Open-Source Titan [NO FACTION]

[DrTarDIS]

TL:DR I wanna make a big co-build experiment. Taking notes for future here. :P

Spoiler: primary inspiration

Rendezvous with Rama - Wikipedia

Disclaimer: first post will be edited repeatedly to reflect thread contents. Make sure you check timestamps if yer confused

Are you stuck on your own build? Do you like "fixing stuff that's not quite right"? Craving something bigger? Just want to do something small? Want to test and exploit the secrets of the starmade universe? Building a really big station? Ever wanted to melt a computer? This thread might be for you.

Hopes and dreams. What I'd like to suss-out here is a framework for "building right" on ships in the over 1.5 Kilometer cumulative directions(X+Y+Z), and "well over softcap" scale. This includes using smaller entities as "parts" of the bigger design. Put an eye to:

1. multy user-ready: pilots pilot. But a ship this big needs a crew
   Spoiler: What sub-AI can do

   discuss,
   Use weapons connected to core, ex turrets, Use thrust and primary weapon {ship-ai, drone}
   to be updated based on discussion
   Spoiler: what you need players for

   discuss,
   
   I know a computer connected to an active logic block is no longer useable by AI, I suspect unconnecting from core does the same. Useful for broadside/stern/keel weapons{permission blocks?}.Charge jump drives{without logic}. Activate docked thrust. Activate Aux Power.
   
   
   To be updated based on discussion.
   
   
2. multy-faction ready (coalition ship fielding). Permission blocks are interesting. Permission-docked entity chains are REALLY interesting.
   Spoiler: Stuff about multy-faction

   Discuss
   
   permissioned dock letss you make sections of the ship available to a second faction. You can have a "public-joined" faction set as your allies, and offer docking for newbs. Spawn in "hangar" module from an alt in that faction, set it to "personal" for either that alt or your newb ally. I think you get to inherit it's thrust.
   
   Ally storage, secure cargo exchange,
   
   owner can set the "hangar" as a fleet mothership if it's built the right way. ally-contracted mining ops can be a thing.

For the math nerds:
I'm choosing some informed-arbitrary values for "module" standards. Check over my math?
systems have tolerances, The math for tolerences gets complicated. Gotta have some standards.

Spoiler: Primary Hull:

1. Spoiler: E/sec engineered to AI and player standards

   core-connected systems need to be balanced to use primary power only. These include
   

   • main ship thrust
   • core-connected weaponry
   • primary shields
   • mass enhancers(a joke at this scale)

   
   Some systems can't be used by AI, so their e/sec can come from AUX
   
   
2. Main function to ship is mobility, thrusters and aux-power will be the majority of system HP.
   Spoiler: important graphs

   • thrust gained per block, scroll out to the 200 000 thrust(Y) area, check out the blocks required X
     
   • power used per thrust =(power used by thruster) / (thrust produced by thruster)
   • 
     Capacity vs # of blocks (x)
     Weight vs # of blocks
     Slightly more readable at titanic scroll-out scale:
     Capacity(Y-blue, in ten-thousand-e-units) vs mass(y-red, direct value)
     
     
3. shield systems should be designed to softcap power. everything avter that should be designed to "brute force" 25/sec standards. Every section should have an independant sheild-bank to set values to compensate
   
   
4. Jump system(s) designed to aux-power
   
   
5. logic jumper could be dangerous...?
   
   
6. mass enhancement would be a joke with modules of this size, work-around on per-module level.
   
   
7. Mounts all titan modules in standard interface,
   
   
8. preferred expansion direction is vertical
   
   
9. Primary weapons systems unlikely to be brought to bear without significant maneuvering, long recharge high-utility reccomended. Disable AI's use of most of them, since Aux will be an issue. permission modules to let other levels of people use them, and permission the entrance the same way.

