Public min-maxing should stop somewhere at 80..95%

[NeonSturm]

Why do you snip the relevant point out of peoples' responses and respond only to inconsequential details?

Agree, this thread is filled with 1/2 posts doing that.
​

When did me making a made up argument to illustrate my point about the issues of your argument, turn into min/maxing aesthetics?

I'm going to change min/max with decoration blocks/cool rails.

Ok, can we please reboot the topic?

Edit: Update#1 for OP (3 small inserts: a link to this post and 2 definitions with "hardcore-min-maxing" and "100% efficiency")

The whole thread is like:

Cars are min-maxed. They have air-bags need to be fuel-efficient …+…+…+ (edit: Deutschland!)

I know this is not really the point of what you said. But its bugging me so Ima say it anyway. At least in the USA as long as you build your vehicle in a way that complies with the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) you can in fact get a lic. plate and drive it freely. But you do have to have ALL safety equipment, safety features, and comply with fuel economy laws.

SO most people could never comply with any of that or even know how to build their own car. BUT if the couple guys that CAN do all that wanted too they could.

Again, not important, and its not intended to be a counter argument to you. I just had to say it. For my sanity.

Many thanks Sgtwisky!
​

Many peoples have to spend money (and pay taxes to others) because of these regulations Sgtwisky pointed out so well.

In SM, taxes are paid

[with, in] "limited creativity" because you have to use designs of others
or in "work hours" incorporating the min-maxed design.
​

You shouldn't be flying around in someone else's creation causing havoc anyways! I just download a cc blueprint to learn from.One must always remember this is a creative sandbox game and pride in build is everything.m2c

Some just do it because they enjoy PvP and do not think much about it.
Some have no pride or think the pride is satisfied if they add a little bit design around other's builds.
(source: my personal experiences)​

I I can't help but partially agree because the specialization in Starmade is absolutely terrible because the systems in the game are broken, you can't really do civilian stuff that well.

OK, perhaps I found something to explain it better:

1. Civilian vessels are dominated by those who believe that "6:4 eff matters in 5/100 cases"
2. And then you have the military/corp vessels with 10'000'000'000$ budgets which min-max everything.
3. Finally, you have Nerds which min-max certain aspects or use military/corp-quality.

RP tells about "how much empty space and decorative" is included.
1. 2. and 3. above tell how strongly min-maxed systems are, independent of what is around them.

Civilian may buy min-maxed reactors (and pay a fee to the cooperation) but they will not min-max their whole ship.
Corporations will min-max everything - that's the difference.
– how easy is it to build it?

Then, servers can choose whether to unleash the admin-inquisition's witch-hunt on corp/military designs or doom-cubes.
But that's easier if blueprints have a min-max/corp tag on them.

Or how else would you define civilian better?​

 

[Sgtwisky]

So I think I may have a good response to this thread. But before I do, I want to be sure I understand your arguments first.

You think min-maxing should be removed from the CC and the CC only. You are not worried about veteran players that can min-max min-maxing as long as they are not sharing their stuff. And your reasoning is the following.

1. New players can just download Min/Maxed ships from the CC without learning what they are doing. And not going through the learning curve in your opinion is bad.

2. If you want to stay competitive you believe that a person must min-max or they will lose. Which in turn encourages #1.

3. You feel that if you can just look up how to do something the best way then it lessens the experience of discovery, and the opportunity for people to have their own "Design Secrets".

These appear to be your main reasons, and before I respond I want to make sure I understand your point. Let me know if I missed a major point, and if I am correct in what I think your OP is about.

 

[NeonSturm]

1. New players can just download Min/Maxed ships from the CC without learning what they are doing. And not going through the learning curve in your opinion is bad.

Not remove, just categorize it differently. Add a spoiler warning and a boolean-flag which servers can check if they do not want that content uploaded (it would then be bound to the creator's account name for uploading).

Category #1: Civilian and promoted stuff
Category #2: Cooperation's min-maxed stuff for those who need/want on servers which allow it.
​

3. You feel that if you can just look up how to do something the best way then it lessens the experience of discovery, and the opportunity for people to have their own "Design Secrets".

Factions share to their peoples.
If you make it completely inaccessible, big factions would obliterate others, because of #2.

