Inclusive Gaming

[cancer313]

So it occurred to me when I was watching the trailer for the second time that the default character skin for both Starmade and Minecraft are both masculine presenting models with "boy" names. I then started thinking about the representation of character in popular sandbox games and how it relates to the rest of the gamer world.
Now I have spoken out before about sexism and representation in gaming but I have never thought of this genera because I never considered the default character model really important. But watching the trailer and seeing the entire universe populated with masculine characters, it struck me. That was a huge message I think, and while I don't think it is intentional, the message I got out of that is that the default demographic this game is targeting is boys and men. To have a character that resembles you in someway you have to create your own skin or go download one. Further more the skin tone of dave is white. So now we have an idea of an entire universe populated with white guys. While I don't assume the erasure of other demographics is malevolent or intentional, I certainly think it has an exclusive affect. I think it would be beneficial and more inclusive if there were other default skin options. The uniforms don't need to change or anything, just the gender identity and skin color options. I think as it stands right now the trailer just made it look like a universe of white dudes and thats kind of silly.

 

[Kojinus]

While I don't disagree with you about any of this, it's worth mentioning that Starmade is being created by a fairly small team, while the act of making different skin tones or body shapes may seem trivial, it all has to be weighted against the larger picture of releasing their game in a reasonable amount of time, which means prioritizing more gameplay important features.

Down the road I'm sure they have plans to incorporate a lot more character customization, but as of right now I'm fairly sure that's really a back burner feature.

EDIT: Also I just forgot, you can create custom skins for the game, players have made tons of custom skins that you can use to change how your character looks! :D

 

[Master1398]

I totally agree with you. There should be more default skin options for players.
But als long as there aren't other skins to choose from you may check out my program: SMSG
You can choose from various 'parts' to create a skin for yourself.
"...a universe of white dudes ..."
> There are ten different skin tones that you can use
> Gender selection comes with the next update which comes probably before sunday (all i need is to clean up some code and get that damn female haircut done)

 

[kupu]

Dave is a character from 2001 : Space Odyssey. A favourite for some of our team. Our Dave is a nod towards the film, that character and the boyish smirk he wears.

As a team we are not misogynistic or misanthropes , racists or homophobic. We simply enjoy movies.

The Texture Pack and Skin section of the forums has a few people working on alternative face packs, female variants or bug men for whatever you may fancy. To edit it yourself, you need only to find the director Starmade > Data > Models > Character to find a wealth of editable PNG files that can be altered in a program of your choosing.

While inclusive gaming is a noteworthy topic (and Omni plans to put more variants in) it falls moot in Starmade on this particular count for said reasons.

If i can quote you here;

...and while I don't think it is intentional, the message I got out of that is that the default demographic this game is targeting is boys and men.

Should the default model be female would it only target women? Or should the model be black is it considered targeting a black audience? No. This logic is folly.

Hope that clears a few things for you and our intentions.

 

[aceface]

What do you expect? A game made by males, targeted to males and having a community composing of at least 90% males. Also the reason for it being only daves was the fact that he used npcs which all have the same skin.

 

[cancer313]

While I don't disagree with you about any of this, it's worth mentioning that Starmade is being created by a fairly small team, while the act of making different skin tones or body shapes may seem trivial, it all has to be weighted against the larger picture of releasing their game in a reasonable amount of time, which means prioritizing more gameplay important features.

Down the road I'm sure they have plans to incorporate a lot more character customization, but as of right now I'm fairly sure that's really a back burner feature.

EDIT: Also I just forgot, you can create custom skins for the game, players have made tons of custom skins that you can use to change how your character looks! :D

Yes I know you can make your own skins but that wasn't really the point. Dave is the face of starmade, they could have at leased used other skin models in the trailer. It is about representation. The skin packs are already out there actually it would just be a matter of listing them as options for your character by default, like on the menu or something.[DOUBLEPOST=1417741152,1417741008][/DOUBLEPOST]

What do you expect? A game made by males, targeted to males and having a community composing of at least 90% males. Also the reason for it being only daves was the fact that he used npcs which all have the same skin.

Yes thats the problem, representation often dictates who approaches the game because it can make people feel welcome into the community. There is no reason a sandbox game should be targeted towards a specific gender or ethnicity, that is as I said before, silly.[DOUBLEPOST=1417741473][/DOUBLEPOST]

Dave is a character from 2001 : Space Odyssey. A favourite for some of our team. Our Dave is a nod towards the film, that character and the boyish smirk he wears.

