Missile reload time fix

[Nosajimiki]

People keep commenting about how broken missile reload timers are; so, I figured I'd post a suggestion to address that. Right now missiles do not scale AT ALL to ship size. a 500k ship can not do any more dps with missiles than a 10k ship because of the way reload works. While I do not mind some manner of logarithmic falloff for bigger ships, a flat dps max is very problematic. The two reasons for this is that there is a very distinct cap on how much damage a single missile can do due to radius limits, and because missiles reload at the exact same speed regardless of magazine size. So, even with a titan, I still can't do more than about 3600 blocks of damage per second with missiles making them useless for anything other than corvettes and bombers.

There are these possible fixes to this:

Option A: Make the reload timer scale based on magazine size.

In this example, instead of a missile taking ~3 seconds to reload, you instead say that a ship takes a fixed amount of time to reload ALL missiles, and scale the time it takes to reload each based on the number of missiles it can support. So if this constant is set to 2 minutes, then a 2 missile magazine would reload 1 missile every minute, but a 20 missile magazine would reload a missile every 6 seconds. Since magazines are rather limited by the size of the ship they are on, this means bigger ships could reload missiles faster allowing for scaling DPS.

If you wish to add a logarithmic falloff, this could be achieved by applying a compounding cost to the block count you need for each successive missile you want to add to the magazine.
​

Option B: Make radius scale based on missile damage

In this example, instead of making missile reload based on magazine size, you just make potency scale better. Here, you would set blast radius based on damage. Assuming you can mostly max out a missile doing ~100 dam/volume (vs systems), this makes a good baseline. Since the volume of a sphere is V = ⁴⁄₃πr³, we can determine the formula r = ∛(π/133*Damage) .

So an explosive damage radius chart would look like this:
damage | radius
10 k | 6.2m
100 k | 13.3m
1 mil | 28.7m
10 mil | 61.8m
100 mil | 133.2m
​

Option C: Do both

Both of these limits seem kind of awkward as they are now, and implementing both fixes should make missiles integrat much better into the game as a whole. Logarithmic falloff in ammo capacity would continue to make fewer missiles the meta, but only up to the point that you can get them past AMS. What I would expect to see from a hybrid system is a scaling up of Both damage and missile count as ships get bigger. So, a 10k frigate might be armed with (4) 1-million damage missiles, but a 250k cruiser looking to get past better AMS but not wanting to pay too dearly in missile capacity might fire (20) 5-million damage missiles. You still prevent spam, but allow natural growth.​

 

[Ithirahad]

Option D: Give us a Missile Assembler/Missile Reload Module block that costs a significant amount of power to do much, and let us decide how we want to balance things out for our own ships (again, at a potentially large power cost).

 

[Nosajimiki]

Option D: Give us a Missile Assembler/Missile Reload Module block that costs a significant amount of power to do much, and let us decide how we want to balance things out for our own ships (again, at a potentially large power cost).

Personally, I do not like this idea. Missiles kind of have a new neat balance to them that is not very power based like other weapons that give them a sort of unique feel/purpose, but I will add this as an option to the survey.

 

[MacThule]

I like A+B. Personally, I feel that missiles should be rather overwhelming weapons... with very limited capacity, a terrible re-fill rate, and the ability to be 95-98% countered by sound point defense engineering. Let the cannon and beam pew-pew.

Inspired by Ithirahad - maybe a "reactor" chamber to improve missile refill rate. This would allow more competitive performance from rocket & missile specialist ships, while not directly tying missile reload to power.

 

[M.Waites]

Hm...

But wouldn't in Option A ships with a large enough magazine be able to spam missiles as they'd might have a basically infinite amount of them if the recharge is quick enough?

Least in a ship with plenty of room (magazines) but not super many missile launchers.

Bigger boom for the Bang with Option B. hm.. but as the missile itself would basically be bigger (if it would be real) it might be a slower weapon too though, which would reintroduce nukes I guess in terms of very devastating but pretty slow projectiles. Unless you want super fast super devastating missiles.

Hm, question is how does one see missiles? In much of Sci-Fi they're (missiles or torpedoes) rather a secondary weapon with beams or cannons being the primary one, yet they usually hit harder than beam or cannons, unless it's the DOOMSTUFF.

I guess one could have two different kinds of chambers which would go for the power based reloader I guess, where magazines would increase the missile count and the missile replicators (or some other name) would take care of the recharge rate for those magazines.

