Making Mining interesting

[Plisko]

I think what mining is missing here is the "easter egg hunt" factor. There is no anticipation that you might find some rare thing or cause some accidental incident by surprise. You just sit there and "click. . .click. . .click" the yellow. . . then "click click click" the blue until you collect all the colors and you hope you won't need to warp away from pirates before the cargo is full. Then you build a bigger mining beam to make it go faster.

Making some colors more rare in the system won't be much help making it interesting IMHO. Spending all the time hunting around for a color is not my idea of adventure compared to finding surprises or triggering events while also gathering other things I need.

I know it is a cliche to compare to Minecraft but they actually had something good going with the mining side of it. Finding diamonds always triggered a pleasure response. There was always the danger of something sneaking up behind of accidentally falling into a hole. . accidentally hitting lava and being burned. . . finding abandoned mineshafts to explore. . . those were all easter egg hunt elements that this gane's mining mechanic is sorely lacking and redistribution of the colors is not a magic bullet for that.

The first flaw, IMHO is making asteroids all the same substances. That is just not how it works. Space rocks are mixed. A substance could be dominant but other things should have a chance of also spawning and there should be a clear way of noticing that you found something different, like a change in the color of the terrain around it. There should also be some sort of high value substance that could be anywhere and people will be excited when they find it. There could be ancient alien derelicts buried in them, or loot chests stashed by pirates. . . or volatile substances that blow up the asteroid if you aren't paying attention and leave the salvage beam on it for too long. There should be one or two things that make you want to get out and do something in person like opening a stash or investigating something up close because the salvage beam would ruin it.

Just some thoughts. The game relies heavily on resources. Gathering resources should be an entertaining event in itself. . . not a just a click click click treadmill to get to the next thing.

 

[jayman38]

So.... Randomly throw a weird or rare ore into a random spot in an asteroid, to create a pleasure response? Maybe with a pop-up message to let a player know that they have hit a magic block?

 

[Sachys]

While i can agree with some of your post, your opening paragraph indicates YOU need to make mining more interesting for yourself, and most likely beginning with learning how to make a better miner.

Mining arrays CAN vapourise roids in a short time without lagging the server / your computer to hell without "click. . .click. . .click" - hell, half the time I'm scanjamming and making plans against enemies using the starmap.

Think beyond ""click. . .click. . .click"

 

[Plisko]

While i can agree with some of your post, your opening paragraph indicates YOU need to make mining more interesting for yourself, and most likely beginning with learning how to make a better miner.

Mining arrays CAN vapourise roids in a short time without lagging the server / your computer to hell without "click. . .click. . .click" - hell, half the time I'm scanjamming and making plans against enemies using the starmap.

Think beyond ""click. . .click. . .click"

I suppose you could say that about anything someone wants improved. If they don't like it it's their own fault. Yes, I built an asteroid miner that vaporizes an asteroid in 5 seconds. So now it's click. . . fly. . . click. . . fly. I'm sorry, it didn't make it much more interesting. The point is that if something is a key part of a survival game mechanic it should be interesting. The solution shouldn't be that I need to just get past it quickly. I still need to fly around looking for the things. I can avoid it entirely by just building stuff in creative mode. . . that doesn't make survival more interesting.
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So.... Randomly throw a weird or rare ore into a random spot in an asteroid, to create a pleasure response? Maybe with a pop-up message to let a player know that they have hit a magic block?

Right, that's one idea. . . some sort of obvious, glowy, substance with a rare chance of appearing that makes you go 'YESS!!" for whatever reason when you find it. Maybe it is worth a lot of credits at shops. Maybe it makes power systems more efficient like a consumable fuel. Maybe you can put it in a refinery and it will become any capsule you want. Some sort of reward that triggers the pleasure response and makes us want to keep looking in case there is more. . . like a slot machine. This is a very standard tactic in getting people to be interested and invested in something. With Minecraft it was diamonds. They almost single handedly made mining more interesting.

Making, say, purple asteroids extremely rare in one area is not enough in my opinion.

 

[Sachys]

The point is that if something is a key part of a survival game mechanic it should be interesting. The solution shouldn't be that I need to just get past it quickly.

No.

The point is, that this isnt a survival game, its currently a sandbox game based around building with a pretense of survival. Therefore, you need learn to build better, and learn to enjoy the sandbox facets more to get beyond your "click. . .click. . .click" barrier.

Like I said, I can agree with some of your points.




...but your opening paragraph puts you in a weird place to make those claims. Until you understand mining, dont consider it dull. Theres much more to it than meets the eye of the brickmaker!

 

[Plisko]

No.

The point is, that this isnt a survival game, its currently a sandbox game based around building with a pretense of survival. Therefore, you need learn to build better, and learn to enjoy the sandbox facets more to get beyond your "click. . .click. . .click" barrier.

Like I said, I can agree with some of your points.




...but your opening paragraph puts you in a weird place to make those claims. Until you understand mining, dont consider it dull. Theres much more to it than meets the eye of the brickmaker!

