It is Time to Retire the Power Regen Cap (Read Before Commenting)

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    Somehow, I like the fact that we have to create true reactors in addition to the current circuitry we can do in ships.

    But that's just my opinion, I understand OP's concerns.
     
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    Mered4

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    What you are describing is already possible using the current adjustable options in the block behavior. There doesn't need to be any mechanic redesign thankfully.

    Instead of messing with power you may want to just adjust the thrusters instead.

    I do overall disagree with the idea however. Continuing to scale things up is not a good way to balance the game. There is a fundamental flaw in the way the game is balanced anyway. When your sturdiest block has 200 hp and you have weapons systems that do that much damage with only 10 blocks... Those numbers just will never work out.

    Everyone has their own preferences. What is underpowered to some will seem overpowered to others.

    If you have a way you want the game to function; open up the block behavior and make it happen and then share it with everyone =D
    You cannot please everyone, true.

    But you can fix a system based on outdated assumptions.[DOUBLEPOST=1417620969,1417620902][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Somehow, I like the fact that we have to create true reactors in addition to the current circuitry we can do in ships.

    But that's just my opinion, I understand OP's concerns.
    I like the idea too. It distinguishes those who truly understand how the game works from everyone else, methinks.

    Unfortunately the risk is just awful.
     

    Keptick

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    MrFURB
    The 1 mil cap is a ship-wide cap, not a per-reactor cap (it would be ridiculously OP if that were the case)
    So, the cap was per reactor group? Like, you could have multiple 1mil e/sec reactor groups on the same ship? WHAAAAAAAAAAT??? That would be amazing but so broken at the same time XD.

    Also, I agree with you that the soft cap should be increased. Not too sure that I like your suggestion removal of the box dimension bonus though. Power is the only system that requires design, which is nice.
     

    Mered4

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    So, the cap was per reactor group? Like, you could have multiple 1mil e/sec reactor groups on the same ship? WHAAAAAAAAAAT??? That would be amazing but so broken at the same time XD.

    Also, I agree with you that the soft cap should be increased. Not too sure that I like your suggestion removal of the box dimension bonus though. Power is the only system that requires design, which is nice.
    You have no idea how pissed the Imperium is that I *upgraded* my ships with them. Talk about heavy hitting - I had 50k mass warships that could deal almost 30mil damage in a single volley without nukes XD

    And then fire it again 20 seconds later. :D
     

    Keptick

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    You have no idea how pissed the Imperium is that I *upgraded* my ships with them. Talk about heavy hitting - I had 50k mass warships that could deal almost 30mil damage in a single volley without nukes XD

    And then fire it again 20 seconds later. :D
    When was that changed btw?
     

    jorgekorke

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    I can tell you havent started using power modules yet - you still think the power system is functional in it's current state. Try them out, then tell us what you think.
    What do you mean ? They have'nt been changed, it's the same system as it always been, as far as I know. At lease since 2013.
     
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    I agree the soft cap should be removed or increased. Even better if we could build reactors similar to those on real ship and plants ish. Where you have components and you must place blocks paired with other blocks to make it work. This would allow for balance and functionality. Plus having a reactor room would be cool, and having to know how to build a reactor would make the game more in depth.
     
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    [DOUBLEPOST=1417615385][/DOUBLEPOST]
    If you leave the end-game large-block energy production of power at 25e/s, we still have the same power reactor module problem. I can bypass all your artificial numbers with that system, all at the risk of breaking the server.
    I know and also would appreciate the servers not freaking out and the power beams left in the game. But i'd appreciate a softcap you can work against utilizing the big dimensions such a titan offers rather than favoring energy modules. - it should actually both stay viable but i'd prefer haveing the "clever" stacking power dimensions as viable option as well. Right now you basically are forced to utilize modules to be effective, i don't like that
     
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    I see absolutely nothing wrong with the current power system. It works the way it's supposed to.