Would likely link both of them and say that bigger magazines need bigger amounts of replicators too, so if you have many missiles it'll take a while till all are fully loaded again compared to a smaller magazine, yet this would go back to my previous remark about ships with huge magazines, well rather huge amounts of rechargers would have a missile spam mechanic in place.

Though that would make missiles equal in terms of weapon usage and not a secondary weapon eventually.

Hm, same thing as I did say for beams and cannons each weapon type could have their own subsystems though, like the magazines and replicators for missiles, recoil dampeners for cannons and capacitors/chargers for beams.

This would give a lot of options to players and one could tweak the weapons on how one wants to use them. So like recoilless but massive cannons, or pew pew pew pulse beams (vs fighters/small ships) or PEW megabeams(vs stations, or bigger targets), same for missiles...

I guess one should have the magazine size be dependant on the damage value, so bigger misisles need more magazine space, and the rechargers would depend on the magazine size in turn.

So one could have big bang misisles which aren't super fast reloading, or smaller damage values but one could fire them a lot faster, probably good for classical swarmers (anti fighter/small ship usage/or to provide cover for the bigger missiles against enemy AMS)

 

[EricBlank]

I would go with b+d, but definitely d. Missiles should reload very slowly by default, but it should be possible to have a reasonably high capacity, and an option to add extra missile assemblers. And i do feel missile radius would better scale with damage of the missile than be fixed.

I would add that, to me, it seems necessary to associate missile cartridge blocks and assembler blocks with a missile computer, so that rather than an overall ship capacity each launcher system has its own capacity, based on size of the launcher compared to size of the cartridge/assembler count. A chamber that improves loader efficiency/speed at moderate RC cost does sound like a good idea.

 

[Nosajimiki]

But wouldn't in Option A ships with a large enough magazine be able to spam missiles as they'd might have a basically infinite amount of them if the recharge is quick enough?

This is why it is important for reload timer to scale based on magazine size.

