Public min-maxing should stop somewhere at 80..95%

[JinM]

You can't do such formula, because you can't measure the exact volume of a ship. And without that volume you don't know if there are walkways inside the ship and so on. I don't understand why you use this abstract ideas and thoughts on matters that fail at easy things.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Another issue with this idea is it screws over people who use the community content to add custom pirates (and soon, fleets) to the game.

 

[NeonSturm]

Volume is an invisible cost (evasion, turn speed, gate-size, hangar size). Take an orthogonal shadow on the xy, xz and yz plane !
Mass isvisible
Credit cost is invisible Capsule cost is invisible
Efficiency of installed systems is invisible.

By telling that the efficiency is 80% of what is maximum possible for that volume (the volume you see, no interiors), you make efficiency visible.

Imagine the other ship has 35% armour blocks 20% shields, 20% thrust, 20% weapons, 5% other blocks (such as a power-L-3D).
These blocks take 100% visible volume.
With RP interior (hallways, bridge), the ship had 15% blocks less - less efficiency.​

It is about making the invisible properties visible and measurable.

 

[Sgtwisky]

Again if you don't know what your fighting before you get to the fight, you have already lost part of the information battle. That is on the player for not doing their homework on the enemy.

As for mass being "Invisible" have you ever considered opening up the Nav before your fully engaged in battle? It tells you right there how massive a ship is. And you can see your mass at any time in build mode. There is no reason a person shouldn't know their own mass within a reasonable margin of error. Knowing both your mass and the enemies mass means you can make an informed decision on how much combat potential each ship has. Is their ship the same size as you but has +20% mass? Then they may well have 120% of your combat potential. Then you can ether run, or fight. But its not like you have no idea which ship has an advantage.


With the crew update eventually ships of a certain size and up will likely have interior space for crew, and crew workstations. Sure RP ships may have more of them, but you have already bridged a huge part of the gap.

Another point RP ships have in their favor is that IF the builder made the ship well, then they would have placed rooms, halls, and other spaces in such a way that they better protect the vital systems. Spaced armor is a thing. and hallways and rooms in a ship can ADD to its survivability. But the builder has to be competent enough to plan out the entire ship in advance. Or at least understand where it would be most functional to place rooms.

Last Minute Edit:
Other things you can view to know if you stand a chance. When your targeting a ship (its selected from your nav) you also see:

• The power Cap
• The Max AHP
• The Max SHP
• The Max Shields

Those all help determine weather or not you should fight or turn tail and run. So there is no excuse for not using mass and those other stats that you can see. They are NOT invisible.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Again if you don't know what your fighting before you get to the fight, you have already lost part of the information battle. That is on the player for not doing their homework on the enemy.

As for mass being "Invisible" have you ever considered opening up the Nav before your fully engaged in battle? It tells you right there how massive a ship is. And you can see your mass at any time in build mode. There is no reason a person shouldn't know their own mass within a reasonable margin of error. Knowing both your mass and the enemies mass means you can make an informed decision on how much combat potential each ship has. Is their ship the same size as you but has +20% mass? Then they may well have 120% of your combat potential. Then you can ether run, or fight. But its not like you have no idea which ship has an advantage.


With the crew update eventually ships of a certain size and up will likely have interior space for crew, and crew workstations. Sure RP ships may have more of them, but you have already bridged a huge part of the gap.

Another point RP ships have in their favor is that IF the builder made the ship well, then they would have placed rooms, halls, and other spaces in such a way that they better protect the vital systems. Spaced armor is a thing. and hallways and rooms in a ship can ADD to its survivability. But the builder has to be competent enough to plan out the entire ship in advance. Or at least understand where it would be most functional to place rooms.

Last Minute Edit:
Other things you can view to know if you stand a chance. When your targeting a ship (its selected from your nav) you also see:

• The power Cap
• The Max AHP
• The Max SHP
• The Max Shields

Those all help determine weather or not you should fight or turn tail and run. So there is no excuse for not using mass and those other stats that you can see. They are NOT invisible.