2. If you want to stay competitive you believe that a person must min-max or they will lose. Which in turn encourages #1.

2. If you want to stay competitive you believe that a person must min-max or they will lose. Which in turn encourages #1.

I don't think it is required as long as power-cap is the only limit and only a soft-cap.

But I think it is a bad environment to encourage these builds being used and it limits standard-gate-sizes and hard-caps at certain sizes.
It is bad environment, and it is bad design.​

 

[Sgtwisky]

OK gonna tackle the first part first. I get what your trying to say. I wouldn't mind maybe a tag's as far as for what you search on the CC. Not so sure about the tag following the ship and making it so servers can disallow blueprints with certian tags from being uploaded.

For one, I could just re save the blueprint which would remove any CC tags. The only way would be to tag the ship somehow by measuring mass/power/weapons/shields. But you will find that determining if a ship is min-max would be very hard to do. This is partially due to the rock paper scissors effect that the systems on ships have. For every defense there is a counter, and for every offense there is also a counter. Its very possible that numbers that wouldn't appear min-maxed very well could be depending on the role the ship was made to fill. The opposite is also true, it may look min-maxed through math, but in actuality it preforms terrible due to the choices of the builder.

I know some servers that are RP require criteria rooms to be present on ships of certain sizes. And they generally limit the max size of ships as well. In these cases the admins just check ships every now and then to make sure they match their criteria for the RP universe they want. This is likely the most effective means for RP servers.

As for #2. Min-Maxing is NOT required in PvP. It can help, but it is not the be all end all. The main reason is that there are simply too many variables to consider. For example you have 1 min-maxed ship. That ship goes into combat. The pilot is fighting a non-min-maxed ship about the same size. The guy in the non min-maxed ship then uses fleet orders to call in a flanking fleet. Now the min-maxed ship is in serious trouble. Tactics, the "rock paper scissors effect" and "dice rolls" (where shots hit or miss ect.) turns math on its head. What works in theory, will almost never work that way in the field.

Granted, being min-maxed is an advantage, but its not the be all end all. And in any sandbox game no battle is ever fought on even footing. and if it is, then someone is doing something wrong.

As far as people discovering things on their own... its really their preference to do so or not. If your having trouble figuring out how to upgrade your ship and want to just DL something and use it, or learn from it go for it. If you want to work through the issue yourself that's good too. Its up to each individual to decide how they want to learn, experience, and play. And in NO WAY should they be able to demand that others learn, experience, or play the same as they do.

If server owners want to regulate ships, they can do so by not allowing uploads unless they approve them. and only allowing a small amount of them per faction. That is the only real way to put heavy restrictions on ships for RP servers.

 

[Top 4ce]

OK gonna tackle the first part first. I get what your trying to say. I wouldn't mind maybe a tag's as far as for what you search on the CC. Not so sure about the tag following the ship and making it so servers can disallow blueprints with certian tags from being uploaded.

For one, I could just re save the blueprint which would remove any CC tags. The only way would be to tag the ship somehow by measuring mass/power/weapons/shields. But you will find that determining if a ship is min-max would be very hard to do. This is partially due to the rock paper scissors effect that the systems on ships have. For every defense there is a counter, and for every offense there is also a counter. Its very possible that numbers that wouldn't appear min-maxed very well could be depending on the role the ship was made to fill. The opposite is also true, it may look min-maxed through math, but in actuality it preforms terrible due to the choices of the builder.

I know some servers that are RP require criteria rooms to be present on ships of certain sizes. And they generally limit the max size of ships as well. In these cases the admins just check ships every now and then to make sure they match their criteria for the RP universe they want. This is likely the most effective means for RP servers.

As for #2. Min-Maxing is NOT required in PvP. It can help, but it is not the be all end all. The main reason is that there are simply too many variables to consider. For example you have 1 min-maxed ship. That ship goes into combat. The pilot is fighting a non-min-maxed ship about the same size. The guy in the non min-maxed ship then uses fleet orders to call in a flanking fleet. Now the min-maxed ship is in serious trouble. Tactics, the "rock paper scissors effect" and "dice rolls" (where shots hit or miss ect.) turns math on its head. What works in theory, will almost never work that way in the field.