If that's the point then it is confusing so maybe I do need schooling.

This game lets you build things with resources and those resources require lots of salvage beam use and using that beam involves clicking and not much else. Are we disagreeing on that?

You're saying this is a complicated and subtle process and I just don't understand the nuances of shooting a rock? Or are you saying that shooting rocks is not something people need to be interested in doing because building something cool and flying around with friends is really what it's all about? I would agree that it's a big part of it but I guarantee you there are still lots of rocks that need shooting in between all that.

We can quibble about what a survival game is but if we can't design and build awesome item A until we collect resources from source B, then there is nothing wrong with saying that going to B should also be interesting, at least if you want resources and exploring to be anything but a short lived novelty.


Maybe you can help me out here by explaining how there is more to mining than shooting rock and then moving to another rock and shooting it too? What else is there? How do you agree with some of my points when they all depend on the first paragraph that you don't like? Sorry I'm just trying to understand where I am going off base in this. . .

I have like 300 hours into this game so far. . . I would like to think I have some grasp of it but maybe I don't.

 

[Lone_Puppy]

As for making mining interesting, I tend to make my own fun using what's already in the game.
The idea of something special in the asteroid appeals to me along with more types resources of varying degrees in the asteroids.

I wish there was more that could be done at the astronaut level.

*UPDATE* added "types" in front of resources.

 

[DevajC]

If that's the point then it is confusing so maybe I do need schooling.

This game lets you build things with resources and those resources require lots of salvage beam use and using that beam involves clicking and not much else. Are we disagreeing on that?

You're saying this is a complicated and subtle process and I just don't understand the nuances of shooting a rock? Or are you saying that shooting rocks is not something people need to be interested in doing because building something cool and flying around with friends is really what it's all about? I would agree that it's a big part of it but I guarantee you there are still lots of rocks that need shooting in between all that.

We can quibble about what a survival game is but if we can't design and build awesome item A until we collect resources from source B, then there is nothing wrong with saying that going to B should also be interesting, at least if you want resources and exploring to be anything but a short lived novelty.


Maybe you can help me out here by explaining how there is more to mining than shooting rock and then moving to another rock and shooting it too? What else is there? How do you agree with some of my points when they all depend on the first paragraph that you don't like? Sorry I'm just trying to understand where I am going off base in this. . .

I have like 300 hours into this game so far. . . I would like to think I have some grasp of it but maybe I don't.

I dont quite understand what he's saying either. You already said you made a miner that can eat asteroids in 5 seconds, that's where the fun of mining begins and ends, unfortunately. It definitely needs to be more enjoyable.

 

[Ryuusei]

While I will say that I haven't got a mining ship that can chew through an asteroid in 5 seconds (working on it), I tend to have to agree with the OP.

It's nice when you fly around and find that first asteroid that's 300k blocks large and you go, "hell yeah! Lots of resources here!" However, after you mine it all, fly around, and mine up 50 more asteroids of varying sizes and resources, you get to this place where you simply say, "Oh, look. Another asteroid. Yay me...." because you already collected 100k or more of each of the resources you can get from asteroids.

Having something exciting and/or interesting that can happen while you are on your mining trips would make it much more enjoyable. And, while the OP may not have thought of this, having those little pleasure responses might actually help the game with player retention. Because, let's face it. Updates are coming out, but it's somewhat struggling to get people interested. A new player comes in, mines up some asteroids, and thinks, "Wow. That was boring. Is this all there is?" and they feel like it's a boring sim game over a sandbox. The average gamer doesn't really have that long of a captivation span (the game keeps them entertain enough to keep them playing) and they want something exciting to happen within the first 2 hours or so of gameplay. Otherwise, they typically put the game away and never play it again.

And, before you say it, yes. I know there are other things to do besides mining asteroids. Yes, I know the game is not complete. Yes, I know Schine may not be trying to appeal to the average gamer. However, as the OP said, those pleasure response moments in Minecraft keep people playing. Finding diamonds, mob spawners, getting that perfectly enchanted weapon/item by shear luck while using the enchanting table, stumbling into an abandoned mine shaft, discovering water temples, etc. etc...those are all things that give that pleasure response and keep people playing. Unfortunately, Starmade, as it stands, have very little to offer in that regard.

With that in mind, I would suggest the following when mining:

While mining an asteroid, as a rare chance, you stumble upon a pirate cache, which yields a random assortment of capsules, ingots, system blocks, etc. etc.
OR
The core of the asteroid has a chance to be made up of the two resources the asteroid has, making for a HUGE deposit and mining yield.
OR
Asteroids have a chance of holding an extremely rare and highly valuable resource that, while un-usable, can be sold to trade stations for a large sum of credits. However, the credits the player receives are NOT from the station's coffers, but generated separately and awarded.
OR
Any combination of the three listed above can be implemented to give an even wider array of excitable moments.

 

[Plisko]

I dont quite understand what he's saying either. You already said you made a miner that can eat asteroids in 5 seconds, that's where the fun of mining begins and ends, unfortunately. It definitely needs to be more enjoyable.