Think like this (for example):
[edit:] I made a script to show how this would actually prevent missile spam by calculating all the way out to spamy missile values at various compounding rates for different missile count strictnesses.
Blocks Needed shown at 50%/40%/30% compounding respectivelyMissiles: 1 | Blocks Needed: 10 / 10 / 10
Missiles: 2 | Blocks Needed: 15 / 14 / 13
Missiles: 3 | Blocks Needed: 23 / 20 / 17
Missiles: 4 | Blocks Needed: 35 / 28 / 23
Missiles: 5 | Blocks Needed: 53 / 40 / 30
Missiles: 6 | Blocks Needed: 80 / 56 / 39
Missiles: 7 | Blocks Needed: 120 / 79 / 51
Missiles: 8 | Blocks Needed: 180 / 111 / 67
Missiles: 9 | Blocks Needed: 270 / 156 / 88
Missiles: 10 | Blocks Needed: 405 / 219 / 115
Missiles: 11 | Blocks Needed: 608 / 307 / 150
Missiles: 12 | Blocks Needed: 912 / 430 / 195
Missiles: 13 | Blocks Needed: 1368 / 602 / 254
Missiles: 14 | Blocks Needed: 2052 / 843 / 331
Missiles: 15 | Blocks Needed: 3078 / 1181 / 431
Missiles: 16 | Blocks Needed: 4617 / 1654 / 561
Missiles: 17 | Blocks Needed: 6926 / 2316 / 730
Missiles: 18 | Blocks Needed: 10389 / 3243 / 949
Missiles: 19 | Blocks Needed: 15584 / 4541 / 1234
Missiles: 20 | Blocks Needed: 23376 / 6358 / 1605
Missiles: 21 | Blocks Needed: 35064 / 8902 / 2087
Missiles: 22 | Blocks Needed: 52596 / 12463 / 2714
Missiles: 23 | Blocks Needed: 78894 / 17449 / 3529
Missiles: 24 | Blocks Needed: 118341 / 24429 / 4588
Missiles: 25 | Blocks Needed: 177512 / 34201 / 5965
Missiles: 26 | Blocks Needed: 266268 / 47882 / 7755
Missiles: 27 | Blocks Needed: 399402 / 67035 / 10082
Missiles: 28 | Blocks Needed: 599103 / 93849 / 13107
Missiles: 29 | Blocks Needed: 898655 / 131389 / 17040
Missiles: 30 | Blocks Needed: 1347983 / 183945 / 22152
Missiles: 31 | Blocks Needed: 2021975 / 257523 / 28798
Missiles: 32 | Blocks Needed: 3032963 / 360533 / 37438
Missiles: 33 | Blocks Needed: 4549445 / 504747 / 48670
Missiles: 34 | Blocks Needed: 6824168 / 706646 / 63271
Missiles: 35 | Blocks Needed: 10236252 / 989305 / 82253
Missiles: 36 | Blocks Needed: 15354378 / 1385027 / 106929
Missiles: 37 | Blocks Needed: 23031567 / 1939038 / 139008
Missiles: 38 | Blocks Needed: 34547351 / 2714654 / 180711
Missiles: 39 | Blocks Needed: 51821027 / 3800516 / 234925
Missiles: 40 | Blocks Needed: 77731541 / 5320723 / 305403
Missiles: 41 | Blocks Needed: 116597312 / 7449013 / 397024
Missiles: 42 | Blocks Needed: 174895968 / 10428619 / 516132
Missiles: 43 | Blocks Needed: 262343952 / 14600067 / 670972
Missiles: 44 | Blocks Needed: 393515928 / 20440094 / 872264
Missiles: 45 | Blocks Needed: 590273892 / 28616132 / 1133944
Missiles: 46 | Blocks Needed: 885410838 / 40062585 / 1474128
Missiles: 47 | Blocks Needed: 1328116257 / 56087619 / 1916367
Missiles: 48 | Blocks Needed: 1992174386 / 78522667 / 2491278
Missiles: 49 | Blocks Needed: 2988261579 / 109931734 / 3238662
Missiles: 50 | Blocks Needed: 4482392369 / 153904428 / 4210261
Missiles: 51 | Blocks Needed: 6723588554 / 215466200 / 5473340
Missiles: 52 | Blocks Needed: 10085382831 / 301652680 / 7115342
Missiles: 53 | Blocks Needed: 15128074247 / 422313752 / 9249945
Missiles: 54 | Blocks Needed: 22692111371 / 591239253 / 12024929
Missiles: 55 | Blocks Needed: 34038167057 / 827734955 / 15632408
Missiles: 56 | Blocks Needed: 51057250586 / 1158828937 / 20322131
Missiles: 57 | Blocks Needed: 76585875879 / 1622360512 / 26418771
Missiles: 58 | Blocks Needed: 114878813819 / 2271304717 / 34344403
Missiles: 59 | Blocks Needed: 172318220729 / 3179826604 / 44647724
Missiles: 60 | Blocks Needed: 258477331094 / 4451757246 / 58042042
Missiles: 61 | Blocks Needed: 387715996641 / 6232460145 / 75454655
Missiles: 62 | Blocks Needed: 581573994962 / 8725444203 / 98091052
Missiles: 63 | Blocks Needed: 872360992443 / 12215621885 / 127518368
Missiles: 64 | Blocks Needed: 1308541488665 / 17101870639 / 165773879
Missiles: 65 | Blocks Needed: 1962812232998 / 23942618895 / 215506043
Missiles: 66 | Blocks Needed: 2944218349497 / 33519666453 / 280157856
Missiles: 67 | Blocks Needed: 4416327524246 / 46927533035 / 364205213
Missiles: 68 | Blocks Needed: 6624491286369 / 65698546249 / 473466777
Missiles: 69 | Blocks Needed: 9936736929554 / 91977964749 / 615506811
Missiles: 70 | Blocks Needed: 14905105394331 / 128769150649 / 800158855
Missiles: 71 | Blocks Needed: 22357658091497 / 180276810909 / 1040206512
Missiles: 72 | Blocks Needed: 33536487137246 / 252387535273 / 1352268466
Missiles: 73 | Blocks Needed: 50304730705869 / 353342549383 / 1757949006
Missiles: 74 | Blocks Needed: 75457096058804 / 494679569137 / 2285333708
Missiles: 75 | Blocks Needed: 113185644088206 / 692551396792 / 2970933821
Missiles: 76 | Blocks Needed: 169778466132309 / 969571955509 / 3862213968
Missiles: 77 | Blocks Needed: 254667699198464 / 1357400737713 / 5020878159
Missiles: 78 | Blocks Needed: 382001548797696 / 1900361032799 / 6527141607
Missiles: 79 | Blocks Needed: 573002323196544 / 2660505445919 / 8485284090
Missiles: 80 | Blocks Needed: 859503484794816 / 3724707624287 / 11030869317
Missiles: 81 | Blocks Needed: 1289255227192224 / 5214590674002 / 14340130113
Missiles: 82 | Blocks Needed: 1933882840788336 / 7300426943603 / 18642169147
Missiles: 83 | Blocks Needed: 2900824261182504 / 10220597721045 / 24234819892
Missiles: 84 | Blocks Needed: 4351236391773756 / 14308836809463 / 31505265860
Missiles: 85 | Blocks Needed: 6526854587660634 / 20032371533249 / 40956845618
Missiles: 86 | Blocks Needed: 9790281881490952 / 28045320146549 / 53243899304
Missiles: 87 | Blocks Needed: 14685422822236428 / 39263448205169 / 69217069096
Missiles: 88 | Blocks Needed: 22028134233354640 / 54968827487237 / 89982189825
Missiles: 89 | Blocks Needed: 33042201350031960 / 76956358482132 / 116976846773
Missiles: 90 | Blocks Needed: 49563302025047940 / 107738901874985 / 152069900805
Missiles: 91 | Blocks Needed: 74344953037571900 / 150834462624979 / 197690871047
Missiles: 92 | Blocks Needed: 111517429556357860 / 211168247674971 / 256998132362
Missiles: 93 | Blocks Needed: 167276144334536770 / 295635546744960 / 334097572071
Missiles: 94 | Blocks Needed: 250914216501805150 / 413889765442944 / 434326843693
Missiles: 95 | Blocks Needed: 376371324752707700 / 579445671620122 / 564624896801
Missiles: 96 | Blocks Needed: 564556987129061570 / 811223940268171 / 734012365842
Missiles: 97 | Blocks Needed: 846835480693592300 / 1135713516375440 / 954216075595
Missiles: 98 | Blocks Needed: 1270253221040388600 / 1589998922925616 / 1240480898274
Missiles: 99 | Blocks Needed: 1905379831560583000 / 2225998492095863 / 1612625167757

