It's impossible to make good figther weapons

[Drakkart]

By the time the gun is big enough to break even 1 block it's already too big to be a practical fighter weapon. Making fighters in this game is a joke.

the reason why the definition of a fighter @ DSY is something in the 300-500 mass range

 

[Malacodor]

Any such 'exploit' is entirely coincidental. I wanted a pirate that wasn't easily dealt with by the simple expedient of spamming swarmers. To that end, it needed a very good set of point defense turrets. If the AI is so stupid that such turrets make aiming at the fighter problematic, it is not my fault for building a fighter with good point defense, but the fault of the developers for making insanely stupid AI targeting.

And I thought you were clever enough to do that on purpose.
Exploiting AI weaknesses is a normal way of playing video games, it just sucks that it is that weak, so I completely agree with you.

 

[godmars]

unfortunately you can't take something like a x-wing and make it effective in SM. barring bugs speed is not really that much of an advantage against anything except for player aimed weapons. for the time being in this game if you want a really strong fighter you gotta basically build a big gun and then put engines on it

 

[Jojomo]

unfortunately you can't take something like a x-wing and make it effective in SM.

Effective against what? Another x-wing, or a star destroyer?

barring bugs speed is not really that much of an advantage against anything except for player aimed weapons.

I'm not speaking from personal experience here, so I could be wrong, but I've seen B&S tournament players say the opposite: that the AI is bad at leading targets for cannons, and that humans are better. So it seems that speed is an advantage, against both humans and AI.

 

[godmars]

Effective against what? Another x-wing, or a star destroyer?

both. a turret is better alternative

I'm not speaking from personal experience here, so I could be wrong, but I've seen B&S tournament players say the opposite: that the AI is bad at leading targets for cannons, and that humans are better.

yes, because of a bug. cannon fire doesn't adjust for speed past a certain point

 

[Jojomo]

both. a turret is better alternative

I don't think turrets and fighters are substitutes for each other. They're entirely different classes of products.
And I'd say an x wing can be effective against another xwing, and shouldn't be effective against a destroyer.

yes, because of a bug. cannon fire doesn't adjust for speed past a certain point

So speed is effective then...

 

[Blodge]

Speed may not be of much use in a one-on-one duel (AI "limitations" aside), but in a battle it allows you to choose which target you want to engage and when, while denying your enemy the same luxury. This kind of option can be invaluable to a small force needing to engage a larger one.

 

[Scypio]

So speed is effective then...

Ai can't aim past a certain point. Even if it's beam, the easiest weapon to shoot with. Speed isn't "effective" it's just that AI can't handle more than a certain speed and the only one way to shoot at something that fast with turrets is lock-on missiles or heatseeker.

 

[kulbolen]

what scypios trying really hard not to say... is speed is effective.

 

[AtraUnam]

back on topic, a mere 36 block cannon/punch is a fairly effective fighter weapon.

 

[godmars]

So speed is effective then...

what kind of bizzaro planet am I on when the only saving grace of an aspect is due to an unintended bug? Surely that won't come back to bite anyone in the ass..
The only reason things that small aren't instantly obliterated are due to that bug and radar jammers(and missiles will take care of that). Otherwise AI turrets would instantly obliterate them the second they flew into their kill zones.

Speed may not be of much use in a one-on-one duel (AI "limitations" aside), but in a battle it allows you to choose which target you want to engage and when, while denying your enemy the same luxury. This kind of option can be invaluable to a small force needing to engage a larger one.

that isn't going to help you at all with a fighter that small when you can make something 3x bigger still within the fighter range that is just as fast as you are, which is what i am talking about, hence

unfortunately you can't take something like a x-wing and make it effective in SM.

sure you can throw 100 and 100s of them at things and they will kill it by why waste the resources. just make a bigger fighter like raisinbat's Valkyrie or use a turret that a fighter probably wont even be able to even damage.

 

[Jojomo]

Ai can't aim past a certain point. Even if it's beam, the easiest weapon to shoot with. Speed isn't "effective" it's just that AI can't handle more than a certain speed and the only one way to shoot at something that fast with turrets is lock-on missiles or heatseeker.

You say tomato, I say tomato...

