Most ships with any effective pattern of guns are now ruined

    Joined
    Jul 22, 2013
    Messages
    524
    Reaction score
    135
    It seems that schema's new power requirements for any ship with an effective gun pattern is way to extreme, it makes any previously effective gun pattern now completely ineffective. Updates should not be this harsh. It should be changed back.
     

    MrFURB

    Madman of the Girders
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2013
    Messages
    1,116
    Reaction score
    413
    Please try to provide some points to support your argument, simply saying \'this is wrong\' doesn\'t tell us anything about... Well, about how it\'s wrong. I\'d be very happy to have a discussion about AMC mechanics and the overall state of the game so long as it happens in a way that is understandable and productive.
     
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2013
    Messages
    524
    Reaction score
    135
    For example a shotgun pattern drains way to much power, previously the shotgun pattern on larger ships was the most effective. This is now not true, this update was a massive nerf.
     
    Joined
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages
    67
    Reaction score
    0
    It may be a nerf for previous, almost overpowered, shotgun-style gun batteries, but you should keep in mind that damage is still roughly the same; if you have enough power, then you can keep using old arrangements. Therefore, you can focus on efficient reactor designs if you want to retain these old arrangements.

    On the other hand, instead of mourning the loss of checkerboard arrays, you could adapt by installing larger unified AMC cannons, for these are now more effective. You win some, you lose some.
     
    Joined
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages
    50
    Reaction score
    56
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Purchased!
    The fire rate nerf and increased power conusmption ol larger guns makes shotgun builds even more OP than they were before. dammit schema
     

    FlyingDebris

    Vaygr loves my warhead bat.
    Joined
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages
    2,458
    Reaction score
    1,312
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Councillor Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    before you went and built a fleet using the design of gun schema was aiming to make impractical... Looks like we really DO hold all the cards. It seems our ships don\'t use shotguns... perfect.
     
    Joined
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages
    220
    Reaction score
    34
    The AMC nerf was a step in the right direction really. As a player who uses the large shotgun arrays (One ship has 184 800-damage AMCs) I know all to well how OP they were. As a reference, that ship now uses around 10,000,000 power per volley.

    I DO think the update; like the shield nerf, went a bit too far. Would\'ve prefered an 0.5x increase in power per array instead of 1x, but that\'s the way the hull breaches eh?

    Now, what REALLY needs to change is the effectiveness of missiles. They\'re what\'s needed to blow big chunks out of ships and they\'re utterly useless; even more so on servers with higher speed caps.
     
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    2
    Reaction score
    0
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Legacy Citizen
    Vaygre empire leader makes a serious thread about balance changes.
    Dfn leader comes on thread purely to gloat.

    Well then.
     
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2013
    Messages
    635
    Reaction score
    875
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Legacy Citizen 9
    • Master Builder Bronze
    #1 shotgun arrays were overpowered before patch

    #2 shotgun arrays, if supplied with enough power, are still overpowered (so if you really REALLY refuse to change your shotgun array, go refit the ship with more regen. eventually you\'ll have enough)

    #3 shield buff lessens the OP-ness of guns

    #4 if it\'s not working out for you, then change your shotgun array to adapt to the changes. change is neccesary.

    #5 penetration depth of volleys of shotgun shots need to be costly in energy otherwise it\'s just too easy to make a small ship and just go around killing ships several times larger (by volume)
     

    MrFURB

    Madman of the Girders
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2013
    Messages
    1,116
    Reaction score
    413
    The way I see it is that the nerfs and buffs makes the different sized AMC arrays more specialized and gives each their own weaknesses and strengths.

    It turned mounting AMCs on your ship from \'How small can I make my arrays and still use them?\' to \'What do I want these AMCs to do?\' which is a huge move in the right direction as it allows people to give more thought to deliberate design, which in turn rewards players for their creativity and forethought.

    In addition, I wouldn\'t call the set of recent changes a nerf or a buff; It is a decrease in the capabilities of offense as a whole in favor of defense and utility. Shields getting buffs while the most multiplicative statistics on weapons getting a nerf is a pretty direct sign of that.

    The \'balance\' between smaller and larger AMC arrays is also not as askew as people lead themselves to believe. Smaller AMC arrays have long been much more efficient damage-wise, and their drawbacks are shorter range and much slower projectile speed. Compared to larger arrays they rocked at dropping tons of damage in a very small engagement zone, and had the added benefit of being much better at clearing hull and ship components very fast.