    As to the supposed "benefits" of your proposed system...
    BENEFITS:
    - still gives smaller ships a necessary buff for power regen
    No argument there, but it already works just fine under the current system. You don't have to make your small ships long needles just to get good regen; you can give it some wings and extend the power regen out that way via box dimensions. Anyways, power requirements for small ships have never been much of an issue. Now that Capital ships fulfill their logical role properly, being both slower and more cumbersome, smaller ships now have a better speed and evasive advantage versus them.
    - still nerfs larger ships' ability to have superweapons (a gentler nerf)
    A gentler nerf for power regen on larger ships is anything but a benefit. Their capacity for destruction is already immense if you build a good ship. This is already easily supplemented with dockable generators.
    - eliminates the requirement of docked power generators in larger ships
    This is a rather ignorant statement here. Docked power generators were never "required" for large ships. It is easy to attain regen rates up to 4 million for a 350-meter battleship on just onboard power blocks alone, no docked batteries. Dockable reactors are a neat and fun ship engineering mechanic to have, and they allow for more fun ways to play the game. They allow smaller capital ships and gigantic mother ships to all compete more fairly, and their nature as a separate entity from the ship gives them a special vulnerability that plays into the whole mix quite interestingly as well.
    - fixes the problem of large ships not being able to power their own engines, let alone everything else
    I think the real problem here is that you are trying to relive the old thruster system on the new one, and naturally when you try to reach the same thruster potential for your ship as you were previously able to achieve, you are facing drawbacks. That's the way it's supposed to be. Titans don't move like frigates any more, and for good reason. Their slowness makes sense for their role, and it helps create a more diverse and fun play experience. Tired of your slow and cumbersome titan? Use a smaller ship. Fighters now actually mean something other than ships that are small-fry cannon fodder. Furthermore, with a combination of docked reactor batteries providing extra power in a smaller area of space, and a defensive push module effect, you can make your ship accelerate faster that way. Defensive push effect acts as a booster of sorts. It has some considerable power costs, but it's nonetheless a great system. Try it out.

    - removes mysticism and ambiguity that's surrounded power generator designs since x,y,z buffs were removed/nerfed (makes it easier for new players to power their ships)
    What? There is no mysticism or ambiguity about power generator design. What are you talking about? If anything, the current system now makes it easier for new players to power their ships than the old one did. The unique system that power generators work by is what makes them a great addition to the game. They work just fine as they are.

    You want to know how the design for power generators is supposed to work? Here, I'll tell you.
    You get power regen benefits for a single reactor group when each additional block to the group contributes to an expanding box dimension. It doesn't matter what direction it goes in, and you will recieve the same benefits no matter how long, wide or tall it is in other directions. On the old box dimension system, these benefits were ones where the new volume of the "box" multiplied your benefits. On the current one, it doesn't matter whether you make your box to be a tiny long string or a squiggly strand that encompasses the entire volume; as long as both that long string and squiggly strand both have the same amount of blocks in their reactor group, and each block in the group contributes to the benefits (eg. expands box dimensions in any way), they both give the same regen.


    In summary, the power system as it stands now works perfectly. The docked reactor mechanic solves the power crisis for larger ships. We don't need to be upping the regen softcap for power, because that simply means capital ships can get way more power to their guns than they can now, which means more powerful weapon potential, which means shorter and more one-sided ship battles. We don't need that. The system you're proposing simply gives people more incentive to be lazy shipbuilders that don't have to care as much about putting effort and good thinking into their ship designs.

    And if it was increased anyway, you'd then have more people coming to complain about shields being too weak, no longer holding their own against titan weapons; people complaining about thrusters being OP on titans, etc. Titans are already ridiculously OP in the game as they are, in how they've always traditionally allowed people to be one-man armies. Instead of that, we need to be encouraging people to work together as a team, in factions, flying ships together, instead of soloing everything with their own titan that's capable of obliterating everything in its path, without care or remorse.

    The softcap is an essential tool to combat this issue of giganticism and it has already settled into a proper place as it is already. In the past few months I have seen much more balanced Starmade combat than I ever have since this game first existed. I think we've finally reached a good balance in the area of power, and I think we need not tamper with it any further, especially not on such a fundamental level as what you're proposing. There's nothing wrong with the system.
     