Spoiler: planned module types

1. Center-of-ship-rotation main turrets (max view/fireing arc)
2. Docked, Nested "shield plates" to add s/sec to important areas and bypass returning gains on capacity/recharge
3. "Small" "medium" and "large" docking areas designated to certain roles
   
4. designated "thruster modules" to combat the ever-increasing weight of it's symbiotic and parasitic entities via inherit-thrust. (diminishing returns)
5. transporter pads for inter-entity navigation
6. Dedicated scanner(s)
7. jump inhibitor.

Spoiler: planned copy-paste sections

1. Specification Aux-power Structures
2. specification mass:thrust:energy-generation stable(ish) corridors, intersections, navigation
   
3. Specification primary thrust
4. Plug for standard transporter pad

Spoiler: edits

Open-Source Titan

What am I missing? Do let me know about stuff you think I should plan.

 

[Gmodism]

Looks like a fun project, and a real computer melter ^^
About broadside cannons, if the are docked, as usual the players will not be good for that, but rather an AI could aim in some degree, so docked cannons need AI control. Building at this scale it sounds exciting to have much docked entities, ex thrust and interiors and such that can be placed on a docked entity, however I would advice having VERY protected docks at this scale, probably at least 50 blocks of advanced armour surrounding any docker or basic rail at any angle for such entities. The AUX is very fragile, so having a large block of cells with around 8000 blocks in each cell, the cells made up of standard or advanced armour to stop continuing instability and remain efficient. such blocks of cells should be at different locations at this scale so that the power does not go if someone locates the block and focus damage.
To protect docked entities it is a very good idea that all parts have strong independent shields.
By the way, having large scale moving rail features for this would be awesome, I cant help to think of the mass effect citadel for that, though different they both have similarities.
If there are questions about ideal weapon systems just ask me about it!

 

[StarWars1981]

-snip-
If there are questions about ideal weapon systems just ask me about it!

Big Ones.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Looks like a fun project, and a real computer melter ^^
About broadside cannons,

I was thinking something like cannon+50% beam with a public permisssion module next to primary cannon computer. Probably a chair there to make it obvious, some floating text from a display block telling people how to use it.

Last I checked this forced you to a view-from core pointed in the direction of the weapon computer. So sideways made ya look sideways from the core's PoV. Odd exception that if you had recently left another entity, and had been viewing from an arbitrary camera number, your POV on computer enter would be from that equivalent camera number on the ship-of-the-computer-you-just got-into.
Also, the cursor was kinda glitchy, sometimes it would spawn as if you were looking forward, so you had to do a lot of side-scrolling with your mouse to "shoot the right way."
I'm thinking if I engineer the core to have a 360 degree glass-view, I can mount "needs a gunner" batteries for the cardinal directions.

Got any ideas for that?

My main concern on weapons on the main ship: They NEED to have the aux online, like any REAL maneuvering. They have to be FORCED into a player-supervised role. I'm fairly certain disconnecting those computers from the core and manually connecting them to each other in build mode hides the weapon if AI ever takes over, so you can take Artificial stupIdity out of the energy stability equation. connect an active activation block to it for double-safety on that as active logic hides it too(last I checked). Then only wetware-stupidity can put a failure on the e/sec

if the are docked, as usual the players will not be good for that, but rather an AI could aim in some degree, so docked cannons need AI control. Building at this scale it sounds exciting to have much docked entities, ex thrust and interiors and such that can be placed on a docked entity, however I would advice having VERY protected docks at this scale, probably at least 50 blocks of advanced armour surrounding any docker or basic rail at any angle for such entities.

I agree 100% here. I've got some pictures to upload, sketches of the "onion of defense" I had planned. Let me know what you think.

The AUX is very fragile, so having a large block of cells with around 8000 blocks in each cell, the cells made up of standard or advanced armour to stop continuing instability and remain efficient. such blocks of cells should be at different locations at this scale so that the power does not go if someone locates the block and focus damage.

I'm currently debating the pros and cons of just using tubes of aux as the majority of the ship's structure.

Spoiler: my aux ideas and maths

While playing with the meta-maths of bruteforce, I noticed a grouping of around 7200 aux should give fairly optimum e/block, churning out about 1.2M/sec. From that I got a 7.2 radius explosion if hit, 8 explosions, at 14400 damage.

