Interested in a baby-sized server ?

    Would you be interested ? (multiple answers allowed)

    • Config changes really bother me, I think all servers should be vanilla

      Votes: 0 0.0%
    • If it's not vanilla, I won't play, period.

      Votes: 0 0.0%

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    Matt_Bradock

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    Olxinos I'd definitely give it a go, I love the idea of a low mass capped server, and already played on servers before that had a hard size cap - it keeps the challenge by killing the "Whose is bigger" game and forces people to focus on efficiency, creative building and systems and piloting skills. For the sake of viability, I think the 3K mass limit on ships cuts a little too low, and as a few people before me, I suggest a 5K instead (or 10K, but that's no longer baby-sized by some people's standards. The Blood and Steel tournament limit was 12K total mass per team, for the sake of keeping battles short and ships still maneuverable while not limiting design creativity). No BlockBehaviorConfig changes needed, creative enough builders already came up with viable efficient system and weapon setups for the 3k-5K size.
    I personally prefer the 10-12K range because that allows good stats AND detailed interiors simultaneously, and there won't be too many ships with the "One core room and one cargo bay" interior layout.
     

    alterintel

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    Olxinos The Blood and Steel tournament limit was 12K total mass per team, for the sake of keeping battles short and ships still maneuverable while not limiting design creativity.
    I think the Blood and Steal limit of 12K is perfect. This way people can perfect their blood and steal ship builds year round! This alone would help boost player numbers.
     
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    Olxinos

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    I'll try to sum up the reactions so far :
    1) Overall there seems to be enough interested people to open a server (even taking into account that people may just try it out for an hour and forget about it)
    2) People are more mitigated about trying config changes, a few players would like some specific changes, but a somewhat equal number express concerns about straying away from vanilla (excepted maybe some minor/performance related changes), and most don't say anything on the subject
    3) People sometimes mention a bigger cap than 3k mass
    4) Jontyfreack is absolutely hyped by this idea and has already planned to scrap the titan he's been working on for months

    Because of 1) I'll probably try to open such a server soon. I don't really know when I'll do it since I'll certainly be a bit busy this week-end (there'll be the new mtg set prereleases and I like to attend those) but I'll try to do it by next week's end. As I'm relatively new to server hosting there might however be a couple issues, but it should be playable.

    I'm a bit annoyed by 2) as I would have loved experimenting stuff, but this is understandable. So I'll avoid big balance changes and will probably simply change sector sizes a bit (probably adjust weapon ranges to mimic a 1~2km sector size though) and/or buffing warpgates, that kind of things.
    I'd however like to try at least one big balance change (unless too many players are adamant about not changing that) : buff power capacity. By that I mean multiplying the power capacity granted by capacitors by 10 to 20. This might sound a lot, but I think this would help solve the following problems:
    - Slow-firing-big-guns currently are far less mass-efficient than fast-firing cannons because of the sheer amount of capacitors needed to fire them. While they usually have the advantage of potentially disabling a ship immediately, they won't be as much interesting in a world where everyone might be nimble enough to make "alpha strikes" too risky strategies.
    - Set aside missile-beam which benefit greatly from increased server sector sizes due to their homing behaviour (advantadge mitigated by my intention of mimicking 1~2km sector sizes when it comes to weapon ranges), slow-firing-big-guns aren't used that much.
    - Power capacitors currently add very little depth to ship building. Usually, when designing a ship's power systems, players add the bare minimum of capacitors needed to fire their biggest weapon and that's all. I feel it'd be more interesting if players would be allowed to build ships with potentially greater consumption per second than their recharge rate but with enough capacity to sustain those expenses during a couple dozens seconds. As a rule of thumb, assuming capacity is multiplied by 10, replacing all your reactor blocks by capacitor blocks would give you enough capacity for about one minute worth of energy (obviously this varies depending on how efficient the original reactors were, this is a mere approximation for most "decent reactor layouts" in this size range).
    This is however a questionable change, so -as I previously said- if too many people are against it, capacitors will stay the way they currently are (if I were to open the server so fast that people don't have the time to express their opinion about it -one can dream- I'll keep the vanilla values, it wouldn't be fair to force it)
    Set aside that, maybe I could increase warhead damage a bit (so that a single warhead block can destroy an adv. armor block at least) to please the few torpedo afficionados out there :p (I think it's a much more minor change, but I won't do it either if too many people are against it)