Granted, being min-maxed is an advantage, but its not the be all end all. And in any sandbox game no battle is ever fought on even footing. and if it is, then someone is doing something wrong.

As far as people discovering things on their own... its really their preference to do so or not. If your having trouble figuring out how to upgrade your ship and want to just DL something and use it, or learn from it go for it. If you want to work through the issue yourself that's good too. Its up to each individual to decide how they want to learn, experience, and play. And in NO WAY should they be able to demand that others learn, experience, or play the same as they do.

If server owners want to regulate ships, they can do so by not allowing uploads unless they approve them. and only allowing a small amount of them per faction. That is the only real way to put heavy restrictions on ships for RP servers.

This.

Also, again you aren't reading my posts:

Again, my point is that you cant judge or limit creations, just so you can make something you have an issue with better.

Again, stop trying to justify limiting creativity just because you find it difficult to edit or make min/max ships.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Honestly, NeonSturm after reading through all 4 pages I still don't get wtf your point is. And to my greatest horror, I even have to agree with Lecic on this topic. (God, what will be next, I'll make friends with Zyrr?)

True, I min/max my ships as much as I can. BUT!!! I only do that AFTER I built the hull I want it to have (OK, maybe withut all small details, meh) and designated the space I'd take for an RP interior (not the fanciest there is, but still usually have a full RP interior especially on my larger ships). And then, I squeeze in the most badass system setup I can possibly come up with, because I still want my ships to perform well, even in PvP. And they usually do quite well in their own weight class.

So, for that reason, I have no idea what the flying f*** are you having problems about. Building a ship is easy. Building a good looking ship, or a well performing ship, is a challenge. Building a ship that looks good inside and outside, AND performs well... that's what being a master builder should be about, no less. So for that reason, I have to chip in here and disagree with your concept, because min/maxing a ship WHILE it's looking good as well, is where the real Starmade shipbuilding skill shows. And I fail to see any problems with uploading such masterpieces to the CC. If I build a great ship, damn right I'm proud of it and upload it.

 

[Comradecolonel]

Sounds like some totalitarian nonsense to me. I don't think that "min/maxed" ships should be discriminated against. Do all the top tier players have to wear patches so that we know who they are? I think that the communities will naturally work themselves out. PvPers and PvEers will each have their own servers and play with the people that they want to play with.

 

[StormWing0]

I'm sitting here watching this topic scratching my head. Either someone is too dumb to realize how destroyed their own point was by both themself and others is, or they just like to argue and there was no point at all other than click-bait.


In any event how'd you even begin to categorize these anyways, you'd have to systematically tear each BP apart and throw half of creation at it over and over again just to see what'd happen. It'd take too dang long to do and there's no point in it. Would be nice to have more filters to use though.

 

[Napther]

Honestly, NeonSturm after reading through all 4 pages I still don't get wtf your point is. And to my greatest horror, I even have to agree with Lecic on this topic. (God, what will be next, I'll make friends with Zyrr?)

True, I min/max my ships as much as I can. BUT!!! I only do that AFTER I built the hull I want it to have (OK, maybe withut all small details, meh) and designated the space I'd take for an RP interior (not the fanciest there is, but still usually have a full RP interior especially on my larger ships). And then, I squeeze in the most badass system setup I can possibly come up with, because I still want my ships to perform well, even in PvP. And they usually do quite well in their own weight class.

So, for that reason, I have no idea what the flying f*** are you having problems about. Building a ship is easy. Building a good looking ship, or a well performing ship, is a challenge. Building a ship that looks good inside and outside, AND performs well... that's what being a master builder should be about, no less. So for that reason, I have to chip in here and disagree with your concept, because min/maxing a ship WHILE it's looking good as well, is where the real Starmade shipbuilding skill shows. And I fail to see any problems with uploading such masterpieces to the CC. If I build a great ship, damn right I'm proud of it and upload it.