It may be an unintended side effect of a bug, but speed is effective.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

I don't think turrets and fighters are substitutes for each other. They're entirely different classes of products.
And I'd say an x wing can be effective against another xwing, and shouldn't be effective against a destroyer.




So speed is effective then...

The problem is that if an "x wing" is only effective against another "x wing" then it realistically isn't effective at all. You can hardly expect your enemy in a combat situation to waste resources solely to give some of your ships something to do.

That said, you can make "fighters" pretty effective in Starmade, you just have to keep in mind that Starmade is a game, with rules, and you're going to have to keep those rules in mind when you're designing things. For example you're going to be devoting more space to weapons then a real world (or majority of fictional) fighter would have. You're also going to have to keep in mind that you're likely to be relying on numbers. It's also worth keeping in mind that in Starmade terms you can make a ship that fits a fighters role bigger then its real world counterpart.

 

[Blodge]

that isn't going to help you at all with a fighter that small when you can make something 3x bigger still within the fighter range that is just as fast as you are, which is what i am talking about, hence

sure you can throw 100 and 100s of them at things and they will kill it by why waste the resources. just make a bigger fighter like raisinbat's Valkyrie or use a turret that a fighter probably wont even be able to even damage.

I disagree that using large numbers of small units to take down 1 bigger one is a waste of resource. It's usually far more economically viable to manufacture lots of cheap units than 1 big one. They can also be replaced much quicker. There's a reason why after WWII most Navies stopped producing huge battleships and started having larger numbers of relatively small Destroyers instead.

 

[Jojomo]

The problem is that if an "x wing" is only effective against another "x wing" then it realistically isn't effective at all. You can hardly expect your enemy in a combat situation to waste resources solely to give some of your ships something to do.

Do you think a single fighter should be effective against a battleship?

Single fighters should have no chance at all against a large ship.
Multiple fighters should - and they currently do (in fact they can typically defeat more than their own combined mass).

 

[Blodge]

I think people are talking at cross purposes. Of course Fighters are effective. The question is, in what circumstances?

You could argue a knife is no use against a gun. However, in a fight between 7 knife wielding maniacs vs 1 gunman with only 6 bullets, who's going to be left standing?

Besides, this is off topic! We're supposed to be talking about how to make the most efficient small weapons. Come ti think of it, that principal should be applied to all scales of weapon.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

If the AI is so stupid that such turrets make aiming at the fighter problematic, it is not my fault for building a fighter with good point defense, but the fault of the developers for making insanely stupid AI targeting.

So true...

I remember when the graphics looked like this...


...and AI targeting was some scary stuff. Now that the weapons purposely aim at system blocks rather than the core/center mass of a ship, it takes a lot longer to kill even a small fighter. They seriously need to give an option in the AI config to turn that crap off.

 

[Nickizzy]

I disagree that using large numbers of small units to take down 1 bigger one is a waste of resource. It's usually far more economically viable to manufacture lots of cheap units than 1 big one. They can also be replaced much quicker. There's a reason why after WWII most Navies stopped producing huge battleships and started having larger numbers of relatively small Destroyers instead.

And now are starting to make drones, which currently are all really small,

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I disagree that using large numbers of small units to take down 1 bigger one is a waste of resource. It's usually far more economically viable to manufacture lots of cheap units than 1 big one. They can also be replaced much quicker. There's a reason why after WWII most Navies stopped producing huge battleships and started having larger numbers of relatively small Destroyers instead.

This is why nearly all of my starship designs fit within the 100-120 meter length range and the 2 million power regen soft cap, while so many other players are building capitals.

It's insanely hard for a single heavily armed ship to stand up to wave after wave of faster, more maneuverable, well equipped ships without becoming overwhelmed. When better fleet commands become available I'll be updating my fighter designs to mess up people's swarm tactics while sending more ordnance their way..

 

[Jojomo]

I disagree that using large numbers of small units to take down 1 bigger one is a waste of resource. It's usually far more economically viable to manufacture lots of cheap units than 1 big one. They can also be replaced much quicker. There's a reason why after WWII most Navies stopped producing huge battleships and started having larger numbers of relatively small Destroyers instead.

A big reason for this was missiles: they can sink a large ship pretty much just as easily as they can sink a small ship, and unlike guns the most powerful missiles can be launched even from relatively small ships. So there just wasn't a lot of point using large ships anymore.