It is Time to Retire the Power Regen Cap (Read Before Commenting)

[Proxima_Centauri]

The power regen cap has been around since before even I was playing this game (it's likely more than 2 years old at this point) and it did well to address the problems of the game at the time. However, the game has changed much since then and I think we are at the point where the system has more detriments than it has benefits (I'll explain below)

Why the power cap was put in place to Begin With:
The power cap at 1 mil regen solved two problems. The first was that large ships had longer dimensions, and thus benefited a lot more from the box dimension power reactor designs (which have since been retired) than a small ship with a comparable power block-to-mass ratio. The second was to nerf ultra super capital weapons somewhat by making them almost impossible to power. Both of these problems were effectively killed by the nerf.

Why the power cap is now obsolete:
The power cap was working well up until the various changes to thruster performance a few months ago. The power required per thruster block is about 27 e/sec (and has always been that way as far as I'm aware), however ships now require 3 to 4 times as many thruster blocks just to achieve the same amount of thrust as before. This isn't a bad system, in fact it has really grown on me; the problem is that now not only do you need a larger portion of your ship devoted to thrusters, you also need 3 to 4 times more power just to power your thrusters. For smaller ships this isn't a problem because thrusters have a ton more thrust per block for smaller amounts of thrust (see graph). This is a crippling debilitation on larger ships, as the number of blocks used just to move around just keeps ballooning larger and larger with diminishing returns.

Now you might be thinking "Why not just use docked power generators?". These do solve the aforementioned problem, but at a price. They have to be long sticks to be efficient, making them terribly unwieldy and only viable for certain ship shapes. They also need their own shields and thrusters just to stay alive during a fight. Their greatest drawback is that they are a server-crashing time bomb waiting to happen. If the dock holding an internal power generator comes loose during a fight, you can expect crippling lag and a server crash if an admin doesn't resolve the issue immediately.
More and more people are using docked generators now. They are a neat trick to use, but a large ship should not have to rely on them just to be viable, and the impending Steam release should be as stable a build as possible, which this could help with.

What Should Replace the Current System:
Obviously this will be a controversial one, but I think that power regen should be changed to a system similar to what thrusters have now. No lines, dimensional bonuses, or even grouping bonuses, and a negative exponential curve that approaches a "cap" of about 75 e/sec per block (see graph)

BENEFITS:
- still gives smaller ships a necessary buff for power regen
- still nerfs larger ships' ability to have superweapons (a gentler nerf)
- eliminates the requirement of docked power generators in larger ships
- fixes the problem of large ships not being able to power their own engines, let alone everything else
- removes mysticism and ambiguity that's surrounded power generator designs since x,y,z buffs were removed/nerfed (makes it easier for new players to power their ships)

CONS:
- ships would need to be refit
- ???

What do you think of this idea?
Criticism is welcome.

 

[Incap]

A lot of this seems to be about Thrusters.

I actually like my larger ships moving slower. Feels more realistic, but that's my own opinion. I'd like to remove the power cap, or at least raise it, because of the new power requirements for weapons.

 

[incorruptable]

The way I see it, Incap, is that the thrusters are a simple example that can be easily related between players more readily, since most people use thrusters to move rather than using the defensive effects of stop, push, and pull. I also did not know that the x,y,z buffs were removed or nerfed. There is a certain point where that no longer works, which is when a ship is generating one million e/sec. Any higher and voxeling in large reactor groupings are just as effective, more or less. It's annoying. It's bulky. It's wasteful when you've got the space saving x,y,z style that gives an amazing generation until you hit that dreaded one million cap. I'd suggest a removal of it, since even for a small, but still quite large ship (what qualifies as small and large, anyway?) that doesn't use many systems, anything over 1.2 million causes extreme drain on the ship, which kills the simple ability to move at all (as about 200-300 THOUSAND is just devoted to keeping the ship shielded) for long periods of time if certain conditions, not even firing weapons, but simply being shot while a couple excess, minor, systems are active. More or less: I'd love if the power cap was removed, but raising the cap or making it capable to be set/disabled on a server to server basis would be agreeable as well.

 

[Incap]

Some of the lighter TE capital ships have a max speed of 50 kmph and they have a fairly good FTL drive to compensate. The reason I like larger and slower ships is so I don't get a new member zooming in at the server speed limit and smashing into a station/fleet/planet/etc. The way TE ships generate power requires little space, minimal effort and can be done in a very simple manner.

