Missiles! For goodness sake, turn em' down!

[ToyotaSupra]

The missile pirates are almost like bosses! My ship, decent shielding and triple hulling matches up to an asteroid cluster with FIVE isanth type MP (tracking missile)

No problem, I have point defence set up, along with general defence turrets. I've wrecked many pirates before and I will do it again. Free loot for me. This will be over in seconds.

Oh yes, it was over in seconds. They bypassed my shielding, went straight through to my core and for some reason my point defence did not shoot AT ALL...

The same goes for stations too! Dirty big holes after the last raid, that's just ONE type MP! They're like mini bosses, nerf the pirate missiles PLEASE!

 

[Crusade]

Last I checked Mp's didnt have enough power to fire their weapons. :s
I was okay with that.

 

[aceface]

The missile pirates are almost like bosses! My ship, decent shielding and triple hulling matches up to an asteroid cluster with FIVE isanth type MP (tracking missile)

No problem, I have point defence set up, along with general defence turrets. I've wrecked many pirates before and I will do it again. Free loot for me. This will be over in seconds.

Oh yes, it was over in seconds. They bypassed my shielding, went straight through to my core and for some reason my point defence did not shoot AT ALL...

The same goes for stations too! Dirty big holes after the last raid, that's just ONE type MP! They're like mini bosses, nerf the pirate missiles PLEASE!

i've sent in a bug report about pirates being able to lock on to you even if you are radar jammed, hopefully this will be resolved soon

in my opinion the point defence turrets NEED TO BE MORE ACCURATE, I'm fine if they even have aimbot level aiming, they need to be better. I can never make a point defence turret that works and it really annoys me that many pirates one shot my small ship.

 

[blurb357]

in my opinion the point defence turrets NEED TO BE MORE ACCURATE, I'm fine if they even have aimbot level aiming, they need to be better. I can never make a point defence turret that works and it really annoys me that many pirates one shot my small ship.

yeah and they need to react faster

 

[Mered4]

i've sent in a bug report about pirates being able to lock on to you even if you are radar jammed, hopefully this will be resolved soon

in my opinion the point defence turrets NEED TO BE MORE ACCURATE, I'm fine if they even have aimbot level aiming, they need to be better. I can never make a point defence turret that works and it really annoys me that many pirates one shot my small ship.

Use a combo of Cannon-Cannon and Cannon-Missile. I can't say it works like a charm, but I'm betting it works better than just cannon-cannon.

 

[jpf190279]

There is nothing wrong with missiles as a concept with how they are intended to function. The idea is they are high yields warheads that can be countered. The fact they are penetrating through shields is still very concerning as this opens them up to abuse (but this has been an ongoing issue for a while now). But overall I have no issues dealing with incoming missiles on my server, they are obviously more lethal at close range due to lack of reaction time for anti-missile defences but easily countered at longer ranges.

Please remember guys that missiles are the ONLY weapon in the game that can be 100% negated using another weapon, you can't do that with cannons, beams or pulses, that is why they are so powerful. You can fire a nice 1,000,000 dp missile at me and I can counter it with 1 dp cannon, it does put things into perspective for you.

aceface Question: As far as I understood aceface, aren't radar jammers only might to remove you from the navigation menu so you aren't easily detected, I thought the purpose of the cloaking device was to remove you entirely from being lockable and detectable? If not then I am not sure what the difference is between the 2 devices... I have only just started playing around for the first time with radar jammers I have yet to look at the cloaking device.

 

[ToyotaSupra]

There is nothing wrong with missiles as a concept with how they are intended to function. The idea is they are high yields warheads that can be countered. The fact they are penetrating through shields is still very concerning as this opens them up to abuse (but this has been an ongoing issue for a while now). But overall I have no issues dealing with incoming missiles on my server, they are obviously more lethal at close range due to lack of reaction time for anti-missile defences but easily countered at longer ranges.