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    Mered4

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    I see absolutely nothing wrong with the current power system. It works the way it's supposed to.

    As to the supposed "benefits" of your proposed system...

    No argument there, but it already works just fine under the current system. You don't have to make your small ships long needles just to get good regen; you can give it some wings and extend the power regen out that way via box dimensions. Anyways, power requirements for small ships have never been much of an issue. Now that Capital ships fulfill their logical role properly, being both slower and more cumbersome, smaller ships now have a better speed and evasive advantage versus them.

    A gentler nerf for power regen on larger ships is anything but a benefit. Their capacity for destruction is already immense if you build a good ship. This is already easily supplemented with dockable generators.

    This is a rather ignorant statement here. Docked power generators were never "required" for large ships. It is easy to attain regen rates up to 4 million for a 350-meter battleship on just onboard power blocks alone, no docked batteries. Dockable reactors are a neat and fun ship engineering mechanic to have, and they allow for more fun ways to play the game. They allow smaller capital ships and gigantic mother ships to all compete more fairly, and their nature as a separate entity from the ship gives them a special vulnerability that plays into the whole mix quite interestingly as well.

    I think the real problem here is that you are trying to relive the old thruster system on the new one, and naturally when you try to reach the same thruster potential for your ship as you were previously able to achieve, you are facing drawbacks. That's the way it's supposed to be. Titans don't move like frigates any more, and for good reason. Their slowness makes sense for their role, and it helps create a more diverse and fun play experience. Tired of your slow and cumbersome titan? Use a smaller ship. Fighters now actually mean something other than ships that are small-fry cannon fodder. Furthermore, with a combination of docked reactor batteries providing extra power in a smaller area of space, and a defensive push module effect, you can make your ship accelerate faster that way. Defensive push effect acts as a booster of sorts. It has some considerable power costs, but it's nonetheless a great system. Try it out.

    What? There is no mysticism or ambiguity about power generator design. What are you talking about? If anything, the current system now makes it easier for new players to power their ships than the old one did. The unique system that power generators work by is what makes them a great addition to the game. They work just fine as they are.

    You want to know how the design for power generators is supposed to work? Here, I'll tell you.
    You get power regen benefits for a single reactor group when each additional block to the group contributes to an expanding box dimension. It doesn't matter what direction it goes in, and you will recieve the same benefits no matter how long, wide or tall it is in other directions. On the old box dimension system, these benefits were ones where the new volume of the "box" multiplied your benefits. On the current one, it doesn't matter whether you make your box to be a tiny long string or a squiggly strand that encompasses the entire volume; as long as both that long string and squiggly strand both have the same amount of blocks in their reactor group, and each block in the group contributes to the benefits (eg. expands box dimensions in any way), they both give the same regen.


    In summary, the power system as it stands now works perfectly. The docked reactor mechanic solves the power crisis for larger ships. We don't need to be upping the regen softcap for power, because that simply means capital ships can get way more power to their guns than they can now, which means power powerful weapon potential, which means shorter and more one-sided ship battles. We don't need that. The system you're proposing simply gives people more incentive to be lazy shipbuilders that don't have to care as much about putting effort and good thinking into their ship designs.

    And if it was increased anyway, you'd then have more people coming to complain about shields being too weak, no longer holding their own against titan weapons; people complaining about thrusters being OP on titans, etc. Titans are already ridiculously OP in the game as they are, in how they've always traditionally allowed people to be one-man armies. Instead of that, we need to be encouraging people to work together as a team, in factions, flying ships together, instead of soloing everything with their own titan that's capable of obliterating everything in its path, without care or remorse.

    The softcap is an essential tool to combat this issue of giganticism and it has already settled into a proper place as it is already. In the past few months I have seen much more balanced Starmade combat than I ever have since this game first existed. I think we've finally reached a good balance in the area of power, and I think we need not tamper with it any further, especially not on such a fundamental level as what you're proposing. There's nothing wrong with the system.
    I don't think you realize how devastating to a server a ship with internal docking modules can be. It is anything BUT exciting and interesting and stuff. MFleet might even BAN their use if the problem gets any worse, tbh.
     
