Prerelease v0.200.250

[Captain Fortius]

I'm trying to branch out into memes, hows this?

WHY CAN'T I GIVE YOU ALL DA RATINGS!

Seriously, that's at least a double like, a creative, a funny and an agree all together.

 

[Jeffenuva]

10 blocks.

An "old power" Isanth is 25m long x 31m wide and generates 17,500e/s from it's 120 power reactors. I believe it uses a little under 15,000e/s for its 200 thrusters and 80 damage beam modules.

I logged in to the dev build and tried to generate 17,500 power in a 25m x 31m footprint and couldn't get close - even filling the area with stabilizers. (Was I doing it wrong? Possible...)

I think the min threshold should be high enough to support a light fighter like an Isanth. Maybe a 5x5x5 cube, generating 125 x 100e/s = 12,500e/s? It would lower the learning bar for new players too.

Update: ...I was able to stabilize a 5x5x5 cube if I extended my "Isanth" to about 50m.

 

[Dire Venom]

An "old power" Isanth is 25m long x 31m wide and generates 17,500e/s from it's 120 power reactors. I believe it uses a little under 15,000e/s for its 200 thrusters and 80 damage beam modules.

I logged in to the dev build and tried to generate 17,500 power in a 25m x 31m footprint and couldn't get close - even filling the area with stabilizers. (Was I doing it wrong? Possible...)

I think the min threshold should be high enough to support a light fighter like an Isanth. Maybe a 5x5x5 cube, generating 125 x 100e/s = 12,500e/s? It would lower the learning bar for new players too.

Update: ...I was able to stabilize a 5x5x5 cube if I extended my "Isanth" to about 50m.

You've probably heard this before, but power numbers and consuptiom now are completly differen. E.g 5.5k e/s might be the same as the old 17.5k e/s.
Can it run the same systems/acheive the same performance in the old vs the new:?

 

[Criss]

Hey Criss, any news on what happened during the meeting a while back? I'm rather curious.

There was no meeting. It was Christmas Eve so we will all be taking a break for a bit. Likely have a meeting on this upcoming Sunday.

logged in to the dev build and tried to generate 17,500 power in a 25m x 31m footprint and couldn't get close - even filling the area with stabilizers. (Was I doing it wrong? Possible...)

Dire venom is correct, the numbers are not supposed to match. The new power system is not supposed to give you the same values. Toy with it and see if you can sustain the same number of systems in that volume.

 

[Jeffenuva]

There was no meeting. It was Christmas Eve so we will all be taking a break for a bit. Likely have a meeting on this upcoming Sunday.


Dire venom is correct, the numbers are not supposed to match. The new power system is not supposed to give you the same values. Toy with it and see if you can sustain the same number of systems in that volume.

I spawned an Isanth and removed the old power blocks. A 3x3x3 group of reactors and a 3x3x3 group of stabilizers on opposite corners of the wings seemed adequate to fly it around and fire the weapons: 2700e/s.

Thanks!

 

[Matt_Bradock]

I spawned an Isanth and removed the old power blocks. A 3x3x3 group of reactors and a 3x3x3 group of stabilizers on opposite corners of the wings seemed adequate to fly it around and fire the weapons: 2700e/s.

Thanks!

that is actually interesting considering how the per-block damage on the weapons was vastly increased as part of the effort to "compress" systems. Who knows, maybe a proper re-fit with actual shields is possible for the Isanth, and to actually make it a threat?

 

[StormWing0]

Ya one thing people keep overlooking is the new system has drastically different stats so the new number and old numbers aren't going to match. That said it's still a pretty bad idea to force open space using it. Chambers seem like what most people are talking about for that.

 

[Jeryia]

So I was going to try to ignore the new power system and only use the old one when I found that none of my ships weapons systems seem to work correctly.

They weapons seem to be stuck in some continuously cycling cooldown. Spawned AI ships only seem to be able to function with cannons, but things like rapid fire doesn't work.