What the Nav and target window does NOT show is, however:
- Enemy weapon config
- Whether or not it has any defensive effects
- Whether or not it has any docked power/shield injectors
- Existence, and coverage of point defense turrets
- Existence and power of jump inhibitor
- Thrust/mass ratio
(- Nothing at all if the other ship is jamming)

In a PvP situation, finding out that the enemy ship has 60% Ion effect (effectively more than doubling its shielding), docked hull with maxed Punch and Piercing defensive effect, shield injectors and a point defense grid so tight your missiles will never hit it, can quickly turn what you thought will be an easy battle into an absolute nightmare where your only hope is that it doesn't have any targeted stop turrets and you can outrun it until you get out of its inhibitor range, before your ship gets more holes than a nice piece of Swiss cheese.

 

[Sgtwisky]

Although that is true, my argument of mass being a better indicator then size still stands. I didn't say it gave you 100% of the info of the other ship, but that it was better, and gave a more accurate description of a ships potential. You should always assume that the other ship has been built to 100% of its mass's potential. Then judge the % of potential you think your ship was built too. Then make the determination of fighting or not.

Keep in mind that if a ship is jamming, odds are it took you by surprise and attacked your flank. That is 2 serious disadvantages right off the bat. It should also be assumed that unless they thought their ship could best yours, they would not have attacked. So that is 3 seprate issues your facing that have nothing to do with weather or not the ship was min/maxed.

If you assume that their mass is 100% of its combat potential, then you just have to look at your mass, and determine what its rough combat potential is, and then you can make a judgement on what actions to take. Keep in mind a large ship and smaller ship can have the same mass. This is why size is not a good indicator. You may be larger, but it doesn't mean your more effective. It doesn't even mean they don't have RP space. They may just have a few less rooms then you. Or maybe their rooms just aren't as big.

Your effectively asking to move judging a ships combat potential from its mass to its size. There is NO good reason for this, nor is there a good way to determine this due to the sheer amount of variables that determine effectiveness. Including the physical placement of said ships systems.

If you want to know if you have a chance in a fight you have the info to make an informed decision. If you are coughs by surprise you should have had a scanner and been scanning. If you get curb stomped because each ship was near the same mass and the other was just built better then you should have done more research on that opponent or not counted on your building skill so much. Your entire argument seems to come down too "I want a visual way to gauge my opponents so I don't have to do any research, or look at any stats on the fly, or understand the potential a ship of X mass has". You have the ability right now, to make a decision about a fight. Use it.

As for uploading to a server and breaking RP rules on that server.... That is something that requires an actual person to check out. That means an admin needs to spawn ships that seem to constantly out preform everyone else and make sure they have the required RP spaces, check for exploits ect. That is the only way to avoid tons of hassle when your ships is wrongly flagged as being better then it actually is. And what of the players that find ways to game the system? maybe they upload a partially finished ship. And all they need to add is shield caps and recharges. Maybe they also left out 50% of the defensive effect blocks. Then they just place in those blocks that require little concern on their physical placement and the ship appears through math to not be that great. Then they add onto it after spawning, and re-save it on the server. You now have a fully Min/Maxed ship, with no interior because the player was determined to do something that was against server rules.

To sum it up, Rule violations need to be checked on by admins, and enforced by admins. There is not going to be a way to automate it because in a game like this there are just too many combinations, and tactics to take into consideration. Let alone going around the system entirely.

EDIT:
Just to be clear, I am NOT against a server having RP rules about interior space, or admins enforcing it. I am against saying that those ships are not allowed on the CC just to accommodate those servers. I am also saying that you will find it hard even if your idea was implemented to stop players from completely ignoring it and doing what they want anyway.

 

[NeonSturm]

Keep in mind a large ship and smaller ship can have the same mass. This is why size is not a good indicator.

If one ship has 100 blocks and one ship 110 blocks length, will you notice the difference despite them being built differently (shape)?
But the 110 block ship is 1.10*1.10*1.10 times as strong (1.21*1.10=1 +33%).
It can be if volume/length ratio is the same and you both fly a maxed-out mass ship. Mass is just mass, but volume=length^3, that's why it is so power-full.

If you can't see mass because a ship is jammed, Guessing volume with length is your only chance.
Your "optical sensors" should give a more exact value once a ship is in vision range (can be jammed, not cloaked for optical).