Because each missile becomes progressively more expensive, you softcap how many missiles is a reasonable investment based on ship size.

 

[Crazycowbob]

I would go with b+d, but definitely d. Missiles should reload very slowly by default, but it should be possible to have a reasonably high capacity, and an option to add extra missile assemblers. And i do feel missile radius would better scale with damage of the missile than be fixed.

I would add that, to me, it seems necessary to associate missile cartridge blocks and assembler blocks with a missile computer, so that rather than an overall ship capacity each launcher system has its own capacity, based on size of the launcher compared to size of the cartridge/assembler count. A chamber that improves loader efficiency/speed at moderate RC cost does sound like a good idea.

I second this. I like the approach being taken so far, instead of nerfing the missiles themselves, limiting how many you can spam out and forcing it into a more tactical decision in order to bring more balance to the weapons systems. It reminds me of the Homeworld take with their missile destroyers, an initial onslaught of missile carnage, but if that didn't do the trick, the dps dropped dramatically afterwards, and you'd be in trouble if you didn't prepare for it.

I also would like to see the magazines be linked to the missile computer, or perhaps even have them require adjacency to a launcher group, with each magazine group feeding a specific launcher.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Bigger boom for the Bang with Option B. hm.. but as the missile itself would basically be bigger (if it would be real) it might be a slower weapon too though, which would reintroduce nukes I guess in terms of very devastating but pretty slow projectiles. Unless you want super fast super devastating missiles.

Slowing them down to make them bigger would again cause massive scaling issues for bigger ships and should be avoided as a default since that would make big ships more useless vs the bigger and more numerous AMS turrets to be found on other big ships.

Hm, question is how does one see missiles? In much of Sci-Fi they're (missiles or torpedoes) rather a secondary weapon with beams or cannons being the primary one, yet they usually hit harder than beam or cannons, unless it's the DOOMSTUFF.

I believe missiles should be able to fill the role as a primary or support weapon, since in Sci-fi they can be any of the above. For example:

Star Trek: Does not consistently depict direct fire or missiles as just primary or heavy support.
Star Wars & Battlestar Galactica: direct fire as primary, and missiles as heavy secondary.
Andromeda: Missile as primary, direct fire just as point-defence support.

There are frankly so many sci-fi franchises to pull from that it you'll find plenty of examples of each weapon class being used as either a primary or support role, but since replica building is such a big part of this game, it makes since to balance them such that any weapon class can be a main or secondary system IMO.

I guess one could have two different kinds of chambers which would go for the power based reloader I guess, where magazines would increase the missile count and the missile replicators (or some other name) would take care of the recharge rate for those magazines.

Would likely link both of them and say that bigger magazines need bigger amounts of replicators too, so if you have many missiles it'll take a while till all are fully loaded again compared to a smaller magazine, yet this would go back to my previous remark about ships with huge magazines, well rather huge amounts of rechargers would have a missile spam mechanic in place.

Though that would make missiles equal in terms of weapon usage and not a secondary weapon eventually.