I was actually wondering about these features serving as a down side to creating a huge mining ship. With smaller ships there could be a better chance to find surprises or bonuses in asteroids where a large ship will just destroy it all like a bulldozer at an archeological site. That way there is a deliberate trade off between adventure mining that takes more time but has mysteries and bonus possibilities wheras strip mining is faster and just counting on pure ore collection to make up for the lost opportunities.

 

[DevajC]

I was actually wondering about these features serving as a down side to creating a huge mining ship. With smaller ships there could be a better chance to find surprises or bonuses in asteroids where a large ship will just destroy it all like a bulldozer at an archeological site. That way there is a deliberate trade off between adventure mining that takes more time but has mysteries and bonus possibilities wheras strip mining is faster and just counting on pure ore collection to make up for the lost opportunities.

That actually seems like a good idea! I guess someone could argue that it wouldn't add more content to the game regardless because you would have to purposely limit yourself to be able to access it but all games need to make sacrifices instead of making everything 100% available to anyone or that would be boring. And they could introduce special ores that can only be mined by big ships to balance.

 

[Zoli]

At the very beginning, players will mine with personal mining tools, then upgrade to ship mining, from there to fleet mining, with automated mining at the end, which ties in with the imperialist role.

Additionally, mining depends on region of the universe as well as knowledge and experience of the game. Later, possibly more resources will be added, including hard to get rare resources and other forms of acquisitions (gas mining, star mining, planet atmosphere “mining”, etc) to add variation.

It seems mining will be more varied in the future, but if the core mechanics won't be changed, it still won't be a lot more interesting.

If you can find a good way to do it, I'd like to see some rare "treasure" resources that can only be dug out very carefully by hand to prevent destroying them. These shouldn't be staple manufacturing items, but perhaps they could be used for personal equipment or ammunition-like expendable enhancements to ship systems or personal equipment.

I'd be fine if it gave some purely decorative and/or lucrative items.

Like hand mining crystals might let you get a really interesting looking crystal formation that you can use for decorating or sell off at a higher than normal price. So basically gemstones.

Careful hand mining as a new game mechanic seems to be on point, but hardly enough on its own.

Similar games often struggle with this issue. Even Minecraft didn't really provided a real solution throughout the years. Mining in games are still unrefined and an initially boring feature. And the root cause of this issue is simple, the lack of meaningful choices and personal challenges.

Most of the times it doesn't matter which way you dig. You easily locate the relatively big territory where the needed ore lies, and than you just dig in a random direction and wait, because the ore can be anywhere. You have a 3D game with a 1D game mechanic. Choosing between two blocks to mine next is like choosing between two identical eggs to find out which one is rotten.

In this case procedural generation should only serve as the generator of the initial state not the puzzle itself. Finding the ore itself should only be the smaller, less time consuming part of the mining process, because it can become boring quickly. The bigger part should be the extraction of the resource. This should encapsulate several different choices, like which tool to use to mine the ore, which ingredient of the ore block to extract, what ore-specific risks to take, etc.

In the end a player facing an asteroid or the surface of a planet should never feel like it doesn't matter at all which block to salvage first, because it's just the matter of time to reach the ore he or she is looking for. The surface should always provide traces to help the player locate all the ores it is hiding. Some of them may be more expensive to extract than other, some may be more dangerous, some may be more time consuming, some even untouchable with the current tools of the player, but there always should be choices. Because without them the mining aspect of this game makes it similar to a linear rail-shooter.

 

[Extholious]

(might have already been said because i just skipped to the bottom to put my two cents in)

add some abandoned asteroids mines and crashed ships (something somewhat how Space Engineers does it there's your normal asteroids and then every once in a while you find a abandoned station or ship) that have a very low chance of spawning that way it is truly something that is rare and interesting to explore and wouldn't become something that would eventually become annoying to find like a rare resource that you would have to spend a hour mining in order to get a substantial amount or just constantly finding stations and ships because it would run down the experience into something not as cool as it should be.

 

[Plisko]

In this case procedural generation should only serve as the generator of the initial state not the puzzle itself. Finding the ore itself should only be the smaller, less time consuming part of the mining process, because it can become boring quickly. The bigger part should be the extraction of the resource. This should encapsulate several different choices, like which tool to use to mine the ore, which ingredient of the ore block to extract, what ore-specific risks to take, etc.

This is an interesting idea. It would make a mining ship something that would need to be much more specialized than just a single big salvage array and a cargo hold. . . . and there would be a more intricate ruleset for tools, extraction and processing that miners and imperialists would need to get good at, just like the combat players must learn the intricacies of weapon rules. . . to take maximum advantage of it. Miners can't be great at ship to ship combat without learning systems and techniques and practicing. Maybe fighters also shouldn't just be able to throw together a big mining array and have instant success.

 

[jayman38]

I think it would be fun to see a bunch of NPC astronauts hand-mining an area. It would be like watching ants. That would be one fun way to improve mining for me.