Pretty but effective turrets. Discussion of a solution.

[Gmodism]

Not only stronger but more unique. Give the weapons more clearly purposes. For example:
Rapid fire(C+C) for AMS, short range anti fighter.
Missiles (M+B) for long range anti fighter.
Cannons (C) and Beams (B) for medium ranged fights against mediun sized ships (Corvettes, light Frigates).
Sniper Cannon (C+B) and Sniper Beams (B+B) for extreme long ranged fights against medium and large ships.
Siege Beams (B+P) for medium ranged fights against large and titan sized ships.
Artillery Cannon (C+P) for long ranged fights against large and titan sized ships.
Torpedos (M+P) for medium ranged fights against medium to titan sized ships.

Shotgun weapons need a full rework. To weak for that what they are, and the spread is to large (seriously we are in space even short distances are large), not enough pellets.

Pulses are unique in what they do, they just need better game performances, AI improvements, less laggy colision detectsystem.

ALL weapons need some kind of Damage falloff to give them an max range and opimum range.

Seriously all weapons (exept missiles) has the same DPS per Block! And what you take when all weapons have the same DPS?
Right! You take that one that have the highest range or lowest infrastructure cost for short: Maschine Guns and Snipers.

So the only real difference betwen weapons are reload times and range.
No signifficant differences in: accuracy, bullet traveltime, damage.

I cant understand how people like this.


Here a nice looking Turret. But based on its dimensions only a low damage output. And than say some people that it never should
be possible to make this turret so powerful as they look. Sorry I'm a creative guy, and I also want performance AS part of my design.

REMEMBER Starmade is a creative game not a PvP shooter.

Show of cool turrets, why sure!

I agree with you on that point to, pulse needs to be especially much better as nobody uses it, or even tried... also Cp systems should have a much stronger explosive ratio when the EXP is used, maybe even a grenade shell effect by default would be nice, really big guns and beams should have a bigger calibre than just one silly block...

 

[kurosawa]

Building turrets weapon systems with 1.5m e/s or 2m e/s is a good idea on larger ships or just for a strong main turret in general, the base ideally supplying ALL the power required for this. This is efficient because each entity has it's own soft cap for power generation

How does that work unless you have equally large energy capacitors on the base or barrel or feed the energy back to the mother ship?

in anycase a block capable of generating 1-2m e/s is fairly large

 

[Az14el]

you don't feed it back to the ship, it all goes to the turrets own weapons. And considering the mothership carrying large efficient turrets may well be far over the power generation soft cap and relying on aux power, it's fewer blocks on the turret than it would be on the ship, as the turret is a different entity and so not over the generation cap yet.

 

[kulbolen]

i wont argue all weapon are perfectly balanced; they arent. i agree they should be tuned a bit. but theyre much closer to balanced than your argument gives credit. i have used every weapon combo in the game in pvp effectively.

if you know much about the game, you know offense scales better than defense, and weapon systems already do very high dps per block relative to defensive options. otherwise wed have lots of ships impervious to anything in their mass range, but as it is something decently designed at half your mass can crush you to pieces if you dont fight or run.

as for turrets, just because you dont know how to do something doesnt mean it cant be done. it confuses me that your argument is about capital ship turrets since theres a limit to turret size while maintaining effectiveness. if youre making them half the size of your "capital" ship... youre probably doing it wrong.

 

[taisong]

Well, this problem is not a big one in my opinion, but I do understand that some weapons (missiles and pulse) are underpowered right now.

Right now, missiles with a beam/pulse slave take a lot of energy to fire, and is very slow to reload. This makes missiles inefficient on energy, at least worse than beams or cannons. It also gets shut down by AMS turrets, which almost negates all incoming missiles. I simply have no idea why missiles cost so much energy, when its cooldown is so long. I miss the old missiles, which blew up that disk planet in a single shot.

Pulse is simply weak because you really do not need a melee weapon when you have much more efficient weapons.

