New AI target and engage range is making small mass ships nearly unusable.

[Majorfatboy]

In the latest patch, AI targeting and engagement range went from 750 meters to 2500 meters. This has lead to some slight problems for Me.

I've seen the game spawn pirate patrols as large as 13 ships. Because of this, I've entered a few crumby ships into the catalog for enemy usage, so I don't end up getting My backside kicked by a baker's dozen of Isanths. This isn't a big deal though, because I could usually spot and avoid the large enemy groupings from range, avoiding combat all together, or creep up and lure just a few pirates away, and have Myself a nice dogfight.

I've got a handful of small starfighters, ranging from 28 to 50 mass. Even on their own, these ships were perfectly usable for gameplay, as I could do what I described above to even the odds. I also have a 200 mass gunship that holds it's own rather well. Basically, Small ships were viable.

Not any more.

With the new engagement range, I have had several brown trouser moments involving twelve-plus enemy fighters screaming in at maximum thrust and trying to kick My ass at the same time. Yep, one moment it's just Me in My 30 mass starfighter, doing engine tests and scouting around for new planets to check out, and then BAM! more pirates then you can shake a stick at firing at will and chasing Me until I barely manage to get more then 2.5 kilometers away from them! It's not like I could kill all of them in a single fighter! The only thing that saved My ass was I was just barely fast enough to brake contact. What if I was in My gunship? That thing only does about 120 kph. I might be able to fight them off, but I'd take so much damage in the battle, My ship would be a writeoff.

Now if I want to head out, I have no choice but to take My 4000 mass light carrier with nine turrets, two layers of hardened hull, heavy forward firepower, and the turn rate of an icecream truck.

This is the beginning of power creep.

How about making AI engagement range user-adjustable? I had plans of introducing a series of new ships into the catalog for enemy usage, but no chance in hell now! Instead, I may have to completely water down the enemy selection, and put really, really bad ships in, just so I can run My small fighters.

 

[Trafalgar]

If you want to be left alone in a little ship, the stealth tech (cloak / radar jam) is probably the way to go.

I\'m not going to say \'launch your own fighters\' since there\'s no fighter/squad management yet, nor auto-redocking. Powerful turrets covering all the angles may do the job.

I will note that it is possible to fire enough KB missiles to swat fighters out of the sky without having to aim at them, since they tend to have weak shields. But you need enough shields to tank their damage, or stealth.

 

[Snk]

Space is not for the weak, and I\'m sorry, but get used to it. It ain\'t Hello Kitty Online. Try making some stealth ships :P

 

[Majorfatboy]

Both of you fellas seem to have missed the point, and Snk, being insulting and doing the internet toughguy routine hardly inspires one to listen to you. \"Space is not for the weak\", hello kitty online....Really kid? Does anyone take you seriously? You do realize this is a video game, right?

It\'s not that I want to \"be alone in a tiny ship\", or that I want to sneak around in a stealth ship, or that I\'m too weak to fight. Quite the opposite. If you had actually read what I had posted, you would have noticed that I want to fight. You\'ll notice I said I had starfighters. Not stealth ships, not mining ships, not landers, fighters. It\'s a sandbox game where you can build and use whatever you want, remember? What\'s the point of building any ship, big or small, in any shape, size, or capability, if only ships of a certain minimal mass actually work?

Suppose I felt like dog fighting against a few similar ships? What\'s so \"weak\" about doing 250 kph, while correcting a spin, getting missile lock, and knocking out your opponents shields with your AMC at the same time? Some of us like to actually do some of the fighting ourselves, and not just easymode things by letting our automated turrets take out all the baddies.

You are aware that big ships handle differently then little ships, right? Suppose My idea of fun doesn\'t involve taking 15 seconds to do a simple 90 degree turn, or not having the option to land My ship on a planet do to it\'s size? Look up what \"sandbox game\" means.

Don\'t go belittling the abilities of others until you\'ve repeatedly blown out the cores of enemy fighters in a 30 mass ship without your bobby turrets wiping your backside for you.



My original comment stands. Either let the player adjust the engagement range and keep the current spawn numbers, or cut the spawn numbers and keep the engagement range, but not both, or eventually the only players who will stick around will be the ones who think taking a minute to do a u-turn in a floating space behemoth is actually fun.

 

[Qweesdy]

Hi,

A handful of small starfighters, ranging from 28 to 50 mass?

The game\'s little Isanth VI (something I\'d describe as a shuttle, intended to give beginners a small challenge on their very first run from spawn before they learn how to play the game) is almost 50% larger than your largest ship and almost 3 times the size of your smallest ship.

The only problem I see here is that you can/do beat the Isanth VI ships in a one-on-one fight in your mosquito toys. This shouldn\'t really happen, which means that maybe the game\'s AI needs work (so that AI in a very weak ship actually does beat a human flying around in an even weaker wet paper bag).

