1. Hey Guest! We're currently translating StarMade. Anyone can translate, if you can, feel free to!
      Dismiss Notice
    2. Interested in helping moderate SMD? We're currently looking for moderators, check out this thread.
      Dismiss Notice

    New Power and viable shapes

    Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Chances_Ghost, Dec 4, 2017.

    1. Chances_Ghost

      Joined:
      Nov 24, 2013
      Messages:
      88
      Ive been playing with the new power systems finally and for the life of me i cant find a viable shape that isn't either a cube, a giant stick to whack people with, or an Italian dinner.

      Has anyone, found any non-exploity way of designing a reactor that doesnt end up as swiss cheese or my aunts cooking?
       
      • Agree Agree x 3
      • Like Like x 1
    2. Kelpaz

      Joined:
      Jan 31, 2014
      Messages:
      73
      Warning incoming text wall ahead

      I have tested the new system and every time it's all about extending one axis a few hundred meters even for a ship with modest power the distance for stabilizers are too extreme.
      I built a reactor until stability went to 0% then I put stabbers in the "green zone" and err this is not right, here's what it looks like:
      [​IMG]
      It's a 389meters of stick, potentionally could be made better if it had "wings" with stabilizers on each side instead of the front.
      So the ship has all this potential space but it'll quickly run out of power if I build too much in between which leads to needing more power.

      I have also been refitting my flagship the "Equus" to test out the new system, which lead me to replace the internal "decorative" reactor with actual reactor blocks inside the decorative space. At first I was impressed that it worked, but it bothered me that a mere 415meters wasn't enough to achieve green zone stability so I had to waste more space for them.
      [​IMG]
      The chambers made the ship perform nicely so I added back the shields.
      Said shields went into negative regen and killed the shields wait WHAT

      Apparently you need to add more shield regen to have higher capacity shields, but that leads to needing more power which leads to... even bigger reactors, this surely can't be right, and since weapons are buffed you need shields more than ever now.

      Conclusion: The current state of power forces/encourages building bigger/longer ships and spreading systems apart.
      This system also favors dps weapons since the "top off" power required for alpha guns is too high.

      Sorry for the long text wall these issues have been bothering me for a long time now while testing the new systems.
      Now that they've gotten this far I want to see this work, I really hope the future isn't going to be sticks in space.
       
      #2 Kelpaz, Dec 4, 2017
      Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
      • Informative Informative x 3
      • Agree Agree x 2
      • Useful Useful x 1
    3. kikaha

      Joined:
      Jul 10, 2013
      Messages:
      499
      The thing is that systems are going to change after the reactor and stabilizer get their "final" tweek. So using old ship with current system weapons is not represetative of the future real outcome of a refit.

      Not certain i made myself clear enough here but...
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Informative Informative x 1
    4. Kelpaz

      Joined:
      Jan 31, 2014
      Messages:
      73
      We will just have to patiently wait I suppose, I do know that weapons were going to be expanded upon after the power update has been "stabilized".
       
      • Funny Funny x 3
    5. NeonSturm

      NeonSturm StormMaker

      Joined:
      Dec 31, 2013
      Messages:
      4,871
      Can someone post a comparision table on new power and damage values of weapons/shields everything?

      Because as far as I know you can only support smaller weapon arrays too.
       
    6. Jojomo

      Joined:
      Aug 23, 2016
      Messages:
      784
      Put your stabilisers closer to the reactor then.
       
    7. The Judge

      The Judge Local Trinovan Cancer

      Joined:
      Aug 12, 2014
      Messages:
      358
      No, as of now, the reactor system is completely broken, and Schine isn't budging.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Useful Useful x 1
    8. Kelpaz

      Joined:
      Jan 31, 2014
      Messages:
      73
      So now I got that out of the way don't you see any forced design choices here?
      I am pointing out that the current state of dev build must change in terms of stabilizers balance before it's finalized.

      I want to see better solutions to power balance than "put stabilizer Xmeters from reactor"
      Otherwise don't be surprised to see dumbbells in space, space-bananas and the space rods.