Though, it is true that the weapon systems are a bit weak right now, considering the energy a ship can potentially produce. In order for an efficient ship to make a viable weapon system, they have to rely on overdrive to use the excess energy. I personally hate it, because it stops players from using other effects

I think a small buff would be fine on beam/cannons. Also, slave beam/pulse should give weapons more energy efficiency.

 

[kurosawa]

you don't feed it back to the ship, it all goes to the turrets own weapons. And considering the mothership carrying large efficient turrets may well be far over the power generation soft cap and relying on aux power, it's fewer blocks on the turret than it would be on the ship, as the turret is a different entity and so not over the generation cap yet.

It might be fewer block on the main ship for power regen but it is still 8 beam of 500 power modules each to get 2m e/s or some form of huge block, which makes a pretty big turret.

And since you seem to really only on e/s it seems like a lot of wasted potential

 

[Az14el]

It might be fewer block on the main ship for power regen but it is still 8 beam of 500 power modules each to get 2m e/s or some form of huge block, which makes a pretty big turret.

And since you seem to really only on e/s it seems like a lot of wasted potential

It's a difference of literally tens to hundreds of thousands of blocks on a larger ship, which will indeed have more than enough space for these turrets, the same idea I've used on some quite small ships;

Spoiler

Elucidator Ion Frigate
Aster Class Corvette

In both cases it has allowed me to scale the dps well beyond 200k despite no use of Aux and no additional reactor placements on the main ship past an efficient range with power to spare. There's no better way to scale your dps by weight, it's less blocks than Auxilliary power & far less blocks than pure reactor placements over cap. This is a byproduct of the simple fact that efficient power reactor lines are the most efficient form of power generation.

**Should clarify that those higher numbers were NOT intended as a minimum, they're a maximum to still be considered power efficient just as on a regular ship. However this can still mean a pretty wide range of turret sizes being viable due to capacitor req's on some weapons. Bulkiness of its power systems is a necessity you work around as best as you can to make a both powerful & attractive turret.

 

[kurosawa]

thanks i will look in to your designs and add them to my own

 

[Az14el]

thanks i will look in to your designs and add them to my own

Nuclearfun definitely does the socketed hidey-under-hully thing for the large bases much better than I did, which i think is a pretty good approach for a mix of compactness & efficiency, though I won't speak of his weapons choices or use of space otherwise :p

 

[philthy mcnasty]

I have started up modular experiments again.

one thing i have discovered is docked, logic operated heat seeking over driven missiles are a terrifying module to add to any ship. if properly docked and self powered, they only take up a small bit of room, and you can passively destroy larger ships, and their fighter escorts at the push of a button.

I am also experimenting with other modules as well, like self powered 1000 block docked jump drive for my emperor class 40k flag ship. I also want to see if a self powered jump inhibitor module will work as well.

 

[Cluwne]

I am also experimenting with other modules as well, like self powered 1000 block docked jump drive for my emperor class 40k flag ship.

Just go pester devs about that warpdrive already.
If enough people will yell at them, demanding one of the most needed mechanic since the introduction of jump drives and discovery of their pathetic range, they'll cave and add it.
They can't just look down and whisper "No." to a hundred of pretty pissed people. Or so I sincerely hope.

 

[Ithirahad]

Just go pester devs about that warpdrive already.
If enough people will yell at them, demanding one of the most needed mechanic since the introduction of jump drives and discovery of their pathetic range, they'll cave and add it.
They can't just look down and whisper "No." to a hundred of pretty pissed people. Or so I sincerely hope.

They can. And they have. Fact is, there are more central things that need to be worked on (e.g. making singleplayer gameplay a thing); jump drive is considered "good enough for now" so far as I know.

 

[Cluwne]

making singleplayer gameplay a thing

Funny you mention it. If it takes an hour without chain-drives to get to the NPCs and their bases then they better have the best damn base in the universe.
Even then, I'd still like to have a mean to get there without being forced to enjoy the procedurally-generated galaxy.

