Pvpers got gameplay taken away, but non-pvpers didn't got new content.

?????????

Is this an argument that non-pvpers need to be given more things and that pvpers are super entitled? You posted it like it is, but...

The only new content that comes now is aimed at PvPers.

As we have firmly fucking established at this point, NONE OF THE CONTENT COMING, OR HAVING BEEN ADDED IN THE PAST 3 YEARS IS OR WAS AIMED AT PVP.

 

[MacThule]

You should get the kiosk blueprint off of LvD. It is a logic system that lets you sell ship blueprints. It works best with servers that use the bar system, but can be configured to take any materials as payment

I love the kiosk system they made for LvD. A brilliant workaround for a major gap in the game. Fantastic work, really.

I do think that shop-integration of ship sales to allow trade network access, along with virtual ship touring/testing capability should be a goal for vanilla as well though.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Both of which are made to make mechanics more accomodating to RPers.



They can't. Noone can. 2.0 removed PVP ships from the game.



THE ENTIRE MOTHER FUCKING UPDATE WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE INTERIOR SPACE IN SHIPS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT WAS REQUESTED BY ROLEPLAYERS.




THE ENTIRE MOTHER FUCKING UPDATE WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE INTERIOR SPACE IN SHIPS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT WAS REQUESTED BY ROLEPLAYERS.



THE ENTIRE MOTHER FUCKING UPDATE WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE INTERIOR SPACE IN SHIPS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT WAS REQUESTED BY ROLEPLAYERS.



CAN'T WAKE UP!



If a cosmetic update hits that removes different colours from blocks, all cosmetic blocks, wedges and slabs, do you think that is appealing for cosmetic builders???

^This makes me happy.

PVPers can have exactly zero units of fun in starmade now, so the only scenario that's possible is equal or more, and i see plenty of them posting about how happy they are with development so SOMEONE must be having a good time...

 

[JinM]

As we have firmly fucking established at this point, NONE OF THE CONTENT COMING, OR HAVING BEEN ADDED IN THE PAST 3 YEARS IS OR WAS AIMED AT PVP.

That's just not true.

What got added:
New turrets, shootout rails, fleet ai, reworked shields, chambers, fixes for the vagyr exploits.
What gets added now:
New block destruction damage models, reworked old weapons, new weapons: mines + tracktor beam, different armour, fix for shipyards (pvpers use them too).

Please calm down.