A chamber that could specifically give a reload time bonus to help you spec out missile boats sounds good, but I would avoid replicators as another base system since missiles are already more complex than their counterparts and this could lead to some balancing headaches.

Hm, same thing as I did say for beams and cannons each weapon type could have their own subsystems though, like the magazines and replicators for missiles, recoil dampeners for cannons and capacitors/chargers for beams.

This would give a lot of options to players and one could tweak the weapons on how one wants to use them. So like recoilless but massive cannons, or pew pew pew pulse beams (vs fighters/small ships) or PEW megabeams(vs stations, or bigger targets), same for missiles...

I guess one should have the magazine size be dependant on the damage value, so bigger misisles need more magazine space, and the rechargers would depend on the magazine size in turn.

So one could have big bang misisles which aren't super fast reloading, or smaller damage values but one could fire them a lot faster, probably good for classical swarmers (anti fighter/small ship usage/or to provide cover for the bigger missiles against enemy AMS)

So this sounds like an under thought out idea that actually has a lot of merit! Specifically, making each weapon have a support system LIKE missile magazines. Cannon could have Dampeners to offsetting recoil. Perhaps beams could have an overheat mechanic that requires heat-sinks, and they take damage if you overuse them without it?

 

[Ithirahad]

So this sounds like an under thought out idea that actually has a lot of merit! Specifically, making each weapon have a support system LIKE missile magazines. Cannon could have Dampeners to offsetting recoil. Perhaps beams could have an overheat mechanic that requires heat-sinks, and they take damage if you overuse them without it?

Having weapons take damage if overused doesn't sound like the best idea, one reason being that new players will have no idea that it could happen and might end up blowing up their hard-earned beam array in early-game. However, I could support a mechanic where beams build up heat as they fire and then must cool down before firing again. Fairly similar to missiles, but related to total run time rather than number of shots or ticks or whatever.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Having weapons take damage if overused doesn't sound like the best idea, one reason being that new players will have no idea that it could happen and might end up blowing up their hard-earned beam array in early-game. However, I could support a mechanic where beams build up heat as they fire and then must cool down before firing again. Fairly similar to missiles, but related to total run time rather than number of shots or ticks or whatever.

I was just thinking in terms of creating a mechanic that is unique to the, beam weapons, but you are probably right that blowing up might be extreme compared to other systems. Another option would be a "focusing" block. So by default a beam does 100% damage at point blank and 0% damage at max range with linear fall-off, but a focusing system could either change the shape of that curve or increase that end-point damage.

Furthermore, it would be best if these systems naturally helped with spamming. So for beams and cannons, instead of using missile capacity to mitigate spam, you could use outputs in your docking chain so that 100 beam outputs would naturally resist focusing a lot more than 10 beam outputs. NOTE: While measuring outputs does not control actual spam as well as measuring shots/sec, this is intentional so as to keep DPS weapons viable. Also, since the game is much more permissive of beam and cannon spam, I'd make them compound at much lower rates than Missile counts.

 

[NaStral]

If there was some setting on how many missiles to build up before firing again, that would be helpful. Right now, if your using select fire missile turrets and you have appropriate capacity, you’ll get one solid alpha followed by a slow trickle of singles.

 

[Nosajimiki]

If there was some setting on how many missiles to build up before firing again, that would be helpful. Right now, if your using select fire missile turrets and you have appropriate capacity, you’ll get one solid alpha followed by a slow trickle of singles.

While a good idea as an ingame feature, this can more or less be done just fine with logic.

Connect an inner-ship remote to wireless relays to the AI on the turrets. Then you just need a little one block missile output on the main body so you can hotbar your missile counter. This way you can activate your missile turrets until you see your missiles get low or depleted. Then you turn your remote off until you see you've reloaded enough missiles.

I know you have a personal bias against remoting turrets, but this is allows granular control over firing the same missiles as an alpha or trickle pattern (both have advantages depending on your situation) and it is safer for not accidentally shooting your own faction members due to forgotten SF turrets being left on after a fight. Downside is that you could lose the logic system mid-fight, but the same could be said for whatever other AI module or block you may have envisioned for controlling this system.