Then they just place in those blocks that require little concern on their physical placement and the ship appears through math to not be that great. Then they add onto it after spawning, and re-save it on the server. You now have a fully Min/Maxed ship, with no interior because the player was determined to do something that was against server rules.

To sum it up, Rule violations need to be checked on by admins, and enforced by admins. There is not going to be a way to automate it because in a game like this there are just too many combinations, and tactics to take into consideration. Let alone going around the system entirely.

Good idea, but these blocks would just be counted whenever you leave build mode or if a ship has changed block-numbers in the last 5 minutes.​

 

[Sgtwisky]

size only matters when your talking about 2 ships that both have the same ratio of interior space. If the ratio's are not the same mass is a better guide. As a ship that is 10 blocks longer may well have that volume dedicated to extra rooms. OR it could be filled with combat blocks. If the ship is 10 blocks bigger on all sides, it could also be using spaced armor which leaves more open space under the skin of the ship. You can't tell visually so the best bet is to look at the mass which describes the combat abilities better then size.

As for jamming, like I said. It means you lost part of the battle already. You have a less effective means of judging a ships capabilities. In which case you should not engage it unless you already have seen that ship in combat and understand its abilities. You can NEVER have 100% knowledge of a ship unless you managed to steel it and inspect it. Trying to assume you can visualy see the potential of a ship is like trying to assume you know how many torpedo's a modern day sub has left, without knowing how many it has fired, or how many it can hold.

As for the blocks being recalculated when you leave build mode, I don't think that would work. I could see it recalculating when you save the ship. But not every time you leave build mode. Because once you leave build mode you've already placed the blocks. The blocks will not disappear. That means, as long as that player knows what to place and where to place it, they will be able to avoid your system.

And keep in mind, most players that want to have hardcore PvP don't bother joining RP servers. So I am going to again point out your talking about a very VERY small amount of occurrences. Also the CC should not cater to ANY server setup other then vanilla. Period.

 

[NeonSturm]

Also the CC should not cater to ANY server setup other then vanilla. Period.

Good enough. Just may unique server settings and your kill min-maxing.
If every server has 5% different settings randomly distributed all these server-dependent min-maxed ships have up to (5+5)% less efficiency in CC.

So rather than having to check if a ship is min-maxed, you just need to save the configure-values of the server it's build on to get the min-max potential. Then you could check how the ship would perform under these and how they perform under your server's config to get a difference.

size only matters when your talking about 2 ships that both have the same ratio of interior space. If the ratio's are not the same mass is a better guide. As a ship that is 10 blocks longer may well have that volume dedicated to extra rooms. OR it could be filled with combat blocks. If the ship is 10 blocks bigger on all sides, it could also be using spaced armor which leaves more open space under the skin of the ship. You can't tell visually so the best bet is to look at the mass which describes the combat abilities better then size.

If you min-maxed to 85% and have a 10% bigger ship, it will be 85%*133% as strong.

Size can be good enough to judge if you yourself are near 90%
​

But if players have to assume that every ship is 180% as powerful as it looks when it belongs to an enemy you don't know, you can only hunt with a 30% bigger ship (1.3^3=220%) which is at >85% efficiency, or with double ships.

 

[Madman198237]

So, you original goal is to not let min-maxed ships onto CC unless they're labelled as such. I think the response you've gotten pretty well seals the deal. I don't remember a single response that agreed with you in saying that min-maxed vessels should be labeled as such and made illegal on some servers. Although the title (And the OP) claim that the CC should contain no min-maxed vessels. Nobody appears to agree with you.

 

[Master_Artificer]

I still dont think we have actually seen a 100% maxed ship, we can see effecient components, but not actual ships because of the nature of the game.

 

[NeonSturm]

So, you original goal is to not let min-maxed ships onto CC unless they're labelled as such. I think the response you've gotten pretty well seals the deal.

My goal changed with new information I got.

But I haven't got a final answer anyway because how can you make 2 servers not share same variations of configs?

New I still dont think we have actually seen a 100% maxed ship, we can see effecient components, but not actual ships because of the nature of the game.

Then you found the best way to troll the whole community.