With the thought that perhaps my ships are strange in some way. I tried out the Isanth Type-Zero variants, and saw the same thing.

I don't see anything in the bugtracker on this. Am I missing something with this prerelease?

Note: This is in the latest pre-release.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

So I was going to try to ignore the new power system and only use the old one when I found that none of my ships weapons systems seem to work correctly.

They weapons seem to be stuck in some continuously cycling cooldown. Spawned AI ships only seem to be able to function with cannons, but things like rapid fire doesn't work.

With the thought that perhaps my ships are strange in some way. I tried out the Isanth Type-Zero variants, and saw the same thing.

I don't see anything in the bugtracker on this. Am I missing something with this prerelease?

Note: This is in the latest pre-release.

Well, write it up. I did notice AI being unable to properly fire, but the guns were only stuck on endless reload if you didn't have enough power to reload all of them. Mind you, the guns got increased damage and power consumption per block, so the old block count will have ridiculous power hunger (and similarly ridiculous damage output)

Also, upon loading/spawning a ship, an unknown bug might increase power consumption by a random multiplier (seen 200% to 1200%) for some reason...

 

[Nosajimiki]

that is actually interesting considering how the per-block damage on the weapons was vastly increased as part of the effort to "compress" systems. Who knows, maybe a proper re-fit with actual shields is possible for the Isanth, and to actually make it a threat?

The Isanth was never much more than a lot of empty space, massive amounts of armor, and minimal firepower so it's not surprising that you got this result. You ever try to dueling with Isanth's and you'll spend 30min in a fruitless and boring dog fight very slowly whittling away your opponent.

 

[Jeryia]

Well, write it up. I did notice AI being unable to properly fire, but the guns were only stuck on endless reload if you didn't have enough power to reload all of them. Mind you, the guns got increased damage and power consumption per block, so the old block count will have ridiculous power hunger (and similarly ridiculous damage output)

Also, upon loading/spawning a ship, an unknown bug might increase power consumption by a random multiplier (seen 200% to 1200%) for some reason...

Aren't ships using the old power systems suppose to use the old mechanics though(where being able to fire was determined by available stored power, not recharge ability)? Regardless, I've written up a bug report.

edit: Built a simple mock ship having 1 million power generation, and 20 millions capacity using the old system. It still cannot fire from a 1 block missile tube with missile compute. It has nothing else on it using power (just has power caps (old), power (Old), a missile compute, a missile tube, and a ship core)

 

[Slimsta]

Awesome! Looking forward to learning how the new systems work and seeing how I can implement them effectively in to my ships.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

The Isanth was never much more than a lot of empty space, massive amounts of armor, and minimal firepower so it's not surprising that you got this result. You ever try to dueling with Isanth's and you'll spend 30min in a fruitless and boring dog fight very slowly whittling away your opponent.

Yep... especially since guided missiles have their turn radius adjusted and miss small targets a lot.
[doublepost=1514571531,1514571497][/doublepost]

Aren't ships using the old power systems suppose to use the old mechanics though(where being able to fire was determined by available stored power, not recharge ability)? Regardless, I've written up a bug report.

edit: Built a simple mock ship having 1 million power generation, and 20 millions capacity using the old system. It still cannot fire from a 1 block missile tube with missile compute. It has nothing else on it using power (just has power caps (old), power (Old), a missile compute, a missile tube, and a ship core)

They are supposed to. They don't function though.

 

[Jeffenuva]

The Isanth was never much more than a lot of empty space, massive amounts of armor, and minimal firepower so it's not surprising that you got this result. You ever try to dueling with Isanth's and you'll spend 30min in a fruitless and boring dog fight very slowly whittling away your opponent.