Please remember guys that missiles are the ONLY weapon in the game that can be 100% negated using another weapon, you can't do that with cannons, beams or pulses, that is why they are so powerful. You can fire a nice 1,000,000 dp missile at me and I can counter it with 1 dp cannon, it does put things into perspective for you.

aceface Question: As far as I understood aceface, aren't radar jammers only might to remove you from the navigation menu so you aren't easily detected, I thought the purpose of the cloaking device was to remove you entirely from being lockable and detectable? If not then I am not sure what the difference is between the 2 devices... I have only just started playing around for the first time with radar jammers I have yet to look at the cloaking device.

That's great, but I specifically put on at the very least 20 point defence cannons with minigun speeds and they simply...stared at the missiles. Everything was connected, and it DID fire ONE shot which missed and then...ded.

That's balanced? I don't think so
Not realistic? SM isn't realistic but if you need convincing

That's what my PDS should've looked like, maybe a second AT THE VERY VERY MOST to aim, and then fire at the thing! The reason I'm so butthurt about this is because even though literally every single other version of Isanth is chump change no matter how many is thrown at me, a single missile pirate can absolutely wreck me because you can't avoid the missiles!

Oh yes, the missiles are fine but you can't counter them due to how fast they are. That's my problem, I can't counter them.

 

[Malacodor]

According to my experience PD turrets work well if they already point in the right direction, but if not their turn rates are far too low. Turn rates for turrets should be mass based (=much higher for very small turrets).

You can fire a nice 1,000,000 dp missile at me and I can counter it with 1 dp cannon

... which may or may not hit the missile, which turns the whole thing into a gambling game.

 

[Marduk_Zoekoff]

I have been running tests on these things since they came out, there are some odd changes in the missile systems now. Obviously they blow the crabable out of every turret on the ship, and every ship in the ship, and anyone standing to close to the ship.. and sometimes even the ship.
Because they seem to be able to do massive damage against shields now too or at least a tiny 6/6/4 M/P/OD did about 5k on the ships I used it on. and with two wing drones helping we wiped out the shields and left huge holes on the 16k shield test dummy i spawned for us to ventilate. So i would say until they have time to look at the missiles a little more balance is out the window.
[DOUBLEPOST=1419871400,1419870766][/DOUBLEPOST]Why do lasers not seem to work on missiles, I tried a setup with beams and they just all pointed out where the missile was but couldn't hit it even though all twelve though the missile was at the exact same point. Every beam was crossed at that spot and followed it till it hit the hull and all the turrets vanished.

 

[JonasWalker]

I have been running tests on these things since they came out, there are some odd changes in the missile systems now. Obviously they blow the crabable out of every turret on the ship, and every ship in the ship, and anyone standing to close to the ship.. and sometimes even the ship.
Because they seem to be able to do massive damage against shields now too or at least a tiny 6/6/4 M/P/OD did about 5k on the ships I used it on. and with two wing drones helping we wiped out the shields and left huge holes on the 16k shield test dummy i spawned for us to ventilate. So i would say until they have time to look at the missiles a little more balance is out the window.

There seems to be a long standing issue with missile damage not being handled correctly. According to calcs that work for every other weapon out there armor layers that shouldn't be scratched by a missile of X damage during testing instead still suffer notable penetration. Its almost like they still partially ignore armor entirely, potentially having a minimum blast radius where armor is entirely negated to ensure some level of threat. Still trying to work out the specifics myself.

Why do lasers not seem to work on missiles, I tried a setup with beams and they just all pointed out where the missile was but couldn't hit it even though all twelve though the missile was at the exact same point. Every beam was crossed at that spot and followed it till it hit the hull and all the turrets vanished.

Allegedly only cannons can currently shoot down missiles is due Schema feeling that beam weapons, being hitscan attacks, would make PD overpowered. Sadly since there is only a generic turret accuracy which affects all AI turrets, if you buff your cannon PD turret accuracy you'll also be making the pirates more accurate too which people legitimately complained about before. Hopefully in the future we'll be able to tweak each separately.