      There's very little freedom in this new system and we need to speak up now before it's too late.
       
      • Agree Agree x 4
    9. Jojomo

      Joined:
      Aug 23, 2016
      Messages:
      784
      There's more than you realise, and I think you're way too late if you think any significant changes might still happen.
       
      • Disagree Disagree x 7
    10. Snowtiger256

      Joined:
      Jul 5, 2015
      Messages:
      235
      I have several ships in various states of build in my dev build tester world that already don't conform to the strictest rule of them all, mainly the 100% stabilizer efficiency.

      These ships have stabilizers set up about 50% of the required distance at maximum, and while the amount of stabilizers is still a hefty lot (around 5-6x the amount of reactor blocks), they're working quite fine under the new power systems. I can say that I've learned enough about the power systems as they are, to know how to work around the system, and produce viable ships, despite the restrictions of the system.

      The system, as it is, requires a different mindset than the one we're used to. You can't just pull out the old power systems and expect to rebuild just that, because most of the actual systems in the ship would be too large to be powered efficiently under the new power systems. You need to actually pull out most of the systems in order to keep the balance between the systems themselves and their power requirements.

      The devs are in the process of changing systems balance to allow smaller systems to be as powerful as the ones before the update, so that there would be more room inside the hull for new systems (like the chamber system) and other stuff (such as interior, or anything else you might want to put into that space), without sacrificing the functionality we want to have on our ships.
       
      • Like Like x 1
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • Informative Informative x 1
    11. Kelpaz

      Joined:
      Jan 31, 2014
      Messages:
      73
      After testing some different reactor builds I decided to try it on my flagship as a test.
      The first thing I did was stripping out all systems which was easy with the new tools even on a large ship.

      Now I got alot of free space alright, problem is new shield mechanics are unexplained and as far as I know only one shield recharger bank seems active at one time and when I try to add back the shields the ship is supposed to have (100M) it goes into negative regen unless I add more shield rechargers which adds a bigger strain on the power.

      Open the spoilers to see some explanatory images.
      [​IMG] This is the "faceplate" [​IMG] Inside the front. [​IMG] Negative shield regen, I really do hope this is a bug and not intended feature. [​IMG] On the plus side the reactor is an actual reactor now.[​IMG] The setup [​IMG]"Free space*" *Can't be filled without spending too much power

      Will there be a server setting to atleast allow self powered docks and turrets. On my personal server this was never an issue and I don't see why they wouldn't allow atleast basic power without chambers.

      Sure If I mention this I know someone will bring up "BUT WHAT ABOUT DOCKED ARMOR" As if it was the mortal enemy to everything.
       
      • Like Like x 2
    12. Snowtiger256

      Joined:
      Jul 5, 2015
      Messages:
      235
      I took a look at the screen shots you provided, and it seems that when your shields upkeep goes over the recharge rate, the rechargers cannot keep up with it and this results in a negative regen. If this is a bug, it's an odd one, but it may also be intended behavior, keeping you from overextending the shield system beyond the limits.

      I suggest trying to add multiple smaller shield groups, rather than trying to go all out on one shield. Shields now have an area of effect shown as a "bubble" when you have shield blocks selected in the hotbar, if you use multiple smaller shield, you can add a new shield group outside the "bubble" of any shields you have previously laid down. If a shield regen group is within the "bubble" of another shield regen group, it will not function at all, if the "bubbles" of different shield groups overlap, then the stronger shield within the overlap area will be active.
       
      • Informative Informative x 3
    13. NeonSturm

      NeonSturm StormMaker

      Joined:
      Dec 31, 2013
      Messages:
      4,871
      Each capacitor bubble can only have one recharger or each recharger can only supply one capacitor bubble?
       
    14. Snowtiger256

      Joined:
      Jul 5, 2015
      Messages:
      235
      Each bubble has only one recharger bank, but can have sevaral capacitor banks. Bubbles are centered on recharger banks, so the best place for them is on the midline of the ship. When overlapping bubbles the stronger bubble is active in the overlap area, if bubble overlaps recharger banks, the strongest shield is active, while others deactivate.
       