But I'm talking about the gross power consumption on weapons. Then again, you could always just add more power capacitors. A raising of the cap would do just fine. Remove it, and you may see ships with something ridiculous like 10million e/s

 

[MossyStone48]

At the risk of going off topic I'd like to assert that this sort of discussion is simultaneously productive and moot. The final game will have so many options open to the server operator that one client will plug into one server and the user will experience something completely other from vanilla. Then connect to another server and undergo an overwhelming culture shock as a whole other set of circumstance occur. Which make it fundamentally a different game altogether. All with one client. No user side mods needed. But we have to have these discussions for future servers to have a ground work from which to base their alterations. Mod and settings packs will help but even then two servers running the same basic settings packs might deliver a different encounter entirely.

The reason for the cap is to combat gigantism which for a dedicated faction would still be possible to exploit. There are a handful of work arounds that require good design and a working knowledge of the game. Knowledge someone could not have without having spent the time to earn it. The snazzier designs even incorporate logic which is almost a necessity.

That said you might recall the capship option. As the search is buggered I can't just say 'go look for it' so here it be: http://starmadedock.net/threads/thrust-mechanics-explained.2696/

It then becomes a game of balancing efficiency. Well it is already. your first graph illustrates that flawlessly. But there's a shift when thrust is modified to work a certain way or rather 'differently'. And it's going to change. When it does there's likely going to be options on the server side to alter the game to the server community's needs. So a capless server might eventually become popular based on these numbers alone.

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

There are a handful of work arounds that require good design and a working knowledge of the game. Knowledge someone could not have without having spent the time to earn it. The snazzier designs even incorporate logic which is almost a necessity.

I have already addressed the problems with this approach in my post
Docked Power generators are cool and all, but if one gets undocked for any reason, you can say bye bye to the server you're on

Also I don't think having the option to change something in the config is a good excuse for leaving a broken mechanic (by default) in the game.

 

[MossyStone48]

It won't be broken, it won't be left in, the game is no where near final.

 

[MrFURB]

I'd just like to remind folks that the 'X-Y-Z' box dimensions are still in-game and working. They are intrinsically linked with the soft cap, as that cap is the point that the bonus regen from box dimensions reaches 1 million.

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

MrFURB
The 1 mil cap is a ship-wide cap, not a per-reactor cap (it would be ridiculously OP if that were the case)

 

[MrFURB]

MrFURB
The 1 mil cap is a ship-wide cap, not a per-reactor cap (it would be ridiculously OP if that were the case)

Wait a sec, it used to be a per reactor cap? I don't seem to recall that at all... But who am I to tell.

 

[Mariux]

MrFURB
The 1 mil cap is a ship-wide cap, not a per-reactor cap (it would be ridiculously OP if that were the case)

Never knew that used to be in the game (the per-reactor cap, of course). The more you know :p

 

[Lidren]

I was wondering about that, and if my server was bugged and not updating correctly. X Y Z buffs definitely still work.

 

[Drakkart]

Just setting up a SP universe with default values the power regen dimension buff is working and it comes to an halt at 1million afterwards every additional block just gives another 25e/s. Since you illustrated nicely how thrusters again perform a softcap on bigishness i kind of agree that two limiting systems seem to be too much. What i would like though is a mixture of the actual system and your cap system meaning please put the dimension buff for powerregen into place but have it work against another formula that will limes to 25e/s around 1.5 3 million regen/s
This way it would become a smoother curve and not this abprupt dimishing return when reaching 1million. smaller ships should be rewarded.
bigger Fighters/corvettes (around 300-500 mass) should be most effective energy regen wise. Frigates (~ 2k mass) still do good.
But Capital ships have to dimensionaly stack all their reactor systems using the same space mutliple times to fight the dimishing returns with the dimensional buff, instead of just putting big blocks of rector blocks somewhere.

 

[jorgekorke]

I'm fine with the current way power works.
I also understand the option of the devs to make servers very customized, but unfortunately that comes with the cost of the end of multi-server faction warfare.

 

[Mered4]

The power regen cap has been around since before even I was playing this game (it's likely more than 2 years old at this point) and it did well to address the problems of the game at the time. However, the game has changed much since then and I think we are at the point where the system has more detriments than it has benefits (I'll explain below)

Why the power cap was put in place to Begin With:
The power cap at 1 mil regen solved two problems. The first was that large ships had longer dimensions, and thus benefited a lot more from the box dimension power reactor designs (which have since been retired) than a small ship with a comparable power block-to-mass ratio. The second was to nerf ultra super capital weapons somewhat by making them almost impossible to power. Both of these problems were effectively killed by the nerf.

Why the power cap is now obsolete:
The power cap was working well up until the various changes to thruster performance a few months ago. The power required per thruster block is about 27 e/sec (and has always been that way as far as I'm aware), however ships now require 3 to 4 times as many thruster blocks just to achieve the same amount of thrust as before. This isn't a bad system, in fact it has really grown on me; the problem is that now not only do you need a larger portion of your ship devoted to thrusters, you also need 3 to 4 times more power just to power your thrusters. For smaller ships this isn't a problem because thrusters have a ton more thrust per block for smaller amounts of thrust (see graph). This is a crippling debilitation on larger ships, as the number of blocks used just to move around just keeps ballooning larger and larger with diminishing returns.