Still a lot of empty space, filled with a purple worm. Maybe a 10min dogfight now instead of 30?
Isanth New Power Test Build

 

[Lecic]

I spawned an Isanth and removed the old power blocks. A 3x3x3 group of reactors and a 3x3x3 group of stabilizers on opposite corners of the wings seemed adequate to fly it around and fire the weapons: 2700e/s.

Thanks!

So what you're saying is that the power system works great, assuming you're flying a ship that's got a ridiculous amount of empty space in it and tiny weapons?

 

[Magrim]

Who knows, maybe a proper re-fit with actual shields is possible for the Isanth, and to actually make it a threat?

It will never be a threat to those that understand the exploits built into this new power system. A smaller ship could easily outmatch the isanth in offensive and defensive capabilites as long as one of it's dimensions is greater than the 31m of the isanth.

 

[Valiant70]

The goal was to create a system that prevented players from filling their ship to the absolute brim with reactors and systems

I'll just put it nicely and just say: It didn't work.

I will ask in the meeting tomorrow if we can reduce distance then.

The number isn't the issue. It's the concept. The concept needs to change, not the config.

The reason there is currently an energy beam is so new players don't need to worry about 3 blocks all connected just to get power working on a moderately sized vessel.

I'm pretty sure that was done for computational reasons. I suggested conduits and explained why, and Lancake said the required calculations (group checks) would be too heavy in battle. Ask Schema.

Players seem to like the chamber aspect of the power update. I also recall plenty of optimizations but if you want to backtrack to pre rails the version for your build can be selected here.

BUUUUURRRRN!

I don't really want him to go. Nobody has ever called me a pizza before. It's amusing.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

I talk not of extreme RP builders

You spelled "dollhouse builders" wrong.

people who want their ship to be pretty to an extent as well as good in combat

You spelled "roleplayers" wrong.

So, the conclusion follows- Systems must be spaced out- All of them, not just power. (By a much smaller amount of course). Each system creates a bubble (visible in HUD) depending on it's group size. No two bubbles should overlap. In case of overlapping, lesser the distance between the groups, lesser both their efficiencies. (Quite similar to the stabilizer distance mechanic currently in-game). Pretty straightforward. Take the example of a chain- Right now, the ships are like a stick, rigid. Simply because both the endpoints of the stick are defined. But, if we space out ALL systems, (by a little...not as much as stabilizers and reactors :P), ships will be like a combination of smaller sticks, hinged freely. (Each small stick represents small spacing between systems). This will mean they can aquire ANY shape with almost equal efficiency. (Like a mettalic chain, although made up of rigid metal parts, links in such a way as to allow maximum freedom in movement.

Meh. Would work. It's boring though.

• Now, we come to the second hurdle: Addition of mass. Additionof mass must not be a negative thing. (up to a certain point of course). Why? Simply because brick builders will leave their ships empty in the middle whereas aesthetic builders would like interiors and the such. Yes, interiors are light but still, not enough. Addition of mass will mean slower ships. But what about increase in armor? This has got to be a joke. Armor is damn useless right now, unless you build layers of well thought out stuff. The only possibility is if the older HP system came back. Don't get me wrong- the new Reactor HP sure could mean some cool stuff but, it simply is not meant to be.

Damn right!

One word- Islands.

Igotcha, bro.

Add the following mechanics:

• Beyond a convex hull which is sized according to reactor output, systems start losing power efficiency rather quickly.
• The convex hull used to determine distance may be reshaped. It defaults to the same shape as the ship's box dimensions, but may be changed manually.

That doesn't allow for multiple reactors, but maybe I can think of something better when my brain's working better.

 

[Brokengauge]

I bought a house a few years ago.

It was built in 1964.

It was a pier and beam style house, near a lake in North Texas. I bought it from a family friend, whose mother had occupied the home previously. I was gonna raise my kids there. Nice yard. Lots of trees. Mostly friendly neighbors.