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    I see absolutely nothing wrong with the current power system. It works the way it's supposed to.

    As to the supposed "benefits" of your proposed system...

    No argument there, but it already works just fine under the current system. You don't have to make your small ships long needles just to get good regen; you can give it some wings and extend the power regen out that way via box dimensions. Anyways, power requirements for small ships have never been much of an issue. Now that Capital ships fulfill their logical role properly, being both slower and more cumbersome, smaller ships now have a better speed and evasive advantage versus them.

    A gentler nerf for power regen on larger ships is anything but a benefit. Their capacity for destruction is already immense if you build a good ship. This is already easily supplemented with dockable generators.

    This is a rather ignorant statement here. Docked power generators were never "required" for large ships. It is easy to attain regen rates up to 4 million for a 350-meter battleship on just onboard power blocks alone, no docked batteries. Dockable reactors are a neat and fun ship engineering mechanic to have, and they allow for more fun ways to play the game. They allow smaller capital ships and gigantic mother ships to all compete more fairly, and their nature as a separate entity from the ship gives them a special vulnerability that plays into the whole mix quite interestingly as well.

    I think the real problem here is that you are trying to relive the old thruster system on the new one, and naturally when you try to reach the same thruster potential for your ship as you were previously able to achieve, you are facing drawbacks. That's the way it's supposed to be. Titans don't move like frigates any more, and for good reason. Their slowness makes sense for their role, and it helps create a more diverse and fun play experience. Tired of your slow and cumbersome titan? Use a smaller ship. Fighters now actually mean something other than ships that are small-fry cannon fodder. Furthermore, with a combination of docked reactor batteries providing extra power in a smaller area of space, and a defensive push module effect, you can make your ship accelerate faster that way. Defensive push effect acts as a booster of sorts. It has some considerable power costs, but it's nonetheless a great system. Try it out.

    What? There is no mysticism or ambiguity about power generator design. What are you talking about? If anything, the current system now makes it easier for new players to power their ships than the old one did. The unique system that power generators work by is what makes them a great addition to the game. They work just fine as they are.

    You want to know how the design for power generators is supposed to work? Here, I'll tell you.
    You get power regen benefits for a single reactor group when each additional block to the group contributes to an expanding box dimension. It doesn't matter what direction it goes in, and you will recieve the same benefits no matter how long, wide or tall it is in other directions. On the old box dimension system, these benefits were ones where the new volume of the "box" multiplied your benefits. On the current one, it doesn't matter whether you make your box to be a tiny long string or a squiggly strand that encompasses the entire volume; as long as both that long string and squiggly strand both have the same amount of blocks in their reactor group, and each block in the group contributes to the benefits (eg. expands box dimensions in any way), they both give the same regen.


    In summary, the power system as it stands now works perfectly. The docked reactor mechanic solves the power crisis for larger ships. We don't need to be upping the regen softcap for power, because that simply means capital ships can get way more power to their guns than they can now, which means power powerful weapon potential, which means shorter and more one-sided ship battles. We don't need that. The system you're proposing simply gives people more incentive to be lazy shipbuilders that don't have to care as much about putting effort and good thinking into their ship designs.

    And if it was increased anyway, you'd then have more people coming to complain about shields being too weak, no longer holding their own against titan weapons; people complaining about thrusters being OP on titans, etc. Titans are already ridiculously OP in the game as they are, in how they've always traditionally allowed people to be one-man armies. Instead of that, we need to be encouraging people to work together as a team, in factions, flying ships together, instead of soloing everything with their own titan that's capable of obliterating everything in its path, without care or remorse.

    The softcap is an essential tool to combat this issue of giganticism and it has already settled into a proper place as it is already. In the past few months I have seen much more balanced Starmade combat than I ever have since this game first existed. I think we've finally reached a good balance in the area of power, and I think we need not tamper with it any further, especially not on such a fundamental level as what you're proposing. There's nothing wrong with the system.
     
