Is armor too weak?

[godmars]

How do you guys think armor fares in game as a primary defense?
I just started messing around with the idea of creating an armor tank. With defensive effect it seems pretty tough until you fight something with heavy penetrating shots, but for a finite resource the armor bar seems to be consumed insanely fast.

Do you guys have any thoughts or advice on the usage of armor?

 

[aRottenKomquat]

I voted mediocre. I have not done much combat yet, but when taking on pirates it's easier to manage shields than armor. Shields recharge, while lost armor means tearing down and rebuilding the ship.

 

[KiloZulu]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of armor. I used to use it quite a bit before they change the mass values, but it was only ever a fashion choice. I believe that most weapons are designed to tear through armor and blocks, and the only thing that is going to save your ship from taking damage is shielding. All armor does is slow my ship down and take up space (due to the extra thrust needed to compensate.) If the enemy can overwhelm my shields and I don't have time to jump away, it's obviously doing enough damage that armor isn't going to be a factor.

I haven't played with docked armor to know if it really makes any difference, but it seems that most people think it is an exploit that will be fixed at some point, anyway.

 

[Genar]

I think thats an great idea. The armor should be more .... more heavy like real armor ^^. When fighting with bigger ships the most people just use hulls without any armor, because when they are hit by an missile theres no difference. It also would be cool if you could forge armor to make it even more heavy

 

[MrFURB]

Consider the following my humble opinion.

It is harder to get the maximum effectiveness out of armor, but when you do a ship will last a heck of a lot longer in a brawl than shield tanks.

There are more variables that go into designing effective armor. An armor block that isn't used in combat is only marginally more effective than dead weight. An armor block that is used becomes more effective than 15 shield capacitors. Good placement becomes key.

Just as with shield tanks, you need to scale up your armor defenses to match the scale of the weapons on the enemy you wish to outlast. A single layer of armor isn't going to do much to stop a cruiser's weaponry. A forward bulkhead of 15 meter thick advanced with pierce hardening will.

Sure, an enemy shipwright could create a metaweapon punch through your armor, but those tend to have extraordinarily tight damage patterns which lack killing potential since they will usually prick tiny holes straight through a ship, dealing tiny amounts of SHP damage.

I hate how much effort needed to manufacture and maintain good armor though.

 

[Bladeriker]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of armor. I used to use it quite a bit before they change the mass values, but it was only ever a fashion choice. I believe that most weapons are designed to tear through armor and blocks, and the only thing that is going to save your ship from taking damage is shielding. All armor does is slow my ship down and take up space (due to the extra thrust needed to compensate.) If the enemy can overwhelm my shields and I don't have time to jump away, it's obviously doing enough damage that armor isn't going to be a factor.

I haven't played with docked armor to know if it really makes any difference, but it seems that most people think it is an exploit that will be fixed at some point, anyway.

You make a good point, but leave out that weapons that shred Shields tend to have very little effect against armor. The opposite also applies.

For best use of protective items (Shields/Armor) one must plan on where they are going to be taking the most damage (Or at least where they foresee taking the most damage) and protect accordingly. There is also the meta of the server a person plays on that will help make these choices easier, as a server where Ion beam is dominating, then Advanced Armor will be sought after to counter, and vise a versa.

 

[KiloZulu]

I don't think that advanced armor should have any more mass than basic armor. Just as modern tanks have switched to using composite layered armors to achieve the same results as steel plates and reduce weight.

 

[kulbolen]

kz depends on the idea behind it. is advanced more modren than standard? cause we can make more defensive tank armor out of heaier stuff right now... but weight reduction is an important property in a tank because mobility/fuel efficiency/etc. the lighter armor ist better than heavier armor of the same era, its just better than heavier armor from previous eras.

that said, i think adv is too heavy for its stat weighting, but having some armor in general for ahp/critical component protection is very useful. you just dont see the benefits of armor in 90% of fights since most sm fights are 1 sided and you either have your armor obliterated by a gun 50x your size, or your shields never drop to give your armor a chance to perform because youre getting hit by a gun that cant hurt you.

 

[Edymnion]

A forward bulkhead of 15 meter thick advanced with pierce hardening will.

The main problem with armor tanking right now, IMO, isn't that it can't be made effective, but the weight of it.

To put it simply, the thruster balance right now is broken to the point most of your thrust is going into moving just your own thrusters. To have an amount of physical armor that will actually stand a chance against cruiser size weaponry, you need so gawdawful much of it that you can't move.

I mean, its one thing to say that armor tanks should be slow, but it really crosses the line into "unplayable" for me because the only way to actually do a dedicated armor tank is 90% armor and thrusters, with very little room left for anything else.

For me, shield tanking is the most viable way to go, with only enough armor (usually 2 layers of advanced at most) being more of a last ditch "Oh crap, shields just failed and the jump drive hasn't finished charging!" effort.

A few seconds more to get away as opposed to a primary defense.

Combine that with what a pain in the ass it is to fix armor damage, and its just not worth the effort for me. Shields regen on their own, nothing short of going home to a shipyard, deconstructing, and reconstructing your ship will fix the armor damage.