We decided to replace the carpet. We pulled it up, and lo and behold! A rotted subfloor. Wasn't even made of 1/4" plywood. Some of it was 1/8", some of it was straight up wood paneling. I fell through the floor over and over pulling up the old carpet. Took a week to rip up the sub floor.

Then the horror! The supports under the floor were in some places 12' apart! The main, load bearing wall running through the house? Nothing under it. The roof was what was holding that house together.

So I, my father in law, that family friend, and a couple of drunk friends of mine got to work. Spent an additional 15k on 4x4's, plywood, and concrete pillars. We rose the east end of the house up 3". We reinforced the fuck out of that floor. You could drive a tank into that house and the floor would stay up. We even went away with carpet and put in wood floor.

We poured money, sweat, a little blood, and quite a few years into that house. I was hoping that with enough effort, I could still salvage the house.

Little did I know what was still to happen.

8 leaks, 3 infestations, 1 fire, and four years later, 3 after moving out I finally sold that piece of shit house. I sold it to an elderly couple, at a loss, not only out of the goodness of my heart, but because i wanted to be rid of it. That, and im just.... SO bad and starting fires y'all. Seriously. So bad.

Anyway, to draw this little anecdote to a close, and to tie it into being a metaphor instead of simply bitching about my stupid old house (so bad at fires y'all):

You have to identify as soon as possible when you have a fundamental flaw. The new power stuff is mostly good! It really is! Stabilizers are not. To have something so broken at the core of your gameplay mechanics is insane. If everything else in the game didn't rely on a ships power so heavily, then maybe a hodgepodge of bandaids, hotfixes, and an unhealthy amount of forced design would be ok. It isn't.

I know I'm in the R/P crowd, but I always liked how starmade rewarded good engineering practices. It didn't do this with any sort of stat buff or anything. It happened naturally.

Stabilizers actively go against this.

I also liked that no matter what I wanted my ship to look like, it could work. The look could range from a Trojan horse, to a Trojan condom. Hell, if I wanted my ship to be an abstract line of animated code floating through the cosmos, with enough ingenuity I could make that too. If I wanted a rock, with an engine strapped to it, I could do that. Stabilizers actively hurt this flexibility and versatility that was once starmade's greatest strength.

I like interiors in ships. But Interiors SHOULD NEVER EVER be forced decoration. They need to have a point to them.

I do not see how stabilizers help with this, nor do I see any good reason the size and amount of MY design's interiors should be dictated by anything but my own whims and crew complement.

 

[Brokengauge]

Seriously. Be rid of them. You spend extra time on them, and the ppl who aren't fed up, will simply disable or invert the stabilizer distance requirement, anyway. It's what I'm gonna do. Seriously. I will not use them at all. And ill probably feel a little bitter that so much time was wasted on "features" I have to disable when I could have gotten improved fleet mechanics, wedged slabs, or actual "eerily moving about their business" crew npc's a little sooner.

Again, the power update was good! The chamber system, and they way power management is handled now is a vast, vast improvement! Stabilizers notwithstanding.

Interior has a purpose. To keep crew housed and protected. Without crew, interior has no point beyond decoration. A game mechanic which forced me to have a certain amount of decorative space on my ship, because of the size of my power system? This is unintuitive, confus8mg, and arbitrary.

I'm not saying anything new here. Plenty of people have said similar things before. The only ppl who defend the stabilizer system outright are the devs. Not even all of them, in fact.

Please retire stabilizers with dignity and lay it to rest. Preferably with a .45 to the head. To prevent zombification. (Talking about an abstract idea here, not an actual person)

Otherwise I'll just wait till "final release" in 2127, and I'll have my great grandkids show me how to change all the block configurations, since they'll likely have a good grasp of a few programming languages under their belts by the time they hit high school...

 

[Ankron]

Well now they've given our ships giant flaming floating dildos. I read somewhere that they can be shot. *ouch* Me thinks the power thing that goes between the stabilizer and the reactor probably needs to be graphically reworked. Just food for thought.