    Concerning point 3) and the mass cap, like AtraUnam, I don't want the cap to grow too much. I think that one of the major advantages of such a server would be to allow for small building times of "PvP-capable" ships (meaning you could get up and running quite fast while using your very own design, or repeatedly rebuilding better ships from scratch without having to spend months on building alone).
    I understand that bigger ships would allow for a bigger margin of error which could be used to better decorate them, and that 5k~20k mass is a nice sweetspot for efficient, reasonably fast, and not extremely long to build ships. However, I feel like there's a greater power gap between 3k mass and 5k+ mass ships than between 1k mass and 3k mass ships. I mean that while you could expect standing your ground with a 1k mass ship in a world where the biggest fishes in the pond are 3k mass, this would probably require 3k~4k (or greater) mass ships if the big fishes were 5k mass. Therefore, an increase in mass cap would certainly also require a considerably greater time investment, and while I'm sure some players can afford it, others might not have the time, motivation, or skill to build those bigger ships. For instance, newer and/or less experienced players might struggle with a both slightly undersized and badly built first ship then would later hesitate to scrap for a potentially better ship as building takes time
    I deem the 12k cap of the BnS tournament too high for that reason: it isn't rare to see players invest weeks in building a single ship for that tournament whereas I'd like ship building on that server to be faster than that without having to compromise too much on quality.
    That said, I guess the cap could grow a little depending on how players fare and on how big the smallest useful ship is. For instance, if a difference in ship roles gives an edge to a 1k mass ship and evens the odds against a 5k mass one (an efficient/usable one I mean), then the cap might be raised to 5k mass (same for bigger mass caps).
    Still, I'd rather start small and raise the cap if needed than the opposite.
     
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    As you, Olxinos , ask for some attitudes about how to set such thing up:

    Size
    First of all I think the maximum of 3k mass is perfect. Reasoning the same as you allready stated: 5k mass ships have no fear of 1k mass ships, and the lower the lower size of ships, the less time is needed to manufacture them.

    Warheads
    The warhead damage can be greatly buffed. Each warhead takes up 7 blocks warhead (one warhead+docker+regen+thruster+core+ai module+pos.2nd warhead or fac.module) and 14 blocks containment+rails to store. So if I use a one time weapon, that uses up 30 blocks of space or more, to penetrate one block of advanced armor once, I would be an idiot. Because with 30 system blocks I can achieve this with some system blocks too, but don't be it a one timer. I say if a warhead destroys 10blocks of advanced armour, or 30 blocks of basic hull in one shot, it is a thing to think about. The downside still is: Oneshoot bullet, and risky to use as they can easily shoot down by 3k mass ships with their high turn rates, and risky to implement into a ship, as they are often enough don't do what they should. :D As this is an experimental server I would argue, that if you like people to experiment, give them actually a good reason to do so.

    Sector Size
    Vanilla sector size. Smaller ships are very hard to hit from far away, and a smaller sector size makes people meet more often. The downside is, that we have the sector changes where ships get repositioned. But I would say the reasons that are not about SM-bugs should be considered more heavily than SM flaws in coding. In the end the gap from sector changes doesn't change a fight into something annoying, but being unable to hit a 3k vessel from 15km away when the sector size is 10km makes it actually really annoying to play.
    edit, because someone brought up the idea: If we can make the range of weapons smaller then its totally fine to increase the sector size. It just should never be a frustrating thing to hit targets that are allready very small with the 3k mass limit.

    Mining/HB protection
    Vanilla HB protection and small mining bonuses for claimed systems. Keep in mind, that mining vessels can only be 3k mass too then. So designing a miner so that it is actually a challenge to attack him is actually worth a try. I would be sad, if we took away the survival aspect of the game here. Small mining bonuses also greatly encourage trading between players instead of between npcs.

    Multiplayer bugs
    So Starmade has many bugs. I highly recommend you ask some other server owners, like the guy on Genxnova. For instance missiles lag your server atm. under certain conditions. Display modules can cause chunk errors and random undocking...For this you need many mods that actually clean up your server often (On genx the admin has to clean or restore sectors daily, and manual restarts are needed like every 2 hours besides the regular ones every 4 hourse...).

