My take on the upcoming ship HP system

[CyberTao]

Your ship will have a "hull integrity" HP bar, which will be the total health of all non-system blocks on your ship. While you have hull integrity, no non-system block can be destroyed by weapons. However, exposed system blocks can still take damage. Missiles will only damage system blocks if a direct hit occurs to prevent system blocks being destroyed by explosives through walls.
Your hull integrity will also block a certain percentage of incoming fire with its armor rating, which is the average armor rating of all non-system blocks.
For example, the XxEliteNoobslayer has 10 non-system blocks. It has 3 hardened hull (200 HP, 50% armor), 2 normal hull (100 HP, 25% armor), and 5 rocks (25 HP, 0% armor). This would give the XxEliteNoobslayer 925 hull integrity with 20% armor rating.

This Part here, would have to say "No". Mainly on behalf of RP ships. It adds a 'punishment' to those who which to use non-system, non-hull blocks such as;
Plex Doors,
Any form of Crystal,
Terrain (rock was used for detailing before),
Interior Gardens,
Meshes and Grills,
Logic blocks (I dont think they are "systems" exactly, same for docking enhancers),
And just plain deco blocks/computers.
As well, armour rating could just vary depending on which block was hit? Average armour seems like something to avoid to me personally.

I honestly have no idea what is planned for the HP system, I seem to keep missing those discussions. My personal idea/opinion is to steal the connective function from Power tanks. All connected hull has it's HP added to a group, and blocks are easily destroyed after the group's HP hits 0. It would allow things like multiple layers of armour, armour plating (a group of armour placed over the outer 'skin' of a ship to add to its defenses), and armour sections (Maybe not all hull is connected, and bow/stern is separate -RP-). Also allows 'weakpoints' on RP ships (like a vent in the armour that you could fire through), more options are always nice.
The only annoyance that may stem from this (in my mind), is at the back of most current ships (where most people cover their engines with Ice crystal), there would be no hull, and thus, no protection.

The explosive destruction through walls (missiles) thing you mentioned, could maybe use the same system that was used to protect astronauts? Drawing a line and such (though would probably be lag intensive with large missiles, would be a good base to start from).


I dunno, seems to be a slight hole in your idea in the sense of RP (Not saying all things should comply to RP, but rather that if it limits RP too much, then it doesn't really fit into the idea of a Sandbox, where anyone should be able to build what they want). And could someone post in spoilers the current plan for the HP system? I really don't know what it is.
-Two cents worth

 

[WaffulMann]

Still, I still think having 3-block thick armor should do something. Perhaps...
>if a small and low-damaging bullet/beam/missile hits a hull block it checks a 3x3x3 area for other hulls, then reduces damage up to 20%
>if a giant projectile hits a hull block it checks a 10x10x10 area for other hulls, the reduces damage up to 50%, and yes that includes missile blasts.

Would force people to aim for weak spots. Critical hits like shots on computers or power blocks (maybe explosions too?) would be nice.

 

[Malacodor]

For example, the XxEliteNoobslayer has 10 non-system blocks. It has 3 hardened hull (200 HP, 50% armor), 2 normal hull (100 HP, 25% armor), and 5 rocks (25 HP, 0% armor). This would give the XxEliteNoobslayer 925 hull integrity with 20% armor rating.
Hull integrity does not regenerate, but it can be repaired by astrotechno beams.

This way adding non-system blocks that aren't hardened hull anywhere on a ship which is covered in hardened hull would reduce the armor rating. This would severely punish the use of decorative blocks, as these have no armor and don't contribute much HP.

Another thing I'd like to add. When this HP system is added...

Happens with every major game, with every major update that changes something.

Logical consequence of people being different and thus having different preferences. One can't please everybody in a suffiently large group, which proofs the number of StarMade players to be sufficiently large.