 

[Trafalgar]

Try a larger fighter. Say, 128 mass, with 25k or so shields.

 

[z1967]

You\'re saying to add an option to change engagement range? sounds good to me.

I really don\'t see a point in adding anything else to this so... here is a nyan cat

~=[,,_,,]:3

 

[Majorfatboy]

@Qweesdy:

Your post makes Me cry for the future of humanity. \"Mosquito toys\"? \"wet paper bag\"? I could type several paragraphs on how sad and wrong your post is, but I\'ve got work in a few hours.

@Trafalgar:

I mentioned in the OP that I have a 200 mass ship, and has about 20k shields. That ship could (maybe) handle a 13-v-1 fight, but it\'d take a metric crapton of damage in the process, and would be easy pickings for the next 13+ group of baddies to come along. The point is that repeatedly getting chased by 13-v-1 odds is grossly unbalanced. Either every fight is a complete furball that comes in from 2.5 km away and chases you, or you take a big automated ship and not do any fighting at all.

@z1967:

Yes! Thank you! either hard change the spawn count, hard change the engagement range, or allow the players themselves to adjust one or more of these to suit their game and provide a fair challenge in single player.

.....And now I have the urge to make a nyancat ship... I could even use plexlights for the rainbow.......

 

[Qweesdy]

Hi,

@Majorfatboy: I think what you\'re trying to say is that you want very agile ships that don\'t suck, and (if you could) you\'d create a decent sized ship and sacrifice some weapons/shields/power to make room for lots of manoeuvering thrusters.

If this is the case then I agree 100% - the game needs manoeuvering thrusters so that (if people are willing to pay the mass and power price) they can have agile ships that don\'t suck.

Note: Nerfing pirates isn\'t a sane option because they aren\'t a challenge for most of us already. For example; for the ship I\'ve been building half of the weapons systems don\'t exist yet and most of the shield and power generators are missing; but despite this I can still cruise past a pirate station full of turrets that happens to have a fleet of 20 priate Isanth ships visiting, and wipe out the entire lot (pirate station, turrets and Isanths) without any noticable effect on my shields. My biggest concern is accidentally destroying the pirate station\'s chests (and losing the loot) while attempting to take out the station\'s faction module.

 

[Trafalgar]

You\'re having trouble with the gunship too? It does sound like it hasn\'t got a lot of shields (for that ship mass).

Still, you could reduce the AI accuracy in the server cfg by a point or two, which may help (and they are super accurate, right now, aren\'t they?) The alternative really is - other than demanding changes - making tougher ships.

You\'re right that the Isanths are only deadly because they are coming in such huge packs.

If you\'re interested in improving your ships\' efficiency, to make room for more shields, for example, you could break down how your gunship is constructed, how many blocks of each system you have, and how you have the AMCs, power, and engines designed/arranged. (I would suggest screenshots, but I assume it\'s all covered in hull so you can\'t see a whole lot without ripping it up)

 

[Archer6621]

Honestly, the game is a bit tough at start with default economy and balance settings, a bit too tough, talking about single player here.

There\'s basically no way to outrun enemies, since the range has to become larger than 2500. While you\'re fleeing in your tiny ship, you run into other enemies too, and those will follow your ass out too, along with the other group.

Since there\'s an absolute max speed you can achieve, there is simply no way you can go faster than your enemies.

One other important flaw is that the acceleration formula is linear, which simply means that it\'s just as easy to go from 10 to 20 as it is to go from 140 to 150. Means that even if you fly through a flock of AI ships at full speed, they will get behind your ass in no-time, and achieve exactly the same speed.

If the formula would produce a curve that gets flatter as it progresses (harder to go from 140-150 than it is to go from 10-20), max speed would actually get a little bit more meaning, and make you able to outrun enemies if you wanted to... Especially early game.

This would honestly help a lot, and make things more fun as well.

EDIT: I think the whole AI aim thing is broken as well, even when I set it to 0 they have near perfect aim, a group of them can finish even a decent ship in seconds just by the aim.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Currently the AI accuracy is broken, I have not been able to have a propper fighter dog fight since that update because every ship is a core drill. I also don\'t even use the Isanth-VI but a VII version I made with better shields.

My suggestion is to turn off most of the spam in the nav menu and check it often as you are flying around. I took a stroll around the Galaxy last night and came across a pack of 6 pirate gunships. In my gunship I was looking for a fight but not against unwinnable odds so I moved on before they took any interest in me and found a pack of two gunships, an interceptor and one Isanth-VII.