    About chaning system configs (longer topic)

    Power Capacitors -> apply this to the other systems like missiles aso. too
    This change will do the following: it attracts a group of people with a certain taste. How much will be interested into building such special ships they can ONLY use on your server? Like 50%? Ok this number is allready an way too high number. Now look at how many people are there, who are interested in small scale combat. Go on a normal SM server for and ask: hey does someone want to fight me in a 5k mass or less fighter? I tried that several times and the majority said: No I don't build ships in that size. And I speak of very populated servers: Brierie, Genxnova, Systemhack. Now we take this very small number of players that are interested into 3k mass pvp and divide it in half again? I highly recommend you don't do that.

    It's not just about my taste, and that I don't like to design ships for a one time use, it's also about the sheer fact, that there will be even less players on that server and you need at least 4 guys constantly to make me join a server mate. =) I know your idea behind it: It might encourage people to join the server. Yes some might be encouraged to play exactly because of different systems on your server.

    But a way higher number will not play on your server with altered system configs. The people who like to experiment with altered systems and are open for that stuff, will join your server anyway no matter if you do other power capacitors. But the people who want vanilla systems will not join if you do that change.

    Changing the capacitor anyway
    If you do a change to the capacitors, you force people to make a special system setup of your server anyway. Then you should do all the changes you have in mind anyway: Radius of the pulse, and so on. But I again highly recommend you don't do that, because you loose numbers of interested players by doing so, but if you stick to vanilla, you don't loose players, as the guys who like to experiment with small sized vessels will join anyway but the vanilla guys will only join to unchanged systems. Changing even one weapon system forces people to completly refit ships as suddenly some weapons are greatly buffed and others are suddenly very inferiour. I wouldn't play on a server, where I allready know, that stuff is unbalanced.


    Static server rules that are easy to understand for the masses, versus a "nu-meta"-laboratory
    If you plan on changing a weapon system, I highly recommend you think carefully about it. It is absolutely unacceptable for a server audience to play on some field testing server. There is a difference between making a experimental different meta server, or giving people the feeling that you experiment for your own pleasure instead of letting the others have the same fun with that as you have (maybe let them all vote on system changes and have a persistent "nu-meta" concept around it that changes monthly).

    Any system change you make has to stay at least one month. So people don't get the feeling of being some laboratory rats. Even a 3k ship takes me a considerable time to put in systems. I don't like to do that on a weekly basis, and I highly recommend your think about that experimental concept again.

    A static change to some game rules like 3k limit is nothing that changes over the existence of the server. But the capacitor and other weapon system changes will change over time as they are hard to balance and will make you need to retweak them after 2 weeks of testing (if even enough people join such not-vanilla system server).

    Closing words
    I don't want to be a know it all. I like your server concept of 3k mass and I would be sad if you would have a hard time with it. Do what you think is best for your server to get as much players as possible (it starts and ends with the player count).
     
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    JinM raises a bunch of interesting points. He's right about experimental stuff. If it's a ship that you'll never use anywhere because the configs have been so thoroughly screwed that it won't work anywhere else, people are likely not really going to come to play, they're going to come because it's easier and more fun than changing their own configs. They'll experiment, and possibly leave.

    If, however, you only change the already-experimental aspects of gameplay, THEN you might see regular players and experimenters returning consistently, as it's a minimum of time invested for "rewards" of combat.

    Heck, I'd play if it was limited to extremely small sizes of ships, because that's usually what I build and have plenty of.
     
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    Reasoning the same as you allready stated: 5k mass ships have no fear of 1k mass ships, and the lower the lower size of ships, the less time is needed to manufacture them.
    engineering and build/manufacture time are good reasons to stick to 3k. the biggest argument i can see for bumping it up is because 5k and 10k give a lot more creative freedom for weapon configs and such and can better provide options to feel like youre flying a "frigate" or some such sub-capital, giving more ship class options. the 5k vs 1k thing doesnt make sense; at 3k you can make the same argument vs a 500 mass. you dont need to try to balance everyone into the same ship size, just make the limits small enough that anyone playing in a group can be useful. a 5k ship may feel unthreatened by a lone 1k ship (big maybe as anyone with game knowledge can build a 1k thatll chew a 5k up if ignored) but that same 5k will be VERY threatened by 2 or 3 1k ships.

    Sector Size
    Vanilla sector size.
    vanilla sector size is unacceptable for combat.