SO at 7200 block size and an 11 diameter tube of aux, you use 40 blocks of aux per "slice" of tube, after 180 slices you hit 7200.
no one explosion can "cut off a section" as well as giving each explosion a healthy surface area of non-aux blocks in it's range.
Assuming I make a 301*301*901 "frame" on which to mount everything else, a single full-length run in a line of these would net around 9 million e/sec. I'm dodgy on if I should "fill the tube" to try to soak 144k damage, or if just letting it blow a hole and hit mostly space(or a nearby docked entity) is the best bet.

Related experiment: has anyone tried to see if a nearby docked entity can "contain the explasion" by soaking damage into it's shields?

To protect docked entities it is a very good idea that all parts have strong independent shields.

I agree, I'm considering a standard like self powered around 1.4 million/sec energy cost shields/sec and 1.2 million capacity as minimum spec for each docked. I expect almost all the "visible hull" to be a good 2 entities down-chain from the mothership itself. which would yeald 3 independant recharge timers.

By the way, having large scale moving rail features for this would be awesome, I cant help to think of the mass effect citadel for that, though different they both have similarities.
If there are questions about ideal weapon systems just ask me about it!

From a cursory look at the amount of mass I want to "hang" on this thing, I'm thinking each "section" will power any motion below it on it's own. The main ship would be essentially unmoving hardpoints. Do you think it's better to keep "guarenteed e/sec" for things like primary shield regen and "basic thrust" for when yer offline?

MM What do you think of this for AI turret:Chose "yes" for effects

Have a "stream" of C:B:E 6:3:4 ratio, the front few projectiles stop effect, the next couple ion, the next couple pierce, next couple explosive, next couple punch.

all the guns should fire at once and in line if it's undamaged and power-stable. do a little bit of everything all at once, but "in order" at the same time.

 

[Gmodism]

I was thinking something like cannon+50% beam with a public permisssion module next to primary cannon computer. Probably a chair there to make it obvious, some floating text from a display block telling people how to use it.

Last I checked this forced you to a view-from core pointed in the direction of the weapon computer. So sideways made ya look sideways from the core's PoV. Odd exception that if you had recently left another entity, and had been viewing from an arbitrary camera number, your POV on computer enter would be from that equivalent camera number on the ship-of-the-computer-you-just got-into.
Also, the cursor was kinda glitchy, sometimes it would spawn as if you were looking forward, so you had to do a lot of side-scrolling with your mouse to "shoot the right way."
I'm thinking if I engineer the core to have a 360 degree glass-view, I can mount "needs a gunner" batteries for the cardinal directions.

Got any ideas for that?

My main concern on weapons on the main ship: They NEED to have the aux online, like any REAL maneuvering. They have to be FORCED into a player-supervised role. I'm fairly certain disconnecting those computers from the core and manually connecting them to each other in build mode hides the weapon if AI ever takes over, so you can take Artificial stupIdity out of the energy stability equation. connect an active activation block to it for double-safety on that as active logic hides it too(last I checked). Then only wetware-stupidity can put a failure on the e/sec




I agree 100% here. I've got some pictures to upload, sketches of the "onion of defense" I had planned. Let me know what you think.



I'm currently debating the pros and cons of just using tubes of aux as the majority of the ship's structure.

Spoiler: my aux ideas and maths

While playing with the meta-maths of bruteforce, I noticed a grouping of around 7200 aux should give fairly optimum e/block, churning out about 1.2M/sec. From that I got a 7.2 radius explosion if hit, 8 explosions, at 14400 damage.

SO at 7200 block size and an 11 diameter tube of aux, you use 40 blocks of aux per "slice" of tube, after 180 slices you hit 7200.
no one explosion can "cut off a section" as well as giving each explosion a healthy surface area of non-aux blocks in it's range.
Assuming I make a 301*301*901 "frame" on which to mount everything else, a single full-length run in a line of these would net around 9 million e/sec. I'm dodgy on if I should "fill the tube" to try to soak 144k damage, or if just letting it blow a hole and hit mostly space(or a nearby docked entity) is the best bet.