 

[Lecic]

This Part here, would have to say "No". Mainly on behalf of RP ships. It adds a 'punishment' to those who which to use non-system, non-hull blocks such as;
Plex Doors,
Any form of Crystal,
Terrain (rock was used for detailing before),
Interior Gardens,
Meshes and Grills,
Logic blocks (I dont think they are "systems" exactly, same for docking enhancers),
And just plain deco blocks/computers.
As well, armour rating could just vary depending on which block was hit? Average armour seems like something to avoid to me personally.

I honestly have no idea what is planned for the HP system, I seem to keep missing those discussions. My personal idea/opinion is to steal the connective function from Power tanks. All connected hull has it's HP added to a group, and blocks are easily destroyed after the group's HP hits 0. It would allow things like multiple layers of armour, armour plating (a group of armour placed over the outer 'skin' of a ship to add to its defenses), and armour sections (Maybe not all hull is connected, and bow/stern is separate -RP-). Also allows 'weakpoints' on RP ships (like a vent in the armour that you could fire through), more options are always nice.
The only annoyance that may stem from this (in my mind), is at the back of most current ships (where most people cover their engines with Ice crystal), there would be no hull, and thus, no protection.

The explosive destruction through walls (missiles) thing you mentioned, could maybe use the same system that was used to protect astronauts? Drawing a line and such (though would probably be lag intensive with large missiles, would be a good base to start from).


I dunno, seems to be a slight hole in your idea in the sense of RP (Not saying all things should comply to RP, but rather that if it limits RP too much, then it doesn't really fit into the idea of a Sandbox, where anyone should be able to build what they want). And could someone post in spoilers the current plan for the HP system? I really don't know what it is.
-Two cents worth

This system helps RP ships by giving them more protection than a doom cube with a single layer of armor, as all the extra hull dodads and hull and deco blocks in the interior give more HP. The average armor idea was an idea to give benefit to people who used strong hull materials. Perhaps only incorporating blocks with armor levels for the armor calculation would be better, so people aren't punished for having lights and interior gardens and what not.

I could see separation of hull segments into different amounts of hull integrity, but I don't agree with a power tank like system where the individual health of each block increases. You'd have exponentially increasing health of each block, and the block ID system doesn't support it, either. Max health of a block can only be 256, I believe.

No one really knows how the HP system is planned to work, beyond the devs, so I'm just offering my take on how it could work.

 

[CyberTao]

but I don't agree with a power tank like system where the individual health of each block increases. You'd have exponentially increasing health of each block, and the block ID system doesn't support it, either. Max health of a block can only be 256, I believe.

That was me forgetting to add a section, I meant "like power tanks" as in they all add to a single pool when connected together (you can have 2 separate groups of tanks for example, each giving their own amount of power storage). I forgot to say "drop the exponent"... much derp when I type.

 

[NeonSturm]

I have to add some logic to this thread :p

How about:

Take HP from blocks.

For small weapons, the last 16-64 blocks damaged by a weapon are stored in a meta-table with more detailed HP if they damage a new block and push one out of this list, this adds to the weapons critical damage value which decreases over a few times reload and is only usable against the same target.

Big weapons add wasted overkill damage to their critical up to 3x the damage which decreases over a few times reload time and is only usable against the same target.
​

Give Chunks/Sections hp:

Each section is minimum 1/4 ship length, maximum one chunk and a power of 2 (for easier merging/splitting).

sections count hp of all containing blocks and lose hit blocks between 40% and 0% of their health closest to the impact point.​

 

[Keptick]

I really like the way you laid it out! The only thing that I'd change is that after losing a certain % of mass that the ship core becomes destructible, instead of instantly overheating. That would make ships built with redundancy in mind able to keep on fighting even after the threshold has been passed provided that it's core doesn't get shot.

Imho it would add a nice element since ships would now need weapons to deal with shields, weapons to deal with hull, weapons to mass remove blocks and weapons with high penetration to actually core the ship. It would move away from a single weapon system being good at everything and would require some tinkering in designing specialized weapons.