 

[Scypio]

The main problem with armor tanking right now, IMO, isn't that it can't be made effective, but the weight of it.

Note that in comparison to shields, armor need to be spaced to be well designed while shield, just throw more blocs. 15 layers of armor isn't a good way to go on your ship while 15 layers of shield regen/capacitors, it's okay. This result in armor tank being much more bigger than their counterpart in shields.

Also, the fact that the god weapon currently being cannon and missiles doesn't help armor tanks. Theses two weapons, by their base mechanics, are really good to shred armor while shields its the same as some other weapons.

 

[Edymnion]

Yup, like MrFURB said, armor that isn't actively stopping a shot is dead weight other than the armor hp. If your armor is even one block to the side, its pretty much worthless in actually stopping a shot. A shield cap anywhere on the ship provides protection to the entire ship.

I for one will take the 15 capacitors as gap filler anywhere on my ship to the 1 absolutely perfectly placed piece of armor every time.

 

[ZeroRa]

Armors intention is a last measure defense, to be used in combination with shields and point defense. Using any one single defense measure alone is detrimental to your defense.

There is a reason that all 3 systems exist, it because the developers intend you to use them all.

 

[kurosawa]

There is a reason that all 3 systems exist, it because the developers intend you to use them all.

Intend is the not the same and function.

Armor is to my mind pretty useless for cost in mass, production costs and effect.

True that advanced armor is fairly effective against missiles but every other weapons can pass true multiple spaced layers with ease.

 

[taisong]

Armor is a last measure to protect ships. It does protect well against lasers, but the cost and weight makes it a bit hard to use. I uploaded an armor tank, but she has some shielding too.

Armor has its pro and cons. Armor can be dealt with Cannon-cannon-punch, but is pretty much impervious against beams. Armor does not regenerate, but it can soak up quite a lot of damage. You cannot say that the armor is weak. It might not do excellently, but it does fine.

 

[Comradecolonel]

As someone who has spent a lot of time working with armor I can definitely say that it has a role. Not only does armor have much more health per block, it also has innate advantages. Having a barrage of missiles hit armor blocks and dead space is much better than hitting the squishy system blocks. Taking hits to system blocks causes systems to malfunction and lower the more important of your HP pools. I've destroyed shield boats with only one layer of hull before even half the armor hp of the target was gone. Armor can protect you in ways that shields can't.

I also have to disagree with the idea that armor that isn't between you and the enemy is useless. Unused armor blocks contribute armor HP, which makes all block 50% more resistant to damage. For missiles this 50% has a large impact on its blast radius. From my experience, with full piercing and full armor HP damage to the ship is severely reduced. Stacking armor HP by stacking hull as "padding" works well by increasing the armor HP without being too heavy. Obviously having advanced armor directly absorb a shot is more effect but the unused armor is not useless by any means. Also in real battles I've more commonly taken shots from all directions so I make sure I have armor all around regardless.

My main gripe is with standard armor. It is way less durable than advanced armor but more than half the weight. It functions pretty much like 3
hull blocks in one block. With the way that armor penetration and explosives work, it is better to have 3 blocks instead of one. I think it either needs a slight weight reduction or health increase. I still use it quite often though because I really like the seamless texture.

 

[Panpiper]

Of the top of my head, I'd like to see a server running a block config where standard armor weighs 0.1 mass and advanced armor weighs 0.15 mass as opposed to the current 0.15 and 0.25 respectively. At the same time, thrusters need a pretty substantial boost in terms of the thrust they produce and perhaps a reduction to their own mass as well. The formulas for turn rate also need tweaking to increase the turn rate of mid range ships between 10K and 100K mass.

Those changes would make armor tanking substantially less painful and more viable, without breaking balance.

 

[ZeroRa]

Intend is the not the same and function.

Armor is to my mind pretty useless for cost in mass, production costs and effect.

True that advanced armor is fairly effective against missiles but every other weapons can pass true multiple spaced layers with ease.

Pierce through yes, however it's structure hp damage is halved.

Armor's intent is to reduce damage to structure hp, which is what it does.

 

[Edymnion]

Unused armor blocks contribute armor HP, which makes all block 50% more resistant to damage.

Yes, but that can be obtained in any way you want. I get ridiculous amounts of armor HP just because I like to use standard armor as an interior decorating element.

When we say armor, we're usually referring specifically to hull plating to stop attacks with, aka the actual blocks that are being hit.

You can have a solid block of advanced armor at the core of your ship and all the systems on the outside, and no one is going to consider that ship an armor tank.

 

[AtraUnam]

Armor is almost certainly too weak, even dedicated armor tanks can have their armor pretty much completely ignored by anyone who decides to build their wepons to pierce them. It only really starts becomming effective at that point that its 50% of the mass of the ship.

 

[Jojomo]

I suppose you could judge it the way CounterStrike devs judge gun balancing: if you have a roughly even distribution of top players using gun X and it's direct substitutes it's good. If everyone's using it it's OP. If no-one's using it it needs a buff.

Armour is a great damage soak against missiles, but if only a small percentage of experienced players use it as a viable alternative to shields then perhaps it's not good enough.