And who the hell seriously plays this "practically-MMO" in singleplayer anyway? And I mean actually playing, not designing stuff for the multiplayer
Adding insult to injury, not only the task of establishing gate network will lie solely on your shoulders, but to get to the other end of the galaxy to connect the gates you will have to spend quite some time.
And that is with the default sector size. Imagine masochists who'd do it in an "almost real scale" universe.
The mind reels.

jump drive is considered "good enough for now"

I wonder what all this screaming and demanding warpdrives is all about then...

 

[Ithirahad]

Funny you mention it. If it takes an hour without chain-drives to get to the NPCs and their bases then they better have the best damn base in the universe.
Even then, I'd still like to have a mean to get there without being forced to enjoy the procedurally-generated galaxy.

This kind of misses the point. The thing is that, yes, reaching those bases is impractical under the current system, without chaindrives anyway, but it's imperative that they be present, at least. Making them less annoying to reach can be dealt with once the framework is established.

From a practical standpoint, we do have chaindrives, and for that matter fast-jumping ships that don't use chaindrives (my own Kava-Suurenas and Kelzhaia, for instance), so it isn't as though you are forced to slowboat to faction homes. Furthermore, at the moment there really isn't any good reason to visit them anyway; any trading that needs to be done can be accomplished via the trading system and removing Scavengers only becomes necessary when they go and spread into your own space.

And who the hell seriously plays this "practically-MMO" in singleplayer anyway? And I mean actually playing, not designing stuff for the multiplayer

Nobody - specifically because of the issues that Schine will be addressing over the next series of updates. lol.

Adding insult to injury, not only the task of establishing gate network will lie solely on your shoulders, but to get to the other end of the galaxy to connect the gates you will have to spend quite some time.

Yes; it's a galaxy. I'd sort of like to see station building automated via construction fleets (RTS-style) in the late stage of the game, but we'll see.

And that is with the default sector size. Imagine masochists who'd do it in an "almost real scale" universe.
The mind reels.

Jump drives go by sector, not by a fixed amount of KM. Default range is 8 sectors, whether that is 800km or 800,000km with your world settings.

I wonder what all this screaming and demanding warpdrives is all about then...

I should have been more specific - they are considered "good enough for now" by Schine.

 

[Cluwne]

The thing is that, yes, reaching those bases is impractical under the current system, without chaindrives anyway, but it's imperative that they be present, at least.

It's not "impractical", it's plain mind-numbing, without chain-drives that is, and those can be "fixed" any day now.

Making them less annoying to reach can be dealt with once the framework is established.

You do realize that there are PLAYER-BUILT FACTION BASES that one can/need/have to visit? Not soon™, not when NPCs are implemented, rid of major bugs and polished, but now, right now. There is currently no way to efficiently traverse the great expanses of a galaxy - you either have to do the charge-jump routine like a goddamn moron or utilize a contraption that can potentially kill a server.
It's the kind of system that takes priority over fancy stuff like NPCs and decorations. Things like this define the way a game is played.

I'd sort of like to see station building automated via construction fleets

Can't wait to see this fail spectacularly, as the Von-Neumann fleets devour the galaxy system by system.


Anyways, it's getting increasingly off-topic, so let's fix that.
Can we all agree that having to make ball-turrets to have a turret that is more than a decoration is bad? Let's at least get that out of the way.

 

[DrTarDIS]

It's not "impractical", it's plain mind-numbing, without chain-drives that is, and those can be "fixed" any day now.

You do realize that there are PLAYER-BUILT FACTION BASES that one can/need/have to visit? Not soon™, not when NPCs are implemented, rid of major bugs and polished, but now, right now. There is currently no way to efficiently traverse the great expanses of a galaxy - you either have to do the charge-jump routine like a goddamn moron or utilize a contraption that can potentially kill a server.
It's the kind of system that takes priority over fancy stuff like NPCs and decorations. Things like this define the way a game is played.

Can't wait to see this fail spectacularly, as the Von-Neumann fleets devour the galaxy system by system.