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    so are you trying to be stupid or...

    because if you're trying, then that means you may actually have the intelligence to realize everything wrong with what you just did.
    Altho pretending to be stupid is something I commonly do so people the likes of yourself can better understand me. I think quoting you and using your own post as mine better shows how 'everything wrong with what you just did.' I posted a 'meme' to show my frustration to what Planr said. Much of wait he stated has been/or will discussed and argued (maybe 10 times). I could give my opinion which is exactly what is said in the OP and then create the same back and forth you see in every thread on this forum. Seeing that you just cant hit 'disagree' anymore, i'd figure that I would post a picture that some might find funny. Was it needed? nah. So why did I post it? Felt like it.

    Whats really interesting is you adding onto my 'nice meme' with the good old and very meme-y 'nice meme' link. Assuming that you were trying to have a go at me for just posting a single meme by using single meme. Profound indeed. You have bested me with exactly the same level of posting that I used. Congrats.

    Edit: Totally meant Planr not incap, I have no idea how I got that mixed. My apologies.

    Double Edit: since I refuse to continue this off topic-ness in more conversation. Yes this post is cold. I intend that this post be the last of this subject manner cause we all know that no matter how well you explain yourself (and if you do explain yourself quite well, you're a try hard) or bring actual valid points or who is actually bringing conversation, someone will think they will win a pointless flame war by talking the most. Case in point the person below this post.
     
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    ResonKinetic

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    Altho pretending to be stupid is something I commonly do so people the likes of yourself can better understand me. I think quoting you and using your own post as mine better shows how 'everything wrong with what you just did.' I posted a 'meme' to show my frustration to what incap said. Much of wait he stated has been/or will discussed and argued (maybe 10 times). I could give my opinion which is exactly what is said in the OP and then create the same back and forth you see in every thread on this forum. Seeing that you just cant hit 'disagree' anymore, i'd figure that I would post a picture that some might find funny. Was it needed? nah. So why did I post it? Felt like it.

    Whats really interesting is you adding onto my 'nice meme' with the good old and very meme-y 'nice meme' link. Assuming that you were trying to have a go at me for just posting a single meme by using single meme. Profound indeed. You have bested me with exactly the same level of posting that I used. Congrats.
    lol that's a very warped interpretation of what happened you try-hard.

    you posted a stupid meme instead of replying with civility and actually discussing the matter.

    my initial response called you out on both regards.
     

    Mered4

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    lol that's a very warped interpretation of what happened you try-hard.

    you posted a stupid meme instead of replying with civility and actually discussing the matter.

    my initial response called you out on both regards.
    You need to:

    1. Calm Down
    2. Google "How to Internet"
    3. Turn off the electronic device and rethink why you are posting on the forum.

    It isn't a scientific journal. This man posted a meme that was quite well deserved imho.
    Altho pretending to be stupid is something I commonly do so people the likes of yourself can better understand me. I think quoting you and using your own post as mine better shows how 'everything wrong with what you just did.' I posted a 'meme' to show my frustration to what incap said. Much of wait he stated has been/or will discussed and argued (maybe 10 times). I could give my opinion which is exactly what is said in the OP and then create the same back and forth you see in every thread on this forum. Seeing that you just cant hit 'disagree' anymore, i'd figure that I would post a picture that some might find funny. Was it needed? nah. So why did I post it? Felt like it.

    Whats really interesting is you adding onto my 'nice meme' with the good old and very meme-y 'nice meme' link. Assuming that you were trying to have a go at me for just posting a single meme by using single meme. Profound indeed. You have bested me with exactly the same level of posting that I used. Congrats.
    Bro, that's ice cold. Maybe next time you could leave the guy alone? Escalation leads to nuclear war, and fast.
     
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    This is already easily supplemented with dockable generators.
    Did you read anything of what I wrote?
    Anything at all?