 

[JNC]

- Missiles should not scale with ship size, they should scale with how large the weapon group is.
- There needs to be missile/rocket options menu because there are too many factors in design (speed/range/payload/maneuverability/HP)
- A magazine should store ammo, period. Capacity based on assigned missile group. Missile size determined by above attributes. (if no magazine you only get one shot, or 1 full capacity if missile/missile setup)
- IF a magazine is present than there should be a reload function (I dont think it needs to be a separate block) to allow reload speeds via power usage (sorta option D)
- Missiles should not use power unless being reloaded (covered with new post-fire reload mechanics)
- NO HARD CAPS on anything..... ship design should be the limiting factor which IS ALREADY regulated by material requirements etc etc etc
- In this way a small bomber could carry a 'large' single torpedo... individual missile attributes/size would determine missile mass, etc. Once group/magazine is depleted, the missile mass should be removed from ship, like cargo.
- Consider implementing warhead block features to missile weapon group i.e. a chance the whole group could explode if damaged.

As a side note, I think it'd be cool if at least 1 missile per group had to be built and present on the ship. This would be the template to determine missile attributes and mass, etc. Perhaps than, the actual weapon launcher blocks would just have to encase the missile? Maybe like the shipyard frame works now? The weapon group would be shaped like a C or U for 2 axis to match the weapons dimensions.... although this would mean that the smallest missile setups would be quite large. :/

 

[Nosajimiki]

I was just thinking in terms of creating a mechanic that is unique to the, beam weapons, but you are probably right that blowing up might be extreme compared to other systems. Another option would be a "focusing" block. So by default a beam does 100% damage at point blank and 0% damage at max range with linear fall-off, but a focusing system could either change the shape of that curve or increase that end-point damage.

Furthermore, it would be best if these systems naturally helped with spamming. So for beams and cannons, instead of using missile capacity to mitigate spam, you could use outputs in your docking chain so that 100 beam outputs would naturally resist focusing a lot more than 10 beam outputs. NOTE: While measuring outputs does not control actual spam as well as measuring shots/sec, this is intentional so as to keep DPS weapons viable. Also, since the game is much more permissive of beam and cannon spam, I'd make them compound at much lower rates than Missile counts.

A possible formula for this would be something where you need a number of blocks to meet a falloff that becomes worse with outputs and % like this:

[At this many Outputs, this many blocks are required for (25% / 50% / 75% / 100%) recoil or falloff mitigation.]