THIS is basically my thoughts as well, But lests break it down another way because Min Maxing is apparently a bad thing (Really now, its not as if every military development research is doing this right here and now as it stands)

Lets take a completely RP-built ship. For example, Something of Skylord's

A "Min Max Player" can and WILL strip the entire systems from it, leaving a shell. They will build up the entire systems from the ground up to be as strong as they can get that Aesthetic, 100% RP ship to ever be. This is Min-Maxing a ship. This is not a Problem as the ship is extremely potent in combat and looks fabulous as it rends any ships built and unmodified from "almost" any other builder on the CC. For every ship there is ALWAYS a Counter. Siege Engines, Long Range Missile boats that constantly inhibit their enemy and either flee or attack them indiscriminately, a larger ship being sent to be repaired because someone launched warheads at it. Or a player encountering a small fleet of highly specialised ships (IE, Bombers, Fighters, Anti-shield/dps, Anti-Hull/systems ships) The list goes on

 

[Top 4ce]

Sounds like some totalitarian nonsense to me. I don't think that "min/maxed" ships should be discriminated against. Do all the top tier players have to wear patches so that we know who they are? I think that the communities will naturally work themselves out. PvPers and PvEers will each have their own servers and play with the people that they want to play with.

#MinMaxShipsMatter

 

[NeonSturm]

True, I min/max my ships as much as I can. BUT!!! I only do that AFTER I built the hull I want it to have (OK, maybe withut all small details, meh) and designated the space I'd take for an RP interior

Soft min-maxing - you still have empty space, interiors, etc.
You can use a min-maxed reactor and min-maxed turrets for a RP hull. That's soft min-maxing which does not limit creativity.

And soft min-maxing wasn't my point, because hard min-maxing is still 20% more efficient.

So for that reason, I have to chip in here and disagree with your concept, because min/maxing a ship WHILE it's looking good as well, is where the real Starmade shipbuilding skill shows. And I fail to see any problems with uploading such masterpieces to the CC. If I build a great ship, damn right I'm proud of it and upload it.

I agree. We had a miss-understanding because of the difference between soft/hard min-maxing.
​

Do all the top tier players have to wear patches so that we know who they are? I think that the communities will naturally work themselves out. PvPers and PvEers will each have their own servers and play with the people that they want to play with.

The patches-thing is not a bad idea to describe it.
I would patch them with scanner-info about that it is a military ship.

The problem here is someone gets some DL for hardcore PvP CC and uploads it on soft-PvP or PvE servers.
Pirate fights are easy now.
Your station defence turrets can take quadruple hull damage and dish out 200% damage because of a min-maxed reactor design (300% power). Or they are mounted on Satellites which close-in, kill you and go away before you know what you are up against.

If there is an easy way of filtering that content, server-admins could enforce the rules. They however can't enforce their own rules if this stuff is invisible to normal look. When SM goes into it's final release, trolls will do what trolls can do.
​

New I'm sitting here watching this topic scratching my head. Either someone is too dumb to realize how destroyed their own point was by both themself and others is, or they just like to argue and there was no point at all other than click-bait.

Nobody destroys his own point.
Only if you have changed your point or if it wasn't the point which is destroyed but an inaccurate "mistaken-as-point".

In any event how'd you even begin to categorize these anyways, you'd have to systematically tear each BP apart and throw half of creation at it over and over again just to see what'd happen. It'd take too dang long to do and there's no point in it. Would be nice to have more filters to use though.

First I could count installed weapon, armour blocks (and shields…) and calculate what the maximum efficiency would be you can archive in that volume, with that mass, with the amount of credits or raw-materials …

And then I would compare it to the actual build.

Quadrupled armour has 1/4 of the expected volume.
It has the same weight/cost/mats/armour/…

Thus it would count as min-maxed because volume would be 800%​

However, if the visible size - the hole it would leave to blocks pushing from above/below and other orthogonal directions contains 95% empty space and 5% quadrupled armour, the armour would be 40% of 100% volume and not count as min-maxed.

But if 80% are filled with cannon-systems, they don't count as empty space.

(Reference: Punch-card reader which demonstrates how I would check the height of a surface from 2 sides)
​

A "Min Max Player" can and WILL strip the entire systems from it, leaving a shell. They will build up the entire systems from the ground up to be as strong as they can get that Aesthetic, 100% RP ship to ever be. This is Min-Maxing a ship.

Soft min-maxing.
Hard min-maxing does not leave interior-rooms and also quadruples the hull to get more strength in a weaker-appearing size which fits through a smaller warp-gate.