Related experiment: has anyone tried to see if a nearby docked entity can "contain the explasion" by soaking damage into it's shields?


I agree, I'm considering a standard like self powered around 1.4 million/sec energy cost shields/sec and 1.2 million capacity as minimum spec for each docked. I expect almost all the "visible hull" to be a good 2 entities down-chain from the mothership itself. which would yeald 3 independant recharge timers.


From a cursory look at the amount of mass I want to "hang" on this thing, I'm thinking each "section" will power any motion below it on it's own. The main ship would be essentially unmoving hardpoints. Do you think it's better to keep "guarenteed e/sec" for things like primary shield regen and "basic thrust" for when yer offline?

MM What do you think of this for AI turret:Chose "yes" for effects

Have a "stream" of C:B:E 6:3:4 ratio, the front few projectiles stop effect, the next couple ion, the next couple pierce, next couple explosive, next couple punch.

all the guns should fire at once and in line if it's undamaged and power-stable. do a little bit of everything all at once, but "in order" at the same time.

In case of manual gunners I highly recommend to have them as turrets, even if the movability of those turrets are very limited, maybe only a few degrees, but that will make the difference from useless to okay!

Tubes of AUX I have not tried, but it sounds like a very good idea!

The gun set up sounds solid! as long as they fire in line, but they will be decent anyways!
The ratio is good, as you have stop effect you don't want to stop the too far away.
So these turrets should be rather big, each weapon system should be at least 1K blocks, if smaller you should skip the stop effect as it will not be able to slow major things down. Also the pierce is probably excessive, may be better to make the explosive bigger with 100% support.

 

[philthy mcnasty]

Dumb question: can a jump inhibitor work if it is on a docked entity? would i need to activate it via logic, or could i put it on the tool bar?

I am asking here, because i have similar ideas for a modular titian.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Dumb question: can a jump inhibitor work if it is on a docked entity? would i need to activate it via logic, or could i put it on the tool bar?

Logic I think. Or switch entities to activate it as an astro.
Going to add That and scanners to the OP.

I am asking here, because i have similar ideas for a modular titian.

Exactly the point of this thread. Please write up a bit about your ideas and plans. I hope this can be a good resource for everyone, and your contribution is valuable.

 

[StarWars1981]

For your weapons ideas - a waffle cannon, well, with logic it's workable without the AI (and without insane power cost increases for one computer) pretty much only as C-B; C-C wastes so much time as you wouldn't believe like that. C-P might be a decent investment, if you want the grand effect. C-P-E would be your best bet - and go up to 100% on that E effect, it appears to actually go up that far and still operate with additional function. As in, the weapons menu does show, in the details sections, that it has a higher radius of explosions.

For maneuverability - FORGET ABOUT IT!. My 250m cruiser-sized ship is painful to operate (for me, at least); granted it's not built to speed around but it does have issues.

For docked pieces - mind the updates, they might cut that sort of finagling out of the game. However, sounds good. They will, however, probably soon nick the separate in-combat vs. out-of-combat regens, and even if they don't you need to be sure it takes significant punishment to open up a lower plate to shield-gen reduction due to damage.

 

[philthy mcnasty]

From what i learned on another post here: you can have a self powered jump drive entity. I am going to try a self powered docked jump drive and jump inhibitor. Having a massive uninhibited jump drive would be an advantage.

As for torpedoes: does the server have collision damage up? I have a nasty idea for a penetrating torpedo.

one of the things i have been considering is a delay connected to an area trigger in front of the torpedo. When the torpedo collides with the object, it sets off all the explosive blocks at once from the delay, making a big boom. This is an idea i got from a youtuber who was making a rail shoot out torpedo: it shoots out the explosive charges using a rail launcher block.

 

[philthy mcnasty]

another question on titans: how much power storage should they have? Currently i am at 16 million, but i am wanting at least 350 to 500 million for a nuke array, heavy overdrive sniper cannon batteries, and some large turrets. I also plan on using support modules as well. The ship is massive. very massive.....