 

[Yetimania]

I *love* this idea. A few added suggestions:
->AstroTechnoBeams should, if they are not pointed at a damaged block, instead repair the ship's HP/Hull Integrity. This would allow some cool effects, such as:
--->In-combat repairing: You could repair allies mid-battle before they necessarily lost blocks.
--->Mothership/Turret repair: A large ship could have some clocked/always-firing astrotechnobeams pointed at its own turrets to increase their endurance.
->AstroTechnoBeams should repair "destroyed" blocks either abstractly or from the furthest first. If they repair only the closest block/the one they are pointed at, you'll end up rebuilding only the exterior skin of the spaceship. So either the blocks need to be replaced from furthest to closest (meaning you repair the far side of the ship, then the centre, then the blocks closest to you) or an essentially random block on the ship (you point the repair beam at the ship, not caring about which block you're actually aiming at, and blocks are rebuilt until the job is done or you run out of materials).
->Turrets should be protected by the main ship's shields. Right now this isn't the case because it makes turrets essentially invincible on larger ships unless the larger ship is destroyed, but in this new system, shields going down will not necessarily mean the end of a battle, as HP will be ~50% or so of your total endurance. However, this means turrets have to be very large compared to other ship-mounted weapons, as they must protect and power themselves. That gives tiers of damage and defeat:
---> Shields up: ship and all docked ships/turrets are completely undamaged after battle. (ie, an Overwhelming Victory)
---> Shields down: Ship has taken HP damage and will need a repair vehicle; turrets are probably destroyed. (ie, a Close Victory or Narrow Defeat&escape)
---> HP out: Ship has taken major block damage and will need significant repairs/reconstruction; turrets are almost certainly destroyed; some crew may be dead. (ie, a Pyrrhic Victory or Crushing Defeat)
Right now, in battle, 99% of the time if your shields go out, your ship is destroyed almost instantly. This means that the winner almost always walks away completely unscathed (except for turrets), and the loser almost always suffers complete destruction. Only once in a battle have I ever walked away in a lightly damaged ship after a major engagement, and it was right after that shield nerf a few versions ago. Nobody in that battle expected what happened.
However, even after an overwhelming victory, most if not all ship turrets are destroyed or heavily damaged, as they are so fragile compared to the main spacecraft. Presently, even light damage is usually easier to repair by buying a new spacecraft rather than trying to replace blocks exactly as they were, so there is little difference between even light damage and complete destruction.
With this tiered damage system, there are going to be more mixed victories. An overwhelming victory would be one where the winner walks away without even having their shields breached, and so all of their turrets and blocks are in place. A closer battle would have the shields go down but the HP stay up, meaning that many or all docked ships and shields are likely destroyed (like how the game currently works) but the main ship is completely intact. A very, very close battle (or a crushing defeat followed by a narrow escape for the loser) would leave the survivor with their HP empty, meaning most of the blocks on the ship are mangled or destroyed.

EDIT:
Okay, some people pointed out that having hull damage reduction equal to the average of all damage reductions of non-system ships would penalize decorative blocks. And that's right. But there's a solution: weight the average based off of the HP of the block. So a ship with 10hardened hull with 200hp and 50% damage reduction each would have 2000 hp and 50% damage reduction in the end [Effectively 4000 damage to destroy]. A ship with 10 rocks (25hp; 0% armour) would have 250hp and 0% damage reduction [250 damage to destroy].

But a ship that had 10 hardened hull and 10 rocks would have:
HP: (200*10) + (25*10) = 2250 hp
Damage Reduction: (I'm a Classical Studies Major; I don't actually remember how to do the math for this. But it should come out to 47%)

Meaning it would take 4250 damage to destroy the ship with 10 hardened hull and 10 rocks; equal to the sum of the damage needed to destroy a ship with 10 hardened hull and a ship with 10 rocks. This means adding 10 rocks only increases your ship's survivability, even though it actually decreases total damage reduction. (Non-weighted damage reduction means that adding 10 rocks to a ship with 10 hardened hull increases HP by 250 and decreases damage reduction from 50% to 25%; effectively decreasing total damage needed to breach the hull from 4000 to 3000)

 

[Lecic]