Anyways, it's getting increasingly off-topic, so let's fix that.
Can we all agree that having to make ball-turrets to have a turret that is more than a decoration is bad? Let's at least get that out of the way.

it takes me about 5 minutes to get across a galaxy, about 15-20* to go from the center of one to the center of another. If it takes you more than that, you aren't building very well.

now though. turrets. they are pretty(edit*)

 

[Panpiper]

it takes me about 5 minutes to get across a galaxy, about to go from the center of one to the center of another. If it takes you more than that, you aren't building very well.

The jump drive discussion can be continued in a thread I made just for this: How do you build a jump ship to permit fast galactic travel, without chain drives?

 

[Jojomo]

... weapons systems often are a large percentage of the mass of a warship.

That doesn't seem unreasonable.

This problem is especially apparent with the new AI Faction ships, which are designed around a more RP approach. They have lots of room for yet to be implemented crew, and wouldn't stand much of a chance vs a PVP build. But they sure do look nice.

<snip>

First solution: adjust how much power and damage weapons blocks do, to scale them by a factor of 10x or more. This solves the problem, and allows RP ships to do more damage with fewer weapons blocks, and turrets can be smaller and keep the same effectiveness.
Drawbacks: This breaks all existing ship designs. Not ideal.

PVP ships would continue to make turrets at the same size they do now, and therefore still easily outclass the new AI faction warships.

Third Solution: Make a new effect block: The Capital-Overdrive block. Same concept as the Overdrive, only scaled up for capital ship use. Would increase damage and power usage by 10x-25x. Testing would be needed to find the best balance of turret size. As the system is designed for capital ships, projectiles would be slower, and missile tracking would be negatively affected. This is to give a tradeoff for the damage added. Should require a significant amount of resources to produce, or use "unobtanium" to make. IE something hard to find, or using a new mechanic such as gas planet mining, or only available as a trade good from NPC factions.
Capital Overdrive used as a passive effect could either increase thrust and turn rate in exchange for increased power thrust cost, or increase thrust and turn speed in exchange for top speed.
Drawbacks: Allows for very powerful weapons at greatly reduced masses. Would change game balance greatly.

Would also allow for greatly increased weapon power at current masses, as above.
[doublepost=1481076874,1481076274][/doublepost]

Actually, modern battleships large guns are a mere 5%-10% of their total size and mass. For something the size of a naval battleship in Starmade to have firepower to be effective and use up the power output, you would need turrets the size of a trident submarine. Sure, you could make it work in Starmade, but it look hella ugly.

Many battleship et al battles were (there are no modern battleships) measured in hours. That doesn't scale well for us.

Also, the large guns they put on were the largest weapons they could possibly fit onto the vessel (availability etc permitting).
For larger weapons they'd have needed a larger vessel - we don't operate within the same set of restrictions (we don't have to worry about crew space, ammunition space, stability, or structural integrity, and the largest weapons we can build are far larger than the ones they were able to), so when PVP builders do the same thing (fit the largest weapons they can, which they will always do, forever and ever, amen) the percentage of mass is higher.

 

[madman Captain]

PVP ships would continue to make turrets at the same size they do now, and therefore still easily outclass the new AI faction warships.

Also, the large guns they put on were the largest weapons they could possibly fit onto the vessel (availability etc permitting).
For larger weapons they'd have needed a larger vessel - we don't operate within the same set of restrictions (we don't have to worry about crew space, ammunition space, stability, or structural integrity, and the largest weapons we can build are far larger than the ones they were able to), so when PVP builders do the same thing (fit the largest weapons they can, which they will always do, forever and ever, amen) the percentage of mass is higher.

PvP shouldnt be the norm for this game. There is also a simple solution for this problem: Weapon damage softcaps.

 

[Jojomo]

PvP shouldnt be the norm for this game. There is also a simple solution for this problem: Weapon damage softcaps.

Well that's a huge call for you to make. I don't think you (nor I, nor anyone individual in this thread) are the person to make it.