 

[Shaker]

Im just going to skip half this thread as in the end it doesnt matter if you build a PvP ship (im guessing its what the OP thinks a minmax is) if your a crap pilot anyway. Skill and speed can defeat block count to a certain level (shield regen)

The only limits a server should have on ship building are entity limits and block count.
Trying to load in 2 7million block ships with docked armor, power gens, multi turrets can kill starmade, it ends up being a game of who crashes first.

 

[NeonSturm]

The only limits a server should have on ship building are entity limits and block count.
Trying to load in 2 7million block ships with docked armor, power gens, multi turrets can kill starmade, it ends up being a game of who crashes first.

Agree, but that's not all which is needed.
​

Maybe empty space adds to defence (missile), but space between 2 placed blocks adding buffs to heat-dissipation because of added ship-size would be an easier and more reliable switch for server-owners.

 

[The Judge]

Or how else would you define civilian better?​

Civilian is obviously things not meant for military use, such as commercial shipping and leisure cruises.

 

[kingreol]

i feel we have a large enough variety of styles, where min maxing is the exception and not the rule.. compared to many other games. the community is not shaming anybody with less optimal builds.. If anything most ship reviews take more into account the details and aesthetics, with only a minimum lvl of efficiency needed.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

NeonSturm I still disagree with how length and volume are the most important determinant. Volume/mass is. A drone carrier will obviously be quite sizeable, but if it stores the drones in hangar space inside the ship, then that's a lot of hollow (but not unused!) space in said ship. Doesn't mean it still can't be efficient.
Also don't forget that RP interior isn't even that useless any more in terms of performance; there are some crazy factions that employ boarders (which is actually fun against a hard min/maxed ship, since it usually does have minimal protection in terms of anti-personnel turrets or doors, giving boarders a fairly simple access to its core) and also, any piece of hull and armor you use to form/decorate your interior, adds to the ship's armor HP, and every single door and airlock you add will make a boarding crew's job harder.

The mass/entity limit as the only limit on vanilla servers is something I fully agree with, although the entity limit should be taken easy. People like their point defense.

Enforcing ships ONLY with full RP interiors should be done ONLY on hardcore roleplay servers. All major factions who indulge in PvP usually build interior onto their ships anyway (speaking of experience here) because they have pride in their fleet. Also, feels so much better if you beat a doomcube with a well-built ship with RP hull and interior. So. Much. Better.

Or do you guys know of factions that still use ships with only a corridor to the core room for interior?

 

[JinM]

i feel we have a large enough variety of styles, where min maxing is the exception and not the rule.. compared to many other games. the community is not shaming anybody with less optimal builds.. If anything most ship reviews take more into account the details and aesthetics, with only a minimum lvl of efficiency needed.

The level of theoreticallity these guys swim in is overwhelming. And they efficiently ignore every dude who tries to bring them down to earth. I like the ideo, but not the way the discussion is moving here. But whatever, have your brainstorming stuff. But please don't use this catchy thread-captions if you don't want to discuss if or not but just want to life out your theoretical dreams. I really don't like it when people act as they want to talk but in reality they just want to hear their own opinion supported.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

i feel we have a large enough variety of styles, where min maxing is the exception and not the rule.. compared to many other games. the community is not shaming anybody with less optimal builds.. If anything most ship reviews take more into account the details and aesthetics, with only a minimum lvl of efficiency needed.

This isn't even limited to reviews, the majority of the ships on CC are more aesthetically focused (not that a ship can't be pretty and effective right now), and wouldn't really be viable as a pvp ship. This is honestly trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.

 

[NeonSturm]

Enforcing ships ONLY with full RP interiors should be done ONLY on hardcore roleplay servers.

Never saying anything about enforcement lately. Just about categorizing so that enforcement is easier for those who want.

This isn't even limited to reviews, the majority of the ships on CC are more aesthetically focused (not that a ship can't be pretty and effective right now), and wouldn't really be viable as a pvp ship. This is honestly trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.

Ugly ships scare peoples away before they can download it.
But there are high-rated exceptions too:
The Doom Toaster 2015-05-15 (5 Stars)
more:
Ship of Doom 2014-12-29 (dwelling in CC for 2 years. Just search for doom)
search: "borg, cube" (11 ships here)