Now you might be thinking "Why not just use docked power generators?". These do solve the aforementioned problem, but at a price. They have to be long sticks to be efficient, making them terribly unwieldy and only viable for certain ship shapes. They also need their own shields and thrusters just to stay alive during a fight. Their greatest drawback is that they are a server-crashing time bomb waiting to happen. If the dock holding an internal power generator comes loose during a fight, you can expect crippling lag and a server crash if an admin doesn't resolve the issue immediately.
More and more people are using docked generators now. They are a neat trick to use, but a large ship should not have to rely on them just to be viable, and the impending Steam release should be as stable a build as possible, which this could help with.

What Should Replace the Current System:
Obviously this will be a controversial one, but I think that power regen should be changed to a system similar to what thrusters have now. No lines, dimensional bonuses, or even grouping bonuses, and a negative exponential curve that approaches a "cap" of about 75 e/sec per block (see graph)

BENEFITS:
- still gives smaller ships a necessary buff for power regen
- still nerfs larger ships' ability to have superweapons (a gentler nerf)
- eliminates the requirement of docked power generators in larger ships
- fixes the problem of large ships not being able to power their own engines, let alone everything else
- removes mysticism and ambiguity that's surrounded power generator designs since x,y,z buffs were removed/nerfed (makes it easier for new players to power their ships)

CONS:
- ships would need to be refit
- ???

What do you think of this idea?
Criticism is welcome.

You nailed it, pal. This is definitely a viable idea. I use those docked generators in every one of my new ships nowadays . :D

I actually have gotten some flak for it because some people don't like a 30k mass ship having the weapons of one twice her size

Regardless, we need a way to NOT encourage the use of power modules without nerfing power supply beams, and this is great.[DOUBLEPOST=1417615273,1417615162][/DOUBLEPOST]

I'm fine with the current way power works.
I also understand the option of the devs to make servers very customized, but unfortunately that comes with the cost of the end of multi-server faction warfare.

I can tell you havent started using power modules yet - you still think the power system is functional in it's current state. Try them out, then tell us what you think.[DOUBLEPOST=1417615385][/DOUBLEPOST]

Just setting up a SP universe with default values the power regen dimension buff is working and it comes to an halt at 1million afterwards every additional block just gives another 25e/s. Since you illustrated nicely how thrusters again perform a softcap on bigishness i kind of agree that two limiting systems seem to be too much. What i would like though is a mixture of the actual system and your cap system meaning please put the dimension buff for powerregen into place but have it work against another formula that will limes to 25e/s around 1.5 3 million regen/s
This way it would become a smoother curve and not this abprupt dimishing return when reaching 1million. smaller ships should be rewarded.
bigger Fighters/corvettes (around 300-500 mass) should be most effective energy regen wise. Frigates (~ 2k mass) still do good.
But Capital ships have to dimensionaly stack all their reactor systems using the same space mutliple times to fight the dimishing returns with the dimensional buff, instead of just putting big blocks of rector blocks somewhere.

If you leave the end-game large-block energy production of power at 25e/s, we still have the same power reactor module problem. I can bypass all your artificial numbers with that system, all at the risk of breaking the server.[DOUBLEPOST=1417615533][/DOUBLEPOST]

Some of the lighter TE capital ships have a max speed of 50 kmph and they have a fairly good FTL drive to compensate. The reason I like larger and slower ships is so I don't get a new member zooming in at the server speed limit and smashing into a station/fleet/planet/etc. The way TE ships generate power requires little space, minimal effort and can be done in a very simple manner.

But I'm talking about the gross power consumption on weapons. Then again, you could always just add more power capacitors. A raising of the cap would do just fine. Remove it, and you may see ships with something ridiculous like 10million e/s

Bro, we have ships that have 20mil e/s a second with power blocks reactors. I'm fairly certain this one guy has 50mil on his flagship.
People are going to push the extremes all the time. Let's not let that stop the improvements for the regular folks, eh?

 

[SchnellBier]

Since the only use i see for power transfer beams is the use in power modules... How about simply removing them? I know that this should be a support mechanic ingame but is it really used that way?

Another way counter the use of those mechanics is to simply stop logic to trigger power transfer computers. So this mechanic does work but needs a player in the docked power module.

I don´t like this changes myself but there have to be something that caps the size or the capabilitys of ships and every mechanic that can undo this isn´t a good idea overall.

Raising the softcap of power generation just results in even bigger ships with even more thrusters.