 

[Scypio]

Take note of all of the power needed for everything using at once then add like 10/20 % to that for good measures. You should be good to go. If that's too much you can lower the thing as the titan won't be using everything at once so it's up to your taste.

 

[DrTarDIS]

another question on titans: how much power storage should they have? Currently i am at 16 million, but i am wanting at least 350 to 500 million for a nuke array, heavy overdrive sniper cannon batteries, and some large turrets. I also plan on using support modules as well. The ship is massive. very massive.....

I think the best answer I can give is the same answer I'd give for e/sec : "as big as it needs to be, with a bit extra"

I take a few things into consideration:

1. How fast does it replenish? Straight e/sec
   
2. what's the biggest draw my ship CAN see? Every weapon firing at one, while moving in 3 Axis, while charging jump, while inhibiting, while scanner is recovering, while shields are at/below 25%, while jamming radar, while....
   
3. what's the biggest draw my ship is LIKELY to sustain? one weapon firing(the largest single draw), while maneuvering, while shields are at/below 25%
   
4. How many seconds do I want to be able to do consideration 2? usually "once". Sometimes something like 5-10 seconds
   
5. How many seconds do i want to be able to do consideration 3? Usually indefinitely, but on an envelope-edge ship "less than 2 minutes" is probably fine

• #2 gives you your reccomended capacity,
  
• #3 your "minimum effective capacity"
• #4 & #5 let you calculate based on intended use.

.
One of the things I hope to get done here is nail down some basic algebra and graphs This seems as good a time as any to nail down the capacity ones. (you can scroll out on the graph to find your target)

Capacity vs # of blocks (x)
Weight vs # of blocks
Slightly more readable at titanic scroll-out scale:
Capacity(Y-blue, in ten-thousand-e-units) vs mass(y-red, direct value)

 

[philthy mcnasty]

I am going to have to start on the weapons then...

How big does a missile+damage pulse +explosive effect have to be to wipe out one planet plate? I understand that the explosive radius cutoff is something like 15 blocks? I want to have 6 planet killing nuke missiles in the front of the ship, sure they are slow but they are one nasty close range weapon. It is a great way to deal a death blow for when they decide to ram you because they have no other attacks left.

so far from what i know, a planet killing cannon is canon+damage pulse, at around 120,273 blocks, with 57,000 power capacitors to power it...

The ironic bit is that the ship is big enough to have really nasty turrets that are self powered and shielded docked to it. Most of the turrets i am building are doing cruiser level damage, and the big ones are battle ship level damage. Since they don't need pretty interiors or jump drives/support modules, they can be weapons systems only.

Then there is the logic powered missile + missile + overdrive array for the bottom of the ship, though i believe i will have that as a docked entity, and self powered as well.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Pretty sure it's 10 energy for 1 damage? e/sec will depend on cooldown,
10 damage/sec per block.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Going to lay out some mutterings and arbitrary-informed numbers for the primary hull and defensive systems.

Spoiler: Some to-scale picture.

Primary hull, black box in the attached Top-down diagram

• L301, W 301, H 1000-1200
  
• "FPS(couterstrike/halo)-like maneuvering" mouse controls able to "spin" left/right fairly quickly (for size). Up/down "spin" far,far slower, rotation keys also slowed (though rotation-mechanic might brute-force past this)
• Aux reactors, main-entity thrust, power systems in "corners" of the square.

Main-turret motion arc, green circle(s)

• active in the 251-300radius (501-601 diameter)
• Center-of-hull pivot for left-right pan, up/down pan pivoted in outer circle
• Order of docking {titan}-{center-module}-{turret base}-{turret barrel}
• {center module} of arbitrary titan dimensions (tentative W180*L180*H100) must mass enhance, provide shields, turret-dock at CoR
  
• {turret base} of arbitrary titan dimensions (tentative W501-601*L180*H100) single docker at CoR, primary mass in the green, TUrret dock at outer edge.
• {turret barrel of arbitrary titan dimensions (tentative W501-601*180*100), sigle docker for rotation, Wide-placed barrels. Convergence will allow frontal coverage by AI. Possibly powered by {turret base} or {center module}