Although I\'m not opposed to getting more control over our servers. I want full control over the AI, what ships they spawn in broken down by custom AI factions, how often they use specific ships and the behavior of those ships. Some run, some fight, others only defend themselves if attacked.

 

[AxNinjaX]

I agree with the original post, in that we should be able to modify AI engagement ranges. The more AI settings the better, I say.

@Sven: AI behavior is indeed quite broken; however, if you duck and weave, (alternating between W-S, A-D, using Q and E) you can avoid the majority of AI fire in a ship of appropriate size; AI targeting is most efficient vs. targets traveling at a constant velocity (direction and speed).

Also, about AI behavior: I find that AI will attempt to escape after shields are downed and hull damage is done.

Interestingly, while testing a new heavy multirole fighter that I created by spawning it as a pirate, it took damage across all of its hull rather than being drilled out; this might have been due to its relatively heavy armor, with more than 3 layers of hardened hull at some points, which bought it some time to escape.

 

[-PR-Sandbag]

If the enemy threat includes a force greater than yours, build bigger, or fly as part of a fleet - which is how fighters should work. The fact that you could previously exploit the range by luring a couple away doesn\'t indiciate that something is broken now. Why wouldnt an entire fleet of pirates attack you if you came within range?

If you\'re not going to fly as part of a fleet, cloaking is a must.

Having said all this a config option in the server.ini would be nice I guess.

 

[AGmukbooks]

trust me i love using assualt fighters and basicl landing craft but as soon as i see a pirate with a cruiser i have to run my ass outa there or im dead

 

[blindmind]

I think I see the issue you\'re talking about, and I think it has something to do with progression. When I first started, I decided it would be neat to begin with a scout / salvager rig; industrious, and compact. The pirates suggested that I rethink this and come again.

So, back at homesector, my buddy and I fashioned a cruiser out of the materials we had, you know, just laying around and such. Now we are the ones who offer suggestions.

But that\'s sort of a problem. We went from scout ships to Annihilator, Galvanizer of Galaxies, which is why I bring up progression. Pirates, I would imagine, should be a challenge. Even a singular marauder should pose a considerable threat to comparable ships. A group of 13+ should be approaching a terminal event. Also, it should be considered that pirates, as can be attributed to the nature of the profession, spend much of their time looking to ruin someone\'s day for their own benefit. That said, I would imagine a large range of engagement (maybe not as big as it currently is, I don\'t know) is more or less logical. They\'re basically highwaymen, waiting to jump out at the next passerby and demand a very violent toll.

What I would suggest is an alteration to how coodinated these pirates are. We frequently encounter pretty large groups of them which, as I\'ve said, is generally a terminal event for those of us enjoying the luxury of comparable ships. Instead of making the pirates a great deal easier to dodge, they should instead come in smaller packs much more often. It must be realized that not all criminals are in cahoots, and are required to strike out a living by their lonesome, and must also hide this fact from the authorities because of this fact.

Of course, there are also criminals who, in this economy, are fortunate enough to be in the employ of the local warlord, thusly receiving the benefits of briney company and increased firepower (as well as a bed in the blazingly bluest purple space-station they ever did see). However, it is doubtful, and incredibly uneconomical, that they would seek to spend this company and increased firepower on my scout ship, which may or may not be now equipped with Hydratic Anti-Matter Hull Boilers.

So, with that said, I offer a second suggestion. The size of a ship, measured by mass, should be weighed in when passing through or into a sector (I also believe that sectors could do with a nice inflation). Based on the weight class (or mass class for the sake of rhyming and accuracy, as weight has little value in the vacuum of space), pirates should come in larger groups with greater frequency. Pirates do slaver after a big haul, afterall.

 

[blindmind]

Good ideas all around, good man. That in combination with my suggestions about the number of random hostiles in proportion with the mass / power of the controlled ship would be great. Essentially, bigger targets should attract more attention. Smaller targets should be less at risk, more often.

 

[Qweesdy]

Hi,

I like Crashmaster\'s idea; but I think he\'s got it backwards!

All ships should have the same radar; but a small ship should be harder for radar to detect (and all radars might not be able to detect a small ship until they\'re closer than maybe 500 meters); and a huge cap ship should be a lot easier for radar to detect (and all radars might be able to detect a large 2 Km long ship from 10 Km away).

This would mean that a beginner (small ship due to lack of resources) is a lot less likely to get noticed by pirates; and a more advanced player flying a large ship (who need a tougher challange) end up being \"pirate magnets\".

 

[Trafalgar]

Isn\'t that what he just proposed?

 

[Qweesdy]

Hi,

Actually; maybe he did propose \"all ships have same radar, but larger ships are easier to detect\" (rather than \"larger ships have better radars\"). It\'s impossible to tell from the first few sentences, but re-reading the last sentence in his post makes me think I misinterpreted.