 

[aceface]

radar jam is what makes you unlock able, cloak makes you invisible

 

[Marduk_Zoekoff]

There seems to be a long standing issue with missile damage not being handled correctly. According to calcs that work for every other weapon out there armor layers that shouldn't be scratched by a missile of X damage during testing instead still suffer notable penetration. Its almost like they still partially ignore armor entirely, potentially having a minimum blast radius where armor is entirely negated to ensure some level of threat. Still trying to work out the specifics myself.

That was a very diplomatic understatement. But I am aware of that yes. However, that does not really make it any better that it is an old problem that apparently will be with us for a longer time still.

Allegedly only cannons can currently shoot down missiles is due Schema feeling that beam weapons, being hitscan attacks, would make PD overpowered. Sadly since there is only a generic turret accuracy which affects all AI turrets, if you buff your cannon PD turret accuracy you'll also be making the pirates more accurate too which people legitimately complained about before. Hopefully in the future we'll be able to tweak each separately.

And WhAT! Let me see beams, bleh damage, feah range, and if you do stack enough mods on to do decent damage they ether take up all your power for mehe damage or they take longer to fire than the doom missiles. The only thing the might be really useful for they just said no!?!

I blame Ronald Raygun!

No Mister P you cannot make laser defense satalites.

Whaaa why not?

We have changed the laws of physics they will no longer work on missiles. People, rocks, and carbon steel yes, missiles no.... Unless its carbon steel on a missile then no.
[DOUBLEPOST=1419874095,1419873980][/DOUBLEPOST]

radar jam is what makes you unlock able, cloak makes you invisible

unless its missiles then.. no

JK there but I couldn't resist

 

[JonasWalker]

That was a very diplomatic understatement. But I am aware of that yes. However, that does not really make it any better that it is an old problem that apparently will be with us for a longer time still.

For example, I was doing some testing with custom Ad-Hull blocks set to 255 HP and 99% armor, hitting them with am 85,050 Damage missile launcher with 100% Beam/Explosive support. According to the math as we currently know it the first layer should not have been breached by a safe margin, instead here are the results.

And WhAT! Let me see beams, bleh damage, feah range, and if you do stack enough mods on to do decent damage they ether take up all your power for mehe damage or they take longer to fire than the doom missiles. The only thing the might be really useful for they just said no!?!

I blame Ronald Raygun!

No Mister P you cannot make laser defense satalites.

Whaaa why not?

We have changed the laws of physics they will no longer work on missiles. People, rocks, and carbon steel yes, missiles no.... Unless its carbon steel on a missile then no.

Only if the faction your fighting against is the CCCP. Which gives me a few ship idea's... >:D


Anyway pretty much. Of course given StarMade is still in its experimental, early years, I fully expect that will eventually be corrected. Perhaps by giving missiles actual HP pools that need to be fully depleted for a successful intercept so every hit isn't a certain kill, which if you want to throw some spice into the mix, the ratio of remaining HP to Full HP could determine how much damage is done upon impact. Ie, if you manage to reduce an incoming missiles HP by 50% it would say do 50% of its normal full damage. Likely best left adjustable if done so one can tailor it to their own tastes.

 

[Ciggofwar]

The missile OP is up to the server admin to adjust the value, the value can be done for the blocks under the set-up start menu under "modding"
you can change the armor and hit points for the blocks and there is also a setting way at the bottom for "explosion absorption" . This is a pain in the ass for this set up as it requires for adjustment to the blocks you want to adjust, as each one must be assigned a value taken much time to go through them all! rather than selecting them as a group ya, The other route is to go into the data- block behavior configure file and turn down the values of the missiles another pain in the ass, as the configure file when opened looks like the page from hell, if your not a programmer perhaps-messy. Again this done on the "server configs" by the admin. and may require some testing for value in balances. You want to address the problem with the admin of the server! they can also remove the pirate ships or simple disable there missile ability. The other option is to snip the "missile" ship from a safe distance and be happy with what you get to salvage in the time allotted - which the time loot remaining in space can also be adjusted for longer periods of time in lue of travel distance time to get the loot "safely".