Outputs: 1 (25 / 50 / 75 / 100)
Outputs: 2 (26 / 53 / 82 / 113)
Outputs: 3 (27 / 57 / 90 / 127)
Outputs: 4 (28 / 61 / 99 / 143)
Outputs: 5 (29 / 65 / 108 / 161)
Outputs: 6 (30 / 69 / 118 / 181)
Outputs: 7 (31 / 74 / 129 / 203)
Outputs: 8 (32 / 79 / 141 / 228)
Outputs: 9 (33 / 84 / 154 / 256)
Outputs: 10 (34 / 90 / 168 / 287)
Outputs: 11 (36 / 96 / 184 / 322)
Outputs: 12 (38 / 102 / 201 / 361)
Outputs: 13 (40 / 109 / 220 / 405)
Outputs: 14 (42 / 116 / 240 / 454)
Outputs: 15 (44 / 123 / 262 / 509)
Outputs: 16 (46 / 131 / 286 / 571)
Outputs: 17 (48 / 139 / 312 / 640)
Outputs: 18 (50 / 148 / 341 / 717)
Outputs: 19 (52 / 157 / 372 / 804)
Outputs: 20 (54 / 167 / 406 / 901)
Outputs: 21 (56 / 178 / 443 / 1010)
Outputs: 22 (58 / 189 / 483 / 1132)
Outputs: 23 (60 / 201 / 527 / 1268)
Outputs: 24 (62 / 214 / 575 / 1421)
Outputs: 25 (64 / 227 / 627 / 1592)
Outputs: 26 (66 / 241 / 684 / 1784)
Outputs: 27 (68 / 256 / 746 / 1999)
Outputs: 28 (71 / 272 / 814 / 2239)
Outputs: 29 (74 / 289 / 888 / 2508)
Outputs: 30 (77 / 307 / 968 / 2809)
Outputs: 31 (80 / 326 / 1056 / 3147)
Outputs: 32 (83 / 346 / 1152 / 3525)
Outputs: 33 (86 / 367 / 1256 / 3949)
Outputs: 34 (89 / 390 / 1370 / 4423)
Outputs: 35 (92 / 414 / 1494 / 4954)
Outputs: 36 (95 / 439 / 1629 / 5549)
Outputs: 37 (98 / 466 / 1776 / 6215)
Outputs: 38 (101 / 494 / 1936 / 6961)
Outputs: 39 (105 / 524 / 2111 / 7797)
Outputs: 40 (109 / 556 / 2301 / 8733)
Outputs: 41 (113 / 590 / 2509 / 9781)
Outputs: 42 (117 / 626 / 2735 / 10955)
Outputs: 43 (121 / 664 / 2982 / 12270)
Outputs: 44 (125 / 704 / 3251 / 13743)
Outputs: 45 (129 / 747 / 3544 / 15393)
Outputs: 46 (133 / 792 / 3863 / 17241)
Outputs: 47 (137 / 840 / 4211 / 19310)
Outputs: 48 (142 / 891 / 4590 / 21628)
Outputs: 49 (147 / 945 / 5004 / 24224)
Outputs: 50 (152 / 1002 / 5455 / 27131)
Outputs: 51 (157 / 1063 / 5946 / 30387)
Outputs: 52 (162 / 1127 / 6482 / 34034)
Outputs: 53 (167 / 1195 / 7066 / 38119)
Outputs: 54 (173 / 1267 / 7702 / 42694)
Outputs: 55 (179 / 1344 / 8396 / 47818)
Outputs: 56 (185 / 1425 / 9152 / 53557)
Outputs: 57 (191 / 1511 / 9976 / 59984)
Outputs: 58 (197 / 1602 / 10874 / 67183)
Outputs: 59 (203 / 1699 / 11853 / 75245)
Outputs: 60 (210 / 1801 / 12920 / 84275)
Outputs: 61 (217 / 1910 / 14083 / 94389)
Outputs: 62 (224 / 2025 / 15351 / 105716)
Outputs: 63 (231 / 2147 / 16733 / 118402)
Outputs: 64 (238 / 2276 / 18239 / 132611)
Outputs: 65 (246 / 2413 / 19881 / 148525)
Outputs: 66 (254 / 2558 / 21671 / 166349)
Outputs: 67 (262 / 2712 / 23622 / 186311)
Outputs: 68 (270 / 2875 / 25748 / 208669)
Outputs: 69 (279 / 3048 / 28066 / 233710)
Outputs: 70 (288 / 3231 / 30592 / 261756)
Outputs: 71 (297 / 3425 / 33346 / 293167)
Outputs: 72 (306 / 3631 / 36348 / 328348)
Outputs: 73 (316 / 3849 / 39620 / 367750)
Outputs: 74 (326 / 4080 / 43186 / 411881)
Outputs: 75 (336 / 4325 / 47073 / 461307)
Outputs: 76 (347 / 4585 / 51310 / 516664)
Outputs: 77 (358 / 4861 / 55928 / 578664)
Outputs: 78 (369 / 5153 / 60962 / 648104)
Outputs: 79 (381 / 5463 / 66449 / 725877)
Outputs: 80 (393 / 5791 / 72430 / 812983)
Outputs: 81 (405 / 6139 / 78949 / 910541)
Outputs: 82 (418 / 6508 / 86055 / 1019806)
Outputs: 83 (431 / 6899 / 93800 / 1142183)
Outputs: 84 (444 / 7313 / 102243 / 1279245)
Outputs: 85 (458 / 7752 / 111445 / 1432755)
Outputs: 86 (472 / 8218 / 121476 / 1604686)
Outputs: 87 (487 / 8712 / 132409 / 1797249)
Outputs: 88 (502 / 9235 / 144326 / 2012919)
Outputs: 89 (518 / 9790 / 157316 / 2254470)
Outputs: 90 (534 / 10378 / 171475 / 2525007)
Outputs: 91 (551 / 11001 / 186908 / 2828008)
Outputs: 92 (568 / 11662 / 203730 / 3167369)
Outputs: 93 (586 / 12362 / 222066 / 3547454)
Outputs: 94 (604 / 13104 / 242052 / 3973149)
Outputs: 95 (623 / 13891 / 263837 / 4449927)
Outputs: 96 (642 / 14725 / 287583 / 4983919)
Outputs: 97 (662 / 15609 / 313466 / 5581990)
Outputs: 98 (682 / 16546 / 341678 / 6251829)
Outputs: 99 (703 / 17539 / 372430 / 7002049)

 

[Nosajimiki]

- Missiles should not scale with ship size, they should scale with how large the weapon group is.

This is what I meant and what is actually reflected in my examples.

-- There needs to be missile/rocket options menu because there are too many factors in design (speed/range/payload/maneuverability/HP)
- A magazine should store ammo, period. Capacity based on assigned missile group. Missile size determined by above attributes. (if no magazine you only get one shot, or 1 full capacity if missile/missile setup)
- In this way a small bomber could carry a 'large' single torpedo... individual missile attributes/size would determine missile mass, etc. Once group/magazine is depleted, the missile mass should be removed from ship, like cargo.
- Missiles should not use power unless being reloaded (covered with new post-fire reload mechanics)

This defeats the actual point of the ammo capacity as a way to limit missiles. This does not prevent someone from crashing a server with 10,000 micro missiles.