 

[Incap]

Bro, we have ships that have 20mil e/s a second with power blocks reactors. I'm fairly certain this one guy has 50mil on his flagship.
People are going to push the extremes all the time. Let's not let that stop the improvements for the regular folks, eh?

And how big and expensive are these ships? You need an obscene amount of reactors in order to achieve that.

 

[Mered4]

Since the only use i see for power transfer beams is the use in power modules... How about simply removing them? I know that this should be a support mechanic ingame but is it really used that way?

Another way counter the use of those mechanics is to simply stop logic to trigger power transfer computers. So this mechanic does work but needs a player in the docked power module.

I don´t like this changes myself but there have to be something that caps the size or the capabilitys of ships and every mechanic that can undo this isn´t a good idea overall.

Raising the softcap of power generation just results in even bigger ships with even more thrusters.

I have a logistical ship design I'm waiting to refit when they get the things working.

Personally, I'd love to have shields and hull buffed by at least ten times. That would bring logistics ships into the fold a bit, methinks.[DOUBLEPOST=1417618884,1417618720][/DOUBLEPOST]

And how big and expensive are these ships? You need an obscene amount of reactors in order to achieve that.

SuperTitans, ofc. 400k+ mass.

 

[timethatswasted]

The power regen cap has been around since before even I was playing this game (it's likely more than 2 years old at this point) and it did well to address the problems of the game at the time. However, the game has changed much since then and I think we are at the point where the system has more detriments than it has benefits (I'll explain below)

Why the power cap was put in place to Begin With:
The power cap at 1 mil regen solved two problems. The first was that large ships had longer dimensions, and thus benefited a lot more from the box dimension power reactor designs (which have since been retired) than a small ship with a comparable power block-to-mass ratio. The second was to nerf ultra super capital weapons somewhat by making them almost impossible to power. Both of these problems were effectively killed by the nerf.

Why the power cap is now obsolete:
The power cap was working well up until the various changes to thruster performance a few months ago. The power required per thruster block is about 27 e/sec (and has always been that way as far as I'm aware), however ships now require 3 to 4 times as many thruster blocks just to achieve the same amount of thrust as before. This isn't a bad system, in fact it has really grown on me; the problem is that now not only do you need a larger portion of your ship devoted to thrusters, you also need 3 to 4 times more power just to power your thrusters. For smaller ships this isn't a problem because thrusters have a ton more thrust per block for smaller amounts of thrust (see graph). This is a crippling debilitation on larger ships, as the number of blocks used just to move around just keeps ballooning larger and larger with diminishing returns.

Now you might be thinking "Why not just use docked power generators?". These do solve the aforementioned problem, but at a price. They have to be long sticks to be efficient, making them terribly unwieldy and only viable for certain ship shapes. They also need their own shields and thrusters just to stay alive during a fight. Their greatest drawback is that they are a server-crashing time bomb waiting to happen. If the dock holding an internal power generator comes loose during a fight, you can expect crippling lag and a server crash if an admin doesn't resolve the issue immediately.
More and more people are using docked generators now. They are a neat trick to use, but a large ship should not have to rely on them just to be viable, and the impending Steam release should be as stable a build as possible, which this could help with.

What Should Replace the Current System:
Obviously this will be a controversial one, but I think that power regen should be changed to a system similar to what thrusters have now. No lines, dimensional bonuses, or even grouping bonuses, and a negative exponential curve that approaches a "cap" of about 75 e/sec per block (see graph)

BENEFITS:
- still gives smaller ships a necessary buff for power regen
- still nerfs larger ships' ability to have superweapons (a gentler nerf)
- eliminates the requirement of docked power generators in larger ships
- fixes the problem of large ships not being able to power their own engines, let alone everything else
- removes mysticism and ambiguity that's surrounded power generator designs since x,y,z buffs were removed/nerfed (makes it easier for new players to power their ships)

CONS:
- ships would need to be refit
- ???

What do you think of this idea?
Criticism is welcome.

What you are describing is already possible using the current adjustable options in the block behavior. There doesn't need to be any mechanic redesign thankfully.

Instead of messing with power you may want to just adjust the thrusters instead.

I do overall disagree with the idea however. Continuing to scale things up is not a good way to balance the game. There is a fundamental flaw in the way the game is balanced anyway. When your sturdiest block has 200 hp and you have weapons systems that do that much damage with only 10 blocks... Those numbers just will never work out.

Everyone has their own preferences. What is underpowered to some will seem overpowered to others.

If you have a way you want the game to function; open up the block behavior and make it happen and then share it with everyone =D

 

[Andir]

the box dimension power reactor designs (which have since been retired

What? I still use box like structures for my energy production and it works just fine... Retired when?