    If it's a ship that you'll never use anywhere because the configs have been so thoroughly screwed that it won't work anywhere else, people are likely not really going to come to play
    qft.

    Slow-firing-big-guns currently are far less mass-efficient than fast-firing cannons because of the sheer amount of capacitors needed to fire them. While they usually have the advantage of potentially disabling a ship immediately, they won't be as much interesting in a world where everyone might be nimble enough to make "alpha strikes" too risky strategies.
    this is by design. if alpha guns were as mass efficient than dps guns, theyd be very overpowered. as is theyre already very strong wen built to hit reliably, and most high good ships combine dps with alpha.


    just my opinions. if the caps 3k ill still play there, it still sounds fun. if the configs are modestly changed, ill still play there. but if the sector size is default, thats a nogo, and if the config changes are so drastic that they need "tweaking" often, that is too.
     
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    I don't even remember the default sector size lol.

    I set mine to 20km and never touched it since
     

    EMC007

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    This would be really cool for a lot of reasons. But I would prefer if the configs were not changed, simply so I can use ships I've built elsewhere and also use the ships on this server on my own.

    This would really encourage fleet battles, for one thing, which I think can be even more fun than just 2 big ships slugging out it.

    Also, mining would get far less tedious because you wouldn't require anywhere near as many resources as you would on other servers.

    I don't think sector sizes should stay vanilla, they should definitely be increased, but not too much (I have mine set to 20k as well, and it takes forever to navigate the universe unless you have a chain drive or a ridiculously high server max speed)

    While I do like the idea of having a mass cap of 10k, someone could still build a pretty damn big ship, if they were to use something like basic armor for all of its hull, and then the stations won't be multitudes bigger than the ships. I'd say 5 to 7k'd be good.

    Just my 2 cents, I'll play here no matter what, cause this sounds really cool.
     
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    I don't think sector sizes should stay vanilla, they should definitely be increased, but not too much (I have mine set to 20k as well, and it takes forever to navigate the universe unless you have a chain drive or a ridiculously high server max speed)
    unfortunately high server speed is just as cancerous to stable combat as low sector size, so the compromise is sectors actually feel large (which i personally like) and use jumps to travel beyond local range
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    Alrighty, you guys raise some good points, so I'd like to add my 2 cents as well, listing some pros and cons for all the proposed settings, with some questions raised.

    1. Ship size
    Pros of 3K max mass:
    - Ships easy to build and mass produce
    - Small and maneuverable, so combat is fun.

    Cons of 3K max mass:
    - Very little room for error or decoration and interior
    - Very little room for error due to power scaling (regen as well as capacity, and only capacity is remedied)
    - No multipurpose vessels due to limited space.
    - Minimal interior, basic exterior doombricks win due to better surface-to-volume ratio and thus better systems.

    Question raised: Do 1K mass ships really stand a better chance against 3K mass than against 5K mass?
    Due to hull-to-system ratio rapidly improving up to 5K mass, meaning bigger ships always have more system blocks per hull block if intended for actual gameplay and not just display at your station, I don't really think a 1K mass ship alone would ever stand more of a chance against a 3K mass than against a 5K mass. Hell, a 3K mass ship barely stands more of a chance against a 5K than a 1K would. It will always be heavily outgunned due to the bigger ship being able to afford more system blocks, not to mention the scaling of power generation and capacity. Simple geometry (surface to volume ratio) and arithmetics. Unless you go for unhulled cubes of system blocks, which will probably be seen if the limit is set too low. 5K mass however leaves more space for creativity without sacrificing much performance in the process. Of course, this assumes all players are on an equal level of building and piloting skill and doesn't factor in multiple small ships against a single big one.

    2. Warheads
    Question raised:
    - Are warheads viable at this size range?
    The viability of warheads at 3-5K mass are questionable at best. The chance of hitting a ship that size with a warhead torpedo is miniscule, due to the target being small, maneuverable and fast. The whole point of the mass cap. Unless you catch someone off guard (like raiding a mining ship) or directly ramming them with your ship using a warhead lance, good luck hitting.
    - Do we need a buff for warhead damage?
    However if you DO hit, due to the small ship size, it's a lot easier to deal critical damage. That paired with the fact it bypasses shields should be enough, without a buff to damage or blast radius.