This is also exploitable by not having power maintenance. You could use a host to power a way overcharged a missile drones and do ridiculous alpha damage with very small drones.

- NO HARD CAPS on anything..... ship design should be the limiting factor which IS ALREADY regulated by material requirements etc etc etc

I agree, thus this is a soft cap that keeps people out of game breaking limits but in a natural and scalable way.

 

[JNC]

This defeats the actual point of the ammo capacity as a way to limit missiles. This does not prevent someone from crashing a server with 10,000 micro missiles.

This is also exploitable by not having power maintenance. You could use a host to power a way overcharged a missile drones and do ridiculous alpha damage with very small drones.

A magazine would have to be made large enough to hold whatever amount of missiles you wanted... If someone wanted 10,000 missiles they'd probably need a very large magazine; also, a large magazine doesnt mean they'd be able to fire 10,000 missiles at once, for that they'd also need a very large multi-launch setup. And I wouldnt advocate adding hard limitations to the game because it causes crashes... that seems like a game problem, not a player problem.

I think a small amount of maintenance power draw would be ok but a large missile should not ALSO (in addition to ammo in mag) need a large amount of power to be fired. It isnt a laser or AM cannon or pulse, it's a self contained weapon that is released to do it's own thing. Technically, a small drone SHOULD be able to deliver a weapon like this however, if it is small than it wont have good defences or enough thrust to carry a large missile so the odds of it actually getting to a target without being destroyed are low... AND IF IT DID guess what, missiles can be shot down.

 

[Nosajimiki]

A magazine would have to be made large enough to hold whatever amount of missiles you wanted... If someone wanted 10,000 missiles they'd probably need a very large magazine; also, a large magazine doesnt mean they'd be able to fire 10,000 missiles at once, for that they'd also need a very large multi-launch setup. And I wouldnt advocate adding hard limitations to the game because it causes crashes... that seems like a game problem, not a player problem.

I think a small amount of maintenance power draw would be ok but a large missile should not ALSO (in addition to ammo in mag) need a large amount of power to be fired. It isnt a laser or AM cannon or pulse, it's a self contained weapon that is released to do it's own thing. Technically, a small drone SHOULD be able to deliver a weapon like this however, if it is small than it wont have good defences or enough thrust to carry a large missile so the odds of it actually getting to a target without being destroyed are low... AND IF IT DID guess what, missiles can be shot down.

If each launcher holds 1 missile, I just need a lot of launchers, and you can't trust people who don't know better to not do this, because EVERYONE eventually wonders why not to just spam missiles to bypass PDS, and most people won't ask others for advice when they get that bright idea.

Small drones don't need defences. They rely on hardness to hit and your inability to target them all at once. They are also better vs AMS because of multiple attack vectors.

 

[JNC]

Yes, every launcher holds one missile already, unless its a multi-launch setup. A magazine should be a separate entity slaved to a launcher group.... just like a real magazine? It's an area on a weapon, or in a weapon system, that holds ammo or ammo parts for later use.

They arent going to be hard to hit when they're carrying a big missile really slowly.... and if they arent carrying a big missile they arent an issue for a big ship, and if you arent in a big ship than you can probably just leave the area.

Are you saying you'd rather Schine implement features to counter player tactics?? Defeating a swarm can be hard so swarms shouldnt be allowed?

 

[Nosajimiki]

Yes, every launcher holds one missile already, unless its a multi-launch setup. A magazine should be a separate entity slaved to a launcher group.... just like a real magazine? It's an area on a weapon, or in a weapon system, that holds ammo or ammo parts for later use.

If they each already hold a missile then this is likely a bug since it bypasses the magazine restrictions all together, and as mentioned, is highly exploitable. I believe I've only tested grouped missiles and swarmers so far so I have not personally seen this.

They arent going to be hard to hit when they're carrying a big missile really slowly.... and if they arent carrying a big missile they arent an issue for a big ship, and if you arent in a big ship than you can probably just leave the area.

Are you saying you'd rather Schine implement features to counter player tactics?? Defeating a swarm can be hard so swarms shouldn't be allowed?

No swarms are fine, but your assumptions about balancing factors are contrary to evidence. Drones can be slow and unarmored, and still very likely to hit their marks due to m-b ranges, and multiple vectors making it harder for AMS to retarget.