I *love* this idea. A few added suggestions:
->AstroTechnoBeams should, if they are not pointed at a damaged block, instead repair the ship's HP/Hull Integrity. This would allow some cool effects, such as:
--->In-combat repairing: You could repair allies mid-battle before they necessarily lost blocks.
--->Mothership/Turret repair: A large ship could have some clocked/always-firing astrotechnobeams pointed at its own turrets to increase their endurance.
->AstroTechnoBeams should repair "destroyed" blocks either abstractly or from the furthest first. If they repair only the closest block/the one they are pointed at, you'll end up rebuilding only the exterior skin of the spaceship. So either the blocks need to be replaced from furthest to closest (meaning you repair the far side of the ship, then the centre, then the blocks closest to you) or an essentially random block on the ship (you point the repair beam at the ship, not caring about which block you're actually aiming at, and blocks are rebuilt until the job is done or you run out of materials).
->Turrets should be protected by the main ship's shields. Right now this isn't the case because it makes turrets essentially invincible on larger ships unless the larger ship is destroyed, but in this new system, shields going down will not necessarily mean the end of a battle, as HP will be ~50% or so of your total endurance. However, this means turrets have to be very large compared to other ship-mounted weapons, as they must protect and power themselves. That gives tiers of damage and defeat:
---> Shields up: ship and all docked ships/turrets are completely undamaged after battle. (ie, an Overwhelming Victory)
---> Shields down: Ship has taken HP damage and will need a repair vehicle; turrets are probably destroyed. (ie, a Close Victory or Narrow Defeat&escape)
---> HP out: Ship has taken major block damage and will need significant repairs/reconstruction; turrets are almost certainly destroyed; some crew may be dead. (ie, a Pyrrhic Victory or Crushing Defeat)
Right now, in battle, 99% of the time if your shields go out, your ship is destroyed almost instantly. This means that the winner almost always walks away completely unscathed (except for turrets), and the loser almost always suffers complete destruction. Only once in a battle have I ever walked away in a lightly damaged ship after a major engagement, and it was right after that shield nerf a few versions ago. Nobody in that battle expected what happened.
However, even after an overwhelming victory, most if not all ship turrets are destroyed or heavily damaged, as they are so fragile compared to the main spacecraft. Presently, even light damage is usually easier to repair by buying a new spacecraft rather than trying to replace blocks exactly as they were, so there is little difference between even light damage and complete destruction.
With this tiered damage system, there are going to be more mixed victories. An overwhelming victory would be one where the winner walks away without even having their shields breached, and so all of their turrets and blocks are in place. A closer battle would have the shields go down but the HP stay up, meaning that many or all docked ships and shields are likely destroyed (like how the game currently works) but the main ship is completely intact. A very, very close battle (or a crushing defeat followed by a narrow escape for the loser) would leave the survivor with their HP empty, meaning most of the blocks on the ship are mangled or destroyed.

I really like what you've suggested, I'm just not sure about turrets and the main ship sharing shields. With the new HP system, turrets would be much more resilient, as well. Maybe they could share shield regen, but not storage, allowing turrets to dedicate more space to shield capacitors and weapons instead of shield rechargers.

 

[Keptick]

I really like what you've suggested, I'm just not sure about turrets and the main ship sharing shields. With the new HP system, turrets would be much more resilient, as well. Maybe they could share shield regen, but not storage, allowing turrets to dedicate more space to shield capacitors and weapons instead of shield rechargers.

Yea, and you could have repair beams mounted on the ship pointed at the turrets, which would basically be like sharing HP (in a more amusing and inventive way)

 

[starhaiden]

my take on the amour side of things. I think amour should reduce the amount of damage the ships HP receive but only if that block is hit.
so if the weapon fire hit a armoured block it will do less damage to total Hp, if it hit a non armoured block it will do the same damage. So having hull on the outside of the ship will be beneficial.

 

[NeonSturm]

The problem in our current system is, that a combat only takes 11 seconds.

A weapon block has 5 dps, a shield block provides 55 hp => 11 seconds​

After these 11 seconds you are either winner or loser.

