Missile-Beam, or Pulse Weapons

[godsgopher]

I ran a test this morning on missile configurations because of issues related Anti-missile systems and discovered what I can only assume is a bug. More precisely a math error on the damage inflicted by Missile-Beam weapons.

A missile-pulse set up having only 1 block of Missile and Pulse does 300 damage.
- Takes 2 minuets to reload
- Travels very slowly and is susceptible to Anti-missile Systems
- 72 Blast radius
- 100% accuracy
- 1.6 sector Range

A Missile-Beam set having only 1 block of each does 450 damage
- Takes 45 seconds to reload
- Travels far to fast to be intercepted
- 12 blast radius
- 100% accuracy
- 1.6 sector range

No other weapon systems offers this level of accuracy and rate of fire + damage per block. A blast radius of just 12 means a 24 block wide hole, a radius of 72 is a 144 block size hole. With the average internal systems only have 25hp ish.. there not going to block these attacks. Just one or two missiles will finish off a ship of any size. Even 1km long which is typical the max size on most servers I have seen.

At present ships can not carry enough shields to stop these kinds of attacks. Not to mention shield are the most expensive blocks to create in the game. The Cost of a shield vs. the cost of the weapon that will destroy that shield is seriously imbalanced.

While I understand balance will take time, I see this as game breaking. As a short term solution, please allow servers to modify there own weapon damage and stats.

-Thank you
Starmade40k Server Admin

 

[Jaaskinal]

I don't want to excuse this, it is unbalanced, but it's not unrealistic. MBT's are tanks that have some armor, but their armor isn't really effective against anything designed to kill a tank. They use their mobility as their armor. Guns have developed so much faster than armor, that it takes so many inches of steel just to stop some of the smaller more commonly used weapons. Whoever can hit accurately first wins.

 

[godsgopher]

Thank you Jaaskinal you do make a nice point.

However I would point out this is a game that is meant to be fun for everyone. If I join a sever and create a cheap missile platform that can one shot your super-dreadnought that you spent a month building than I will have a great deal of fun. But you will not enjoy it in the least. Fun must be balanced so that both players feel they have a fair shot at winning.

If you spend more time and resources on your ship, the game should reward you for that. The player who builds cheap stuff should not have an instant win weapon. Even if the real world may be like that. War is horrible and not entertaining. War-games are very fun and everyone should go home happy. Or at least eager to do better next time.

 

[CyberTao]

I'm going to assume you took the numbers from the Weapons screen? Missile+Beam should only have 150 damage per block from what the config tells me. Weapon tab has been showing wrong numbers for a while I'd been told. Though if you tested the weapons it would probably deal more damage than it should anyways, due to a staging issue.

But missiles were suppose to be countered and balanced by Point Defense turrets, as missiles are the only weapon that can be upright stopped without inflicting damage.

If you are modifying a server, make sure to adjust all affected values when you edit something; AI accuracy, Server speed, weapon ranges and speeds, and sector sizes all need to be tested and checked to make sure they work with the new settings. Since the game was adjust to work at defaults small changes can affect things to a greater extent.

You can edit your server's weapon damage and stats btw. Go to /starmade/data/configs and open the BlockBehaviourConfig.xml. There you can see the basic weapon and system stats per block as well as modifiers for the slave systems.

 

[godsgopher]

CyberTao I think I could kiss you for that information, tongue no tongue your choice! Thank you!
[DOUBLEPOST=1423245531,1423244835][/DOUBLEPOST]Ok, I'm looking on the BlockConfig.xml file but I am not seeing anything in there about weapons damage or how they link to other blocks. I do see where some of the block hitpoints and armor are managed, but not much more than this. Could you tell me specifically what I am looking for?

 

[CyberTao]

You want BlockBehaviourconfig.xml. Blockconfig is mostly to do with shops and basic block stats.
After that, you'd want to scroll down until you see a section that's like this

<BasicValues> Marks the start of base weapon w/out slave,
<Combination>
<Cannon/missile/etc>
is the slave modifier section.

At some points (not all) you'll see lines that explain the value just above it. Speed is a percentage of server speed (Missile + beam is 1.98, so 198% of server speed) and Range is with sector size. There is also options for shields, power and support systems like salvage at the top.

 

[godsgopher]

Ok, I'm seeing it now. I think I can work with this. Seriously man I think you just saved our server, this is wonderful. But a question. well we have to re-do these chanced every time there is a game update?

 

[CyberTao]

You shouldn't, a few updates ago Schema did something that should prevent the updates from overwriting the changes. Could always make a backup incase you're not sure, and just copy/paste it if it ever does revert.

Remember to test and adjust things though. Calbiri spent a lot of time trying to balance this, so just switching a few numbers might not have the affect you want (such as plays just abandoning a weapon type).

 

[godsgopher]

Thank you again CyberTao,

Were running a Warhammer 40,000 server so if players decided to abandon guided missiles none of the admins would break into tears, none the less your warning is well given. We wont modify anything without discussion and careful observation as well as well as notifying our playerbase.