The options are there for server adjustment there just a pain in the ass in there current state, as updates to the game can mean a longer down time while the server admin has to go over the configs manually for server balances, but not always the case only requiring a copy and paste.
Some issues could be from "bugs" appearing as well:0

 

[JonasWalker]

The missile OP is up to the server admin to adjust the value, the value can be done for the blocks under the set-up start menu under "modding"
you can change the armor and hit points for the blocks and there is also a setting way at the bottom for "explosion absorption" . This is a pain in the ass for this set up as it requires for adjustment to the blocks you want to adjust, as each one must be assigned a value taken much time to go through them all!
-Partial Snip-

I was under the impression that explosion absorption was a non-functional variable. If not than I need to redo my tests with it altered.

 

[Ciggofwar]

I just started toying with the settings myself and have not tested with it yet, I just saw it and added into the view of the conversation, Did not realize it was in a non-function state, and was also trying to think of a testing perimeter in which to conduct a test for it for balances, I am also trying to offset the missile OP for some sort balance play hindering it's past the shield ability for docked units.
without really a tutorial for the average user for the block editor, which would make the in-depth fun more explore able for those willing to make small contributes to the over all game, 1% from a 1000 players vs 100% from one individual to make changes of growth.
For those that use these tools on a regular basis might be in depth with it's concept of uses, nice that it has a block editor, but how does one use it, in it's entirety, being able to share some block ideas or designs with others.

 

[Ciggofwar]

I just played with the Explosion Absorption quality using dumbfire missiles ? as I'm not sure if that is what the purpose behind the quality was intended for

This the first pattern with a value of 5.0 no shield adv black hull

This is the second pattern at 25.0 almost the exact same pattern as above, with a slight less damage on the inner side now the difference is 20.0 now is that 2% or 20% values, but there was a noted difference of resistance of spread damage

This is the dumb fire system I used in the purple to the pattern as seen above with 10 missile blocks+10 amc to each tube fired relative at the same distance to the targets I would conclude that Explosion Absorption is working, as to the number of value one should set it at for the missile would be dependent on the missile system being used and the server config settings being applied for the said system and relative too the highest value presence for the Explosion Absorption, which would require varies methods of testing to find a balance point, In the middle of an overhaul and the only system that was convenient for the test.

 

[PizzaPress]

A large part of the reason why missiles are not easily intercepted is that AI apparently always aims precisely a small amount away from the target, thus missing them. "Only Bobby AIs are so precise."

It should be more random, depending on the speed of the weapons and the target, erraticness of target movement, etc., and also have a chance of a 100% accurate hit, some of the time. Not a somewhat inaccurate hit, 100% of the time. I wonder if the missile hitbox needs to be bigger?

Turrets seem to turn slower and fire in a smaller area than the player can, could just be me.
Making computers cost 2 or 3 modules' worth of resources, and not 10, would be helpful in general and for PD.

Of course, we're going to have to make anti-missile turrets have some limits to their power. Ideally, it should work very well if you have enough for the amount of missiles, and not randomly be overpowered some of the time, useless other times(Bobby being less derpy in the future, hopefully. No more turning all the way around to chase that missile that's behind you!).

It would be a small(or big, if facing a missile-happy enemy) sacrifice that keeps you from being obliterated, but becomes pointless if not facing missiles. Should do something as well about the ability to spam massive amounts of missiles and laugh at point defense too easily, too.

 

[Mered4]

*facepalm*

How do....never mind.

Look, the missile ai doesn't lead its targets. Check for yourself.

 

[JonasWalker]

So I did some testing and while Explosion Absorption does seem to have an effect there still has to be other variables we are missing. Both sets are the same 255 HP/99% armor blocks I've been using for test purposes save for explosion absorption. On the left it was left at the stock value of 0% when tested, and on the right was set to 100%.