For every ship there is ALWAYS a Counter. Siege Engines, Long Range Missile boats that constantly inhibit their enemy and either flee or attack them indiscriminately, a larger ship being sent to be repaired because someone launched warheads at it. Or a player encountering a small fleet of highly specialised ships (IE, Bombers, Fighters, Anti-shield/dps, Anti-Hull/systems ships) The list goes on

Ok, this is the first real counter-argument brought up! GZ

Would this also work on a blind encounter? When you don't know which ship your opponent will come in?
Dark Orbit or similar MMORPGs have 100 players in proximity of each other during a day and I hope StarMade will have 20 encounters between players and players or players and ship-size dependent pirates some day.​

 

[Napther]

Soft min-maxing.
Hard min-maxing does not leave interior-rooms and also quadruples the hull to get more strength in a weaker-appearing size which fits through a smaller warp-gate.

Name a Min Max ship that actually uses a warpgate.

In which case, you, Right, here, have CLEARLY DEFINED your arguement and EVERYTHING ELSE on this thread should be deleted with the exception of "Ships that have no interior space whatsoever should be prohibited" NOT "Ban all Minmaxxerz Plox"

SCHINE WILL BE COMING TO FIX THIS IN FUTURE CREW UPDATES: Dont you worry your little cotton socks any longer. Interior space to get crew to boost systems will become the new norm... And oh look, people will Min-Max that too! What a shame, eh?
[doublepost=1471737227,1471735782][/doublepost]

Would this also work on a blind encounter? When you don't know which ship your opponent will come in?
Dark Orbit or similar MMORPGs have 100 players in proximity of each other during a day and I hope StarMade will have 20 encounters between players and players or players and ship-size dependent pirates some day.

To answer this people use Spies, and other intelligence gathering and other questionable tracking methods that are legit built into the game. Not 3rd party software, but, literally using alt-astronauts as GPS trackers to ships.

In general, a High-Alpha vessel with a powerful jump drive can do hit and Run on a Min-Maxed DPS ship. Cause quite painful damage past its shields, then jump out into the Void to stalk. Also when a player is loaded into the game he can be attacked by a missile-turretd ship at 5 sectors away. An Inhibitor beacon in the right place with this high-alpha ship far in the distance and unrender-able can be a devastating combination that I have been unable to test. Placiing a small swarm of missile bombers at this beacon isnt a bad alternative...

 

[NeonSturm]

Is this finally coming to an end?
I were already a bit tired of fighting posts which go aside the thing I tried to point.

SCHINE WILL BE COMING TO FIX THIS IN FUTURE CREW UPDATES: Dont you worry your little cotton socks any longer. Interior space to get crew to boost systems will become the new norm... And oh look, people will Min-Max that too! What a shame, eh?

At least you don't have to sacrifice as much aesthetics then.
Still, the "80% of what is possible in that volume / with that mass / cost / …" should apply

To answer this people use Spies, and other intelligence gathering and other questionable tracking methods that are legit built into the game. Not 3rd party software, but, literally using alt-astronauts as GPS trackers to ships.

Since astronauts are docked relative to ships when they log out, right?
I could setup a push pulse which deletes them every 3 seconds

An Inhibitor beacon in the right place with this high-alpha ship far in the distance and unrender-able can be a devastating combination that I have been unable to test. Placiing a small swarm of missile bombers at this beacon isnt a bad alternative...

Assuming the min-maxer does not fire PD-torpedoes into your direction.
You could swap the primary and secondary slave to get a long range weapon and do the same to others.
You can jam your (requires 1 additional block) if power is min-maxed enough.​

 

[Groovrider]

Just ban everyone from submitting anything but empty shells to the CC. Done.

 

[Lecic]

This thread has devolved into complete gibberish in the last 24 hours, and it was barely legible before. I think it's time for me to unsubscribe from this thread.

 

[Sgtwisky]

As far as I am aware, as long as the core of a ship passes into a gate the gate will work. SO if the area of your ship the core is in can fit through the gate, and the gate has the power capacity, then even if you have a 1KM wide ship (at its widest point) you can get through.

Gates don't really matter in this discussion. Standardized gates really are not an important thing. As long as you know the size that you and your faction build things at, you can make a standard gate for your faction. Plus we have chaindrives. which kinda work better then gates. They may not stay forever, but at the moment there isn't much reason to make a gate let alone standardize it.