      • Informative Informative x 2
    15. Kelpaz

      Joined:
      Jan 31, 2014
      Messages:
      73
      I've been testing around with separate shield bubbles but the problem is that it's reliant on placement and the shield radius can't be fine tuned.
      The radius of each shield bubble grows when rechargers are added, which is fine until you need more rechargers to upkeep more capacitors.

      So it's a bit over complicated in my opinion and I'm not sure what problem it's supposed to solve, there also seems to be calculation errors on shield capacity when restarting the game too.
      It's mechanically interesting to be able to build separate shield facings but there needs to be a way to fine tune radius so shield groups don't turn inactive.

      edit: It would make more sense if the bubbles connected into one area instead, while still having separate facings.
       
      #15 Kelpaz, Dec 6, 2017
      Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
      • Useful Useful x 1
    16. DoomCarrot

      Joined:
      Nov 25, 2016
      Messages:
      42
      Can I just say that this is an AWFUL update?

      Like, really horrendously game-breaking? I tried to refit some of my ships with the new power, and it just cannot be done.

      The only way to do so is to add a gigantic floaty reactor behind my ships and fill in the old ship hulls with stabalizers...

      And even then I usually don't get enough power to power all my old systems, so I end up just ripping out half my shield regens, thrusters, and weapon systems, and then end up with massive hollow spots in my ships that I have no reason/ability to fill.

      The only functional ships I have been able to build from SCRATCH with this system is just phallic shaped tubes.... I really don't want all my ships to look like 1970's rockets....

      I prefer the old xyz power much better than this stabalizer bs. I will not play on any servers that update to this newer version. It is currently almost unplayable.

      Maybe I am just doing something wrong, but lets be honest, this new system is ridiculously complicated, and I really don't have the time to go to VGHS and get a starmade master's degree.
       
      #16 DoomCarrot, Dec 6, 2017
      Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
      • Agree Agree x 3
      • Like Like x 1
      • Useful Useful x 1
    17. Kelpaz

      Joined:
      Jan 31, 2014
      Messages:
      73
      THIS I couldn't agree more I wish I could spam that agree button.
      I have kept most my ships active since pre rail just upgrading them over time.
      Now I could make a ship based on the forced design choices and make the perfect suitable shape but I don't want that, I want the freedom to design my own ship using my style which has always worked before.

      My before mentioned flagship refit test is now just "functional ship" that is mostly empty space between the bulkheads and I still have a massive interior I could make it a cruise liner with all the extra space I've got since I can't use it for anything if I want to keep my power stable.

      Is this what the devs really intended?

      Edit bonus:
      "No forced design choices, complete freedom over design"[​IMG]
       
      #17 Kelpaz, Dec 6, 2017
      Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
      • Like Like x 2
    18. The Judge

      The Judge Local Trinovan Cancer

      Joined:
      Aug 12, 2014
      Messages:
      358
      How does the new system promote creative shaping?
      All it does is encourage extremely long (or detached) ships, which limits the creative freedom of both RP and PvP players.
      Also it changing to something that isn't as bad is kinda unlikely, since Schine seems to be oblivious to our protests.
       
      • Agree Agree x 1
    19. NeonSturm

      NeonSturm StormMaker

      Joined:
      Dec 31, 2013
      Messages:
      4,871
      Power caps should have little rechargers for themselves included.
      Power rechargers are then only during-combat boosters or size adjusters.
       
    20. Kelpaz

      Joined:
      Jan 31, 2014
      Messages:
      73
      I was doing a bit of thinking about how to solve the shields and I'm not sure it warrants it's own suggestion thread, if anyone believes my idea is good enough you may snatch it and put it up for suggestion, anyways here's my take on it:

      Instead of trying to build separate bubbles all rechargers, ungrouped or not combine into a bubble that covers the entire ship by default.

      Global shields are then split into shield facings (up/down/left/right/top/bottom) and can be adjusted with a shield interface.

      The bubble would determine which shield facing would be hit depending on which angle a shot entered the sphere from.

      Feel free to elaborate on this.
       
    Loading...