 

[godsgopher]

CyberTao,

I have now studied the config file and see where you are getting the 150 damage from a 2 block guided missile (Missile-Beam). However I was seeking to apply this new knowledge and was testing a 2 block missile set in game just a few minuets ago. The Damage Impact said 450. Now I was shooting at Grey hull blocks without any armor and 50hp each. 9 blocks were destroyed.

The Damage IS 450 exactly like the readout says.

So I'm stuck with a question, If the config file says its got a x2 Buff to missile damage, then the damage ought to be 150 like you said. Consequently from my testing the math is spot on for Rockets a 5 Nerf... so 75 (base Damage) / 5 (Damage Nerf)= 15 (Damage) x 2 blocks = 30 (Damage).

Exactly what I saw hitting.

I'm trying to figure out where the extra damage is coming from, because just like you said its not in the config-file. Schema obviously has it right on the Wiki.
[DOUBLEPOST=1423251750,1423251033][/DOUBLEPOST]I just figured it out!

It works like this...

The "Nerf" is just a simple division so a Nerf of 5 = Base Damage (75) / (Nerf) 5 = damage 15

but "Buffs" have a 1 factored in (I think)

So "Buff" = 1 + Number of Blocks x "Buff" (2) x Base Damage (75) = Damage 225

OR

With a two block system it would be...

1 + 2 Blocks x 2 "Buff" x Base Damage (75) = 450 Damage
[DOUBLEPOST=1423252289][/DOUBLEPOST]Holy Crap!

I was completely wrong about pulse missiles!

I don't understand how they work... I just tested a 2 block Missile-Pulse systems Damage 300 vs. a wall of Grey hull that was 3 blocks thick. I assumed the damage would work like a regular missile.

Damage / Block HP (Grey Hull 50hp) = Number of Blocks Destroyed. So i should have been looking at 6 dead blocks...But that's not what happened.

The 300 Damage pulse missile blew out a 23 block diameter section and still punched through the Standard blocks backing the whole wall.

Now I know that its superpose to have a radius max of 72 and the hole was 23 in Diameter or a (radius of 11) but how was the damage applied? I do know from earlier experiments that shields block pulse damage the same as all missiles. So if I had shields then only 300 points damage would have been done. But I have over 10,000 points of total damage done here.

I'm still trying to figure how it applied the damage...
[DOUBLEPOST=1423253644][/DOUBLEPOST]Here's an image of the second shot the damage is 23 x 23 x 11 from a 300 damage missile

[/URL]

 

[CyberTao]

Keep in mind, the damage staging of missile needs work. Staging breaks up the radius into different parts that helps with the calculations for which blocks get destroyed.
All blocks in stage 1 destroyed => Start stage 2.
To quote someone who knows more about it

The missile stage system is hard to explain and I don't fully understand the math behind it either. Because of performance reasons he had to make it a bit easier to calculate damage although this was made a long time ago. The system is old and I'm sure he can find lots of ways to improve on it so it is 100% accurate and has not a big performance hit.

A missile has a radius, let's say...72.
The game divides that by 6. Now you have 6 different damage stages with each of them radius 12.

Damage dealt to a target goes through each stage. it is spread out over a stage. Meaning that it is not simple something like: 1st block has 200 hp, I have 150 000 damage remaining, block is destroyed, I have 149 800 damage remaining, I'll check the next block,...
This is NOT how it works, that's only checked between stages.

In a stage you have for example 100 000 start damage and it just gets distributed over that stage, the center will receive 100 000 damage, the sphere around that will get 90 000, the one after that 80 000,... till it reaches the end of a stage. This leads to largely inaccurate hull destruction as you have noticed.

The damage remaining that passes through the next stage is "accurate" though. Large missiles, like a nuke will even with a low amount of damage often devastate the 1st stage which is a big 12 radius hole.

 

[godsgopher]

Cyber that is very good information to know thank you.

I almost wrote a response saying thank you but that's not whats happening here, but then I finished reading the full post. Yes I think that's exactly what I have observed. What I don't understand is why this didn't happen with the more powerful Missile-Beam but did happen with the less powerful Missile-Pulse

 

[SunnyMao]

Frankly, both of the lock-on missiles are insanely overpowered. But Missile and Beam combo is definitely the most absurd of the two.

I thought the whole point of missiles was that they could do heavy aoe damage, but were hard to hit with. Really fast travel speed + lock on makes them more accurate than cannons. On top of that, with beams you get more range. In my single player universe, I was running around one shotting the default pirates with only 25/25 misssle / beam system. When I throw on 1000+ cannons, it still generally takes dozens of shots from close range to kill a default pirate ship. It is such a huge disparity. It is basically an "I win button" on a long cd. I personally modded missiles with lock on capability out., and I think I will need to continue this until a fix is implemented.

 

[CyberTao]

Frankly, both of the lock-on missiles are insanely overpowered. But Missile and Beam combo is definitely the most absurd of the two.

I thought the whole point of missiles was that they could do heavy aoe damage, but were hard to hit with. Really fast travel speed + lock on makes them more accurate than cannons. On top of that, with beams you get more range. In my single player universe, I was running around one shotting the default pirates with only 25/25 misssle / beam system. When I throw on 1000+ cannons, it still generally takes dozens of shots from close range to kill a default pirate ship. It is such a huge disparity. It is basically an "I win button" on a long cd. I personally modded missiles with lock on capability out., and I think I will need to continue this until a fix is implemented.