I only mentioned the above as standardized gate sizes (and I would assume standard ship sizes) are something you prioritize. It however is not something most of us are worried about.

As for "soft min/maxing". To me that IS what min/maxing is about. You work within whatever aesthetics you gave yourself to work in. You will find that most people here hold the belief that a ship should look good and preform as best as it can within the confines of the aesthetic design. That includes interior rooms. Though I would argue that smaller ships do not warrant interiors.

Here is a thread where most of us do in fact state that we believe in soft-min/maxing as your calling it.
[Philoshopy] Why do we keep trying to build something pretty ?
Please... don't revive the thread though.

As far as I am aware, there are very few people min/maxing to the extent that you are worried about. In fact, Ive NEVER once come across the CC and found a ship that was the current equivalent of a doom cube. With the exception of one or two actual cube ships. Which by the way are almost always forbidden by server admins. If you have a doomcube/doombrick/doomwedge often they just /destroy_entity_dock on it. Because many people agree, they ruin the fun.

SO like someone said before, can you give us examples of ships on the CC which fit your definition of min/maxed?

OH and to answer your point about do counter tactics work when you don't know the ship your opponent is using...
Yes. You just don't know what side of the counter your on until you fight. Which means if your flying a min/max ship, the other guy could have the counter to it. And if that is the case, it doesn't need to be min/maxed to win. It just needs to have a competent pilot. But after the first fight you should have an idea of what they had.

 

[Comradecolonel]

I am sorry but all I gather from this thread is that you are angry at non-RP players and want them to be a marked class of players. If that is wrong I am sorry and have no further comment.

 

[JinM]

I am sorry but all I gather from this thread is that you are angry at non-RP players and want them to be a marked class of players. If that is wrong I am sorry and have no further comment.

I wouldn't say he is angry, but something down that road.

Problem is, that Neonsturm can't answer easy questions and tries to explain his opinion with formulas from programming, and doesn't bother to make it clear what he wants in the first place, like: More decoration, more hallways, more text displays - is this what you want in ships or do you just use the word RP as some magic buzzword - dude express yourself easy and don't waste your time in some extratheoretical arguments that never tangent reality. So if you one day manage to express your easy opinions (how in the world can such an easy topic get deconstructed into a novel - man say what you want in easy words and in one sentence and you might get some serious attention and not this chitt chatting here) in normal words, you might have more fun debating about what you want. But no, you talk to the guys who disagree with you but don't even really get your point.

 

[NeonSturm]

Sometimes I do, but these posts are less references than those who do math.

I want an "automatic algorithm" or "rule-set" which gives a combat rating to ships based on expected/used block-count to archive effects like thrust, power-generation, weapon/shield power.

Measure the apparent volume (outer shape) after upload based on collision with visible blocks, fill that volume with thruster blocks, power-blocks tot archive the efficiency and compare how many blocks compared to available space you did need.

That's efficiency.
>80% efficiency counts as soft min-maxed. >95% as hard min-maxed.

I want an algorithm because peoples have so many different subjective opinions. I want a definition of min-maxing.
​

Do you know the witch-hunt? Peoples do not like things which are invisible if they are likely a danger.

 

[Sgtwisky]

also, why are you pitting ships of similar volume together? You should never do that. Look at mass instead. Mass can be the same between a "Hardcore Min/Max" ship and a "Soft Min/Max" ship. the soft min/max ship will likely be larger then the hard min/max ship. This is because the soft min/max ship has open areas inside for interior. If you measure performance by mass instead of size you get MUCH better results.

You will never have standard sizes so measuring by size is just plain dumb. Measure by mass and you suddenly have a much better comparison of the capabilities of the ships. Granted one can still have better overall systems but at the point your talking about, it doesn't matter. a 10%-20% difference in system ability can be overcome by the pilot and tactics.

Sun Tsu said:
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

He also said:
"He who knows when to fight and when to not, will be victorious."

Learning about your opponent and what to do in order to beat them is the ONLY sure fire way to win a battle. Min/maxing will help but its only one small facet of combat. If you don't know your enemy you only have a 50/50 shot of surviving. SO get out there and gather intelligence first ! As that is part of both combat and RPing an organization that is at war.