    Since large weapons were part of the nerf to offense in general, shouldn\'t small weapons be as well?

    Large weapons were nerfed in such a way that they were hit where they didn\'t really have any point in the first place; their DPS and block clearing ability. This reinforces their weaknesses and makes their strengths more central to their useability.

    A similar thing was done to small arrays, but instead of taking a weakness and making it worse (Which would have been their short range and difficulty to aim with. Imagine having to be within dumbfire missile range to use small AMCs!) Schema introduced a new weakness. This new weakness being increased power requirements doesn\'t gate or limit the ability of shotgun-type AMC systems, but it gives them a higher opportunity cost. It makes you think about putting them in instead of absent-mindedly going for whatever gives you the highest DPS.

    Besides, shotgun-type AMCs don\'t need a nerf to their damage, range, or projectile speed. They\'re meant for sneaking/charging up on people and unloading all your power in them to finish them as quickly as possible. If you have longer ranged weapons than them and know they\'re coming, all you\'ve gotta do to get an advantage on an enemy is not let them close the distance.
     
    Joined
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages
    67
    Reaction score
    0
    After doing some testing, I\'ve revised my opinion on AMCs.

    Large, single cannons are now less effective than before; MrFURB argues that:


    Large weapons were nerfed in such a way that they were hit where they didn\'t really have any point in the first place; their DPS and block clearing ability.


    While AMCs aren\'t exactly meant to clear blocks, vs missiles, DPS is still a vital factor in their effectiveness; personally, I use AMCs to break through shields before unleashing missiles, and I know that some others do the same. However, recent updates have made ships that were previously very efficient, with large primary cannons and a few small auxillary cannons, extremely inefficient and energy consuming.

    Of course, I might be being a bit pessimistic. I\'ve yet to experiment with larger/less cannons.
     
    Joined
    Jun 24, 2013
    Messages
    1,491
    Reaction score
    20
    • Purchased!
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 10
    The only reason he made this is because his entire fleet is made of shotgun ships and he does not want to lose the war with 1/4 or almost 1/2 of the playerbase.
     
    Joined
    Sep 20, 2013
    Messages
    126
    Reaction score
    3
    Well that\'s exactly why I currently don\'t just save the finished ships but also the empty hull.

    I think the hull blocks will not change much again so if I now build an empty hull, I\'il also be able to respawn it, once the game leaves the current beta-state.



    Anyways...stop whining about such stuff! How can schema ever get to advanced game features if always someone starts whining if something\'s getting changed? It\'s an open beta and it\'s free so be happy. Otherwhise he could also make it a closed beta and you\'d never be able to play it for free!

    As long as it doesn\'t crash nothing should be criticized as he never said it will not change again. Balancing is normaly something a studio always does at last. It\'s useless if we have balanced ships if the game never leaves the beta-phase. I\'m sure he knows what he does so let him continue and don\'t hold him off with those peanuts.
     
    Joined
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages
    574
    Reaction score
    153
    It\'s the way the game\'s supposed to work, if you\'ve seen any sci-fi movie you\'ll know that shields are supposed to do something, not add a 0.5-second delay to the complete destruction of the ship.



    AKA AMCs are stillw ay too damn powerful. Nerf them more, I say, nerf them more!
     
    Joined
    Jul 11, 2013
    Messages
    277
    Reaction score
    20
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    FINALLY CANNONS BEHAVE LIKE THEY SHOULD! Stop whining and get on with your life.
     
    Joined
    May 25, 2013
    Messages
    228
    Reaction score
    16
    Previous designs of stealth ships with shotgun patterns can still use up to half of their arrays in sustained fire due to the large energy excess required for cloak. With a few tweaks they\'ll keep their monopoly on efficient damage dealing.

    Note that there are workarounds involving AI modules and weapon computers that make those recent changes entirely moot. It\'s especially convenient now that we have chain docking and cloaked turrets.
     
    Joined
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages
    196
    Reaction score
    157
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    I get the impression that AMC are intended to take down shields and fighters, and of course for turrets. Missiles are what we should be using for blowing chunks out of battleships. All we need is for missiles to get a speed buff, and it should be possible to create very nicely balanced ships.
     
    Joined
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages
    203
    Reaction score
    45
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 7
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    Cos I\'m not sure, it looks pretty big but all there cap ships have the same shotgun layout as the one Zoro is complaining about. Cos well... This game is still in alpha, there gonna nerf things all the time until the game stabilizes and flattens out so I think Zoro should take that in mind.