Sheild-modules (hull plate stacks)

• "shield area" 175 radius arc composed of "area trigger" logic blocks. projectile interception but entity pass-through, rough measurements W351(arc)*H400(overlap)*L200(overlap) Teal half-circles
  
• systems contained within a stacking "plate", Rough measurements 181*181*10 Red, partially-obscured rectangles
• Each module protects 180 degrees of ship. each corner has protection from 2 sides, each side has half itself protected by the side next to it

Spoiler: Some maths:

Arbitrary aimed e/sec 1 400 000

• Brute-force e/sec @25/block (engineer to worst specifications, be happy when contraction hands you better)
  
• 1 400 000 e/sec =56 000 blocks

Shield recharge e/sec = 10*(numblock*5.5) ->how much recharge can 1.4 million e/sec cover?

• 1 400 000 = 55*(#recharger)
• 1 400 000 / 55 = #recharger
• 25 455 = #recharger

combat best recharge = #recharger * 5.5 * 0.25 * (1 - 0.5 * 25 / 100)

• X = 25 455 *5.5 *.25 * (1 - 0.5 * 25 / 100)
• X= 35 000 * (0.875)
• X= 30 625

OOC recharge = #recharger *5.5

• =25 455*5.5
• =140 002

Arbitrary plate surface area = 21200 blocks/layer

• ~3.8 layers solid fill provides e/sec, and shield recharge.
• 1 layer fill provides (21 200^0.9791797578) * 110 + 220. = 18 065 011 shield capacity
• 0.2 layer fill provides (4 240^0.9791797578) * 110 + 220. = 392 174 shield capacity

Assuming a 5-deep stack on each face each corner protected by 180(or3.9)million damage and 306 250(or 1 400 020)locally, double that if there are neighboring/overlapping plates.

PLease check my math, and comment on what you think. Mass of these modules TBA, but these numbers say at least 8 150, probably more like 9-10k when triggers applied. At 5 pfer face and 4/side =10k*5*4*4= ~800 000 docked shielding mass

 

[philthy mcnasty]

how does power transfer work from docked entities? is it down stream from biggest to smallest, or does it depend on how it is docked?

Example: if i dock an entity "backwards", where i crash a rail into a docker, does the rail entity transfer power into the docked entity?

I am curious because i had this idea of modules that feed other modules, like turrets...

 

[DrTarDIS]

AFAIK it's always Rail provides power To Docker.

I don't think you can connect 2 dockers on a single entity to 2 rails on other entities at all, but I could be wrong. Do tell me if it works out for you. "crash-docking" them. That sounds like some good old fashioned science right there.

 

[philthy mcnasty]

AFAIK it's always Rail provides power To Docker.

I don't think you can connect 2 dockers on a single entity to 2 rails on other entities at all, but I could be wrong. Do tell me if it works out for you. "crash-docking" them. That sounds like some good old fashioned science right there.

Man, it would be an utter shame if i inadvertently rediscovered a less lagish way to bring back docked generators, but with less work...

I had this crazy idea of a train of them, providing 2 mil power down stream. for added craziness, they would have turret axis on them, and the turrets would dock to them, not the ship. the turrets would just be poking out of the hull to shoot at stuff.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Man, it would be an utter shame if i inadvertently rediscovered a less lagish way to bring back docked generators, but with less work...

mm, other that "docker in use" causing you to lose all flight controls. But a step up the chain might have it's uses.

 

[Jojomo]

Man, it would be an utter shame if i inadvertently rediscovered a less lagish way to bring back docked generators, but with less work...

I had this crazy idea of a train of them, providing 2 mil power down stream. for added craziness, they would have turret axis on them, and the turrets would dock to them, not the ship. the turrets would just be poking out of the hull to shoot at stuff.

I'd assume (although I don't actually know) that the downstream (docker side) entities wouldn't add 2 million to their own power, they'd calculate their power as though the upstream reactor groups were their own groups - so still softcapped at 2 million.