    3. Sector size.
    Vanilly sector sizes pros:
    - Smaller server database, less server load
    - Shorter distances when moving with conventional thrusters
    - Easier accessible resources
    Vanilla sector size cons:
    (- Higher chance of multi-sector overlapping structures - eliminated by size cap)
    - Much more annoying combat (locking target in sectors diagonal to you, crosshair resetting at every sector change, weird positioning upon entering or exiting planetary sectors)

    Expanded sector size pros:
    - Smoother combat (fewer sector changes mid-fight)
    - Jump drives and warp gates become important to have and have a higher value (due to their distance being sector based not distance based)
    - Smaller chance of overlapping structures
    Expanded sector size cons:
    - slower mining (lot more travel time between asteroid clusters)
    - Bigger universe database
    - Larger distances (travelling on conventional thrusters)

    Question raised: Do larger sectors really make it harder to meet up with people? Jump drives and warp gates work based on number of sector travelled not distance to your target so if you can go FTL, sector sizes don't really matter. Sensors and scanners also work independently from sector size.

    4. BlockBehaviorConfig changes (power, weapons etc.)
    Pros:
    - Optimalised performance for the server's specific environment
    Cons:
    - Ships built for this server behave differently or become outright useless on vanilla configs and vice versa.

    The whole blueprint system's created around sharing your creations and being able to carry them over to other servers you play on. You kill exactly that if you apply custom block configs. It can work, but it can also scare away some people who'd like to be able to use prebuilt ships or export ships from this server.
     

    Az14el

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    I quite like the 3k cap purely because they're quick to build, 5k wouldn't hurt for me but I can understand sticking with your guns here, there are a plenitude of good reasons to go bigger but considering all of them would just defeat the whole point.

    Sector sizes should definitely be buffed, maneuvering in combat in small & fast ships with default sector sizes is a hell i wish on nobody.

    Mining idc really, higher rates for more arcadey/chill natured server would suit it as much as hardcore vanilla-like survival rates i think. Either way it wouldnt take much of a grind just to get yourself a decent ship.

    Warhead- <edit because never let me suggest warhead stuff> probably leave em default fam, they're just not the blocks we wish they were yet, edits or not.
     
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    BDLS and I seem to remember a similar server, can't remember what it was called though.
     
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    Experimenting with some config changes sounds good. I would personally lean towards a larger sector size (like 5km or so) and decreased weapons range (keeping the weapons' ranges to the same ratios.) We're going to have small craft, so extreme ranges are going to be a pain, but at close range things should get plenty hectic, and if the AI likewise prefers close range combat because ranges are limited the more the better. Keep the max speed below 300 m/s should help prevent things from getting too headache inducingly zippy at the proposed size range.

    Oh, and increasing the range of jump drives and warp gates would be nice, just to make getting around easier.
     
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    I like the idea of increased speed of FTL (Is it actually all that faster than light?) travel. Definitely keep actual velocities down. Whether that means defaults or even slower (World of Scaled-Down-Replicas, anyone?) to make shooting people possible probably requires a vote, and that even if someone actually makes a server like this. Speaking of which, anyone want to actually make a server like this?
     
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    I say stick to your guns on the mass limit. I'd like a challenge! Lol

    And probably put sector size to 10 or 15, especially if you make the weapons keep their default ranges.

    And keep the speed limit default! Lol
     
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    I agree---keep the mass limit down.

    I'd say set the hard cap to about 3500, but have a soft-cap for shell and systems at 3k. In other words, you could leave space for decorations/greebles/interior details yet still have most ships come in at or under the 3k mark.
     
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    The_Owl

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    Two questions on my mind right now since most people have asked the others;

    1: What would the mining bonus be? (Unclaimed & claimed systems)

    2: What faction config would you be using if this server went live?
     

    EMC007

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    unfortunately high server speed is just as cancerous to stable combat as low sector size, so the compromise is sectors actually feel large (which i personally like) and use jumps to travel beyond local range

    Oh, yeah, no, I didn't mean that I wanted a high server speed, I don't enjoy that either because it makes it nearly impossible to stop your ship, and then you enter the physics-breaking territory of the game, which is no fun for anyone.

    I was just saying that we don't want sectors to be TOO big, because, like someone else said earlier, people won't be anywhere near as interactive with eachother, and then we might as well be playing alone.