I'm pretty sure Missile+beam was made with fighter combat in mind, because there has to be a counter for everything, else the fastest ships will win. I think the non-lock missiles could do with a speed and radius buff, and missile+beam could use a speed nerf (from what I understand in the configs, it travels at almost 4 times the server speed? Cannons are 10 times for reference) but still fast enough to catch any ship not using a good overdrive. Missile+Pulse was made lockon because of how slow it was (also has a damage debuff compared to any other weapon), and since missiles are destroyable now, just add a Rapid-fire cannon array to your ship to take them out (or PD).

Missiles are definitely slower compared to the other weapons, they just seem fast compared to ship speeds. In close-space combat, trying to stay out in front of them is a must, and at longer ranges (if you cant dodge their fronts), PD would be most helpful.

 

[SunnyMao]

I'm pretty sure Missile+beam was made with fighter combat in mind, because there has to be a counter for everything, else the fastest ships will win. I think the non-lock missiles could do with a speed and radius buff, and missile+beam could use a speed nerf (from what I understand in the configs, it travels at almost 4 times the server speed? Cannons are 10 times for reference) but still fast enough to catch any ship not using a good overdrive. Missile+Pulse was made lockon because of how slow it was (also has a damage debuff compared to any other weapon), and since missiles are destroyable now, just add a Rapid-fire cannon array to your ship to take them out (or PD).

Missiles are definitely slower compared to the other weapons, they just seem fast compared to ship speeds. In close-space combat, trying to stay out in front of them is a must, and at longer ranges (if you cant dodge their fronts), PD would be most helpful.

Mostly right but missile + pulse actually has a damage buff for some reason. So at 1:1 ratio it gets 3x damage, 6x speed, 3x range AND lock on ability. The only downside is Longer cd / higher burst power use, but who cares about that when you can one shot most equal size ships.

I do understand the need for a fast ship counter. I thought that is what beams were for. That said, if missiles + beam were to cover that role, I think focus would have to be put on either ability to hit accurately and consistently, or damage. There must be a trade off. Having both just makes normal + cannon missiles incredibly weak by comparison, and takes away all the weaknesses of the missile system. If I had to make a suggestion, I would say damage (and radius) needs to come down significantly.

 

[CyberTao]

Mostly right but missile + pulse actually has a damage buff for some reason. So at 1:1 ratio it gets 3x damage, 6x speed, 3x range AND lock on ability. The only downside is Longer cd / higher burst power use, but who cares about that when you can one shot most equal size ships.

The buff is relative, almost all other weapons have a 5dps per block system, so increased damage means increased reload. Missile+Pulse has I think 2-3 dps per block?

Missile+Cannon is something that could be used with explosive to do rapid damage to hull. Missile + Beam/pulse also needs more power tanks, and due to the long reload can be counter by PD far more easily than a rapidly firing Missile+Cannon at close range.

Though the game is a sandbox, certain weapons are more meant for different styles of ships, rapid fires when their low cost per shot are ideal for small/faster ships that would be closer up I would think (or weaponized cloakers). There are options and possibilities, and the reason we can modify the config is so that people can set up the game how they would like it.

Could always set up a thread in General Discussions if you want to hear the general opinion on missiles and their slaved counterparts.

 

[SunnyMao]

The buff is relative, almost all other weapons have a 5dps per block system, so increased damage means increased reload. Missile+Pulse has I think 2-3 dps per block?

Missile+Cannon is something that could be used with explosive to do rapid damage to hull. Missile + Beam/pulse also needs more power tanks, and due to the long reload can be counter by PD far more easily than a rapidly firing Missile+Cannon at close range.

Though the game is a sandbox, certain weapons are more meant for different styles of ships, rapid fires when their low cost per shot are ideal for small/faster ships that would be closer up I would think (or weaponized cloakers). There are options and possibilities, and the reason we can modify the config is so that people can set up the game how they would like it.

Could always set up a thread in General Discussions if you want to hear the general opinion on missiles and their slaved counterparts.

Yeah I did mention cooldown and power cap change. But the problem is, you are able to front load all of that damage. To put it into the extreme, imagine if a single cannon did 50000 damage, but had a 160 minute cool down? would be a tad silly for both players involved in an encouter with that weapon. Now consider the fact that missile + beam gets this huge front end damage, which is on top of already receiving missile speed AND lock-on capability. There should be some trade off for lock on + speed. And the concept of high damage, long cd is just plain hard to balance properly.

Also I don't disagree that weapons can have types and excel at different things. But one of the best strategies around PD is to shoot more missiles, instead of shooting a select few powerful ones (i.e missile + beam / pulse and 100 groups of 2 missiles > missile + beam / pulse and 2 groups of 100 missiles). So I don't quite understand that point, since missiles don't get more hp based on the number in a single group. And for many users, missile trails are capped out at about 128 (visually). Really speaking, Missile + Cannon is way inferior to any of the lock-on types.