    It is easy to attain regen rates up to 4 million for a 350-meter battleship on just onboard power blocks alone
    Yes, now lets say you want to power your ship's thrusters with "onboard power blocks alone".
    Approximate mass of 350m ship: 150,000
    Thrust needed to reach top speed on most servers: 150,000
    Thrusters needed to attain 150,000 thrust: about 162,000
    Power needed for 162,000 thrusters: 162,000*(27e/sec/block)=4.37 mil

    Now do you see why docked power generators are necessary for even modestly large ships?
    Standard power alone can hardly power 1:1 thrust, let alone shields, power regen, weapons, overdrive/ion/other passive effects, scanners, and jump drives.
    Also I'm not sure where you got this notion that larger ships should be slower than smaller ones; this is outer space, not the ocean. (Big ships should accelerate slower, which they already have to. And they should also turn slower, which they already do)

    The system you're proposing simply gives people more incentive to be lazy shipbuilders that don't have to care as much about putting effort and good thinking into their ship designs.
    hahahah you honestly think that using shaped generators takes even the remotest amount of effort or skill? I was doing that on the first day of playing this game, and I've pretty much never seen a "doom cube" that didn't use box dimension generators.

    But go ahead with trying to lecture me about "good ship design" because you're clearly so much better a builder than I.
     
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    Did you read anything of what I wrote?
    Anything at all?
    Yes, and I think it's very flawed.

    Yes, now lets say you want to power your ship's thrusters with "onboard power blocks alone".
    Approximate mass of 350m ship: 150,000
    Thrust needed to reach top speed on most servers: 150,000
    Thrusters needed to attain 150,000 thrust: about 162,000
    Power needed for 162,000 thrusters: 162,000*(27e/sec/block)=4.37 mil
    Well then you just don't put that many thrusters on your ship then! The thrusters or the power requirements aren't the problem here, it's that your perspective of how they should be is extremely unrealistic. They are acting exactly as they're supposed to. Not being able to reach those high speeds is the penalty that such large ships should naturally face. And, you can still just use a jump drive.
    Your titan isn't supposed to move like a freaking racecar.

    Now do you see why docked power generators are necessary for even modestly large ships?
    Standard power alone can hardly power 1:1 thrust, let alone shields, power regen, weapons, overdrive/ion/other passive effects, scanners, and jump drives.
    They're not a necessity at all; on the contrary you are trying to get them to perform a ridiculously unrealistic task for such a massive ship. 1:1 thrust is a ridiculous thing to expect from such a massive vessel. It will and should naturally move slower than smaller vessels, that helps distinguish it and balance out the ridiculous amounts of firepower such exponentially-larger vessels have than the smaller ships around them. The drain from weapons is exponential in terms of power, because that's the size limiter for them, as the weapons scale in damage linearly by block. Running full overdrive/ion/scanners and jump drives all at the same time kills power on ships of all sizes, so I don't see what you're getting at there.

    Also I'm not sure where you got this notion that larger ships should be slower than smaller ones; this is outer space, not the ocean. (Big ships should accelerate slower, which they already have to. And they should also turn slower, which they already do)
    Ships that massive have to have drawbacks. This is where the drawbacks ought to logically come from. They are just too OP otherwise. Yes, this is outer space, but it is also a voxel sandbox video game, and certain things are going to need to be different from real space physics to provide balanced gameplay. Titans should not and are not intended to move like fighters, nor frigates. Yes, they should also turn and accelerate slower. Also it's totally cool how you completely dismissed my recommendation of using push modules to help the acceleration.

    hahahah you honestly think that using shaped generators takes even the remotest amount of effort or skill?
    Well, it used to take a lot of skill to build box dimension reactors. There were certain combinations you could do to try and fit multiple reactor groups in a small space at very large box dimensions, and attempting to fit as much power into a small space in those circumstances was essentially like trying to solve a puzzle.

    But go ahead with trying to lecture me about "good ship design" because you're clearly so much better a builder than I.
    I'm not here to lecture you about ship design, clearly you understand it about as well as I do. It's your unrealistic expectations you have for those massive ships that I am pointing out.
     
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