An AI may enjoy that, humans rather don't.​

With 25 to 60 power per reactor (on big ships with power-supply blocks and inoptimal build box of docked reactors calculated in)

you can sustain 0.5 to 1.2 weapons per power block
half as much as if a turret produces it's own power to bypass the soft cap.
But you can supply 10 shield regenerators as they drain less power when under fire.

=> Thus with large ships the ship with more power tanks win​

Because weapons need 10 power per damage point, shield regeneration only 1 power per damage point, defense is stronger if you can regenerate enough.

But 1 reactor and 10 shield gens == 6..7 reactos and 3..4 weapons which have 15..20 dps vs your 5.5 recharge.
Thus you need a ship with 3..4 times mass or 1.5 (^3=3.3…) times scale

But a ship that scale could have 3.3 times shield capacitors too.

=> Thus small/medium ships have a good chance to win if they are 50% larger in all directions, but everything else is equal.

​

Conclusions I took

Each shield capacitor protects against damage from 11 seconds.
Each power capacitor provides power for 8 seconds per default, growing with size.

=> 11 Seconds are too short for humans to enjoy.

Especially since it is possible to R.I.P. all Anti-fighter guns and up to 30% before the enemy can react (turrets may have only 33% of all shields)

And since you then have at max 50% of your turrets in firepower into that direction.​

The HP system will not change that as much as some expect. It will only be able to disable core-drilling with leaving 99% of a very big ship intact.

I support it because I think it is stupid to waste 1 byte of creative freedom to ultra-realistic per-block damage.

 

[Reilly Reese]

I think its funny that Yeti said only a "few" additions. :p

I agree though

 

[wolfboyft]

TBH, that's decent. BUT! I would like you all to know that we can always have piercing effect computers' defensive effect! (EXTRA ARMOUR!)

Why the BUT? I'm an idiot! :D

 

[Jonj57]

I like this, it means armour tanking can finally be a thing and a ship loaded with hardened hull wont be as easy to tear through as a sheet of paper.

 

[Yetimania]

I think its funny that Yeti said only a "few" additions. :p

I agree though

Yeah... my post got kind of carried away. Sorry about that.

 

[Lecic]

TBH, that's decent. BUT! I would like you all to know that we can always have piercing effect computers' defensive effect! (EXTRA ARMOUR!)

Why the BUT? I'm an idiot! :D

It would harden the hull as it currently does, but on both Hull and Block damage instead of just Block as it does.

 

[Ithirahad]

Just look at the planets update. People still be bitchin today wanting the old ones back.

That's for performance reasons mostly, though yeah, there is the occasional "this is new ergo it sucks bring back old planets plz" person.







...AAAaaaanyway, as for the actual topic at hand... Yes, I like this, but the armor thing should apply to every block but systems, not just hull, otherwise, as some have said, things like grilles and crystal as part of hull designs become a handicap. Being a heavy crystal user (No bad drug jokes please :P ) I would really hate it if suddenly every crystal patch on my ships became an easy target.

 

[Byamarro]

Just look at the planets update. People still be bitchin today wanting the old ones back.

Can't understeand them

 

[Lecic]

That's for performance reasons mostly, though yeah, there is the occasional "this is new ergo it sucks bring back old planets plz" person.

...AAAaaaanyway, as for the actual topic at hand... Yes, I like this, but the armor thing should apply to every block but systems, not just hull, otherwise, as some have said, things like grilles and crystal as part of hull designs become a handicap. Being a heavy crystal user (No bad drug jokes please :p ) I would really hate it if suddenly every crystal patch on my ships became an easy target.

I'm considering scrapping the "average armor" idea, but on the other hand, shouldn't players be rewarded, especially in survival, for using the more powerful and expensive armor?
Maybe it should only include blocks that have an armor rating. Hull hardening passive effects could give you an extra boost.[DOUBLEPOST=1411766909,1411764772][/DOUBLEPOST]I've made a few changes to the main post. They're in bold, as well as a summarized spoiler at the bottom of the post.