As a team we are not misogynistic or misanthropes , racists or homophobic. We simply enjoy movies.

The Texture Pack and Skin section of the forums has a few people working on alternative face packs, female variants or bug men for whatever you may fancy. To edit it yourself, you need only to find the director Starmade > Data > Models > Character to find a wealth of editable PNG files that can be altered in a program of your choosing.

While inclusive gaming is a noteworthy topic (and Omni plans to put more variants in) it falls moot in Starmade on this particular count for said reasons.

If i can quote you here;


Should the default model be female would it only target women? Or should the model be black is it considered targeting a black audience? No. This logic is folly.

Hope that clears a few things for you and our intentions.

Yes I got the reference, but thanks.
And no I don't think there should be one default model at all. I think if anything there should be a drop down bar with multiple choices as defaults, maybe all of them could be gender or ethnicity bent versions of Dave to keep the theme (although this might prove problematic) You could also make them each references to other scifi movie characters. That would be fantastic because it draws attention to the myriad of characters that exist in scifi.
I never called your team phobic anything, I was merely pointing out what I consider an oversight. However if you think that representation doesn't matter in this case then I would call that a tad ignorant.

 

[Viridis00]

Yes thats the problem, representation often dictates who approaches the game because it can make people feel welcome into the community.

Sorry but that just makes no sense. That's like saying as someone white I wouldn't feel welcome to play GTA San Andreas because you can only play as a black dude, or 90% of the JRPGs I've played because there's only an Asian protagonist. Not everyone sees race and sex when they go to play a game, some of us just want to play the damn game.

And what aceface said is pretty true also.

 

[cancer313]

What do you expect? A game made by males, targeted to males and having a community composing of at least 90% males. Also the reason for it being only daves was the fact that he used npcs which all have the same skin.

Also AceFace that is a pretty big assumption about who plays starmade. Unless you have data that reflects that I am going to have to bring up that a lot of games appear to have a largely male audience specifically because of how representation affects how everyone sees who plays the game, including the people who benefit form default characters being white men. There are currently more women gamers than ever before so I seriously doubt they dont represent a fair portion of this community and if they dont it is likely not because it isnt a game for women. Because this isnt a game for men either. That narrative comes from viewing the gaming industry as Men being the default and women having their own genera. That narrative is where sexism in gaming largely comes from I think.[DOUBLEPOST=1417742512,1417742258][/DOUBLEPOST]

Sorry but that just makes no sense. That's like saying as someone white I wouldn't feel welcome to play GTA San Andreas because you can only play as a black dude, or 90% of the JRPGs I've played because there's only an Asian protagonist. Not everyone sees race and sex when they go to play a game, some of us just want to play the damn game.

And what aceface said is pretty true also.

That would be true if we didnt live in a society entrenched in white privilege. A white guy has the luxury of not having to think about it because it doesnt negatively affect you. You could care less about representation because you can very easily find a game in any genera that has a character that resembles your demographic. So no it actually isnt the same, because you have more options than others, you experience representation the majority of the time.[DOUBLEPOST=1417742678][/DOUBLEPOST]

Sorry but that just makes no sense. That's like saying as someone white I wouldn't feel welcome to play GTA San Andreas because you can only play as a black dude, or 90% of the JRPGs I've played because there's only an Asian protagonist. Not everyone sees race and sex when they go to play a game, some of us just want to play the damn game.

And what aceface said is pretty true also.

Here is a sort of good introductory article to why representation matters http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...y-and-the-fight-for-inclusivity-in-games.aspx

 

[Comr4de]

It is about representation.

It's about building spaceships, jesus christ.

maybe all of them could be gender or ethnicity bent versions

Except this isn't true diversity. With this you're acknowledging that the concept of a "ethnically/gender diverse" character is too weak to stand on its own, so you take an existing character and rebrand it.

That would be fantastic because it draws attention to the myriad of characters that exist in scifi.

If thats the case, how about some actual, strongly developed characters that fit your political criteria?

Idris Janek, captain of the Prometheus

Ellen Ripley, remover of xenomorph

We don't have to genderbend or racebend shit. [Comment withheld]

That would be true if we didnt live in a society entrenched in white privilege. A white guy has the luxury of not having to think about it because it doesnt negatively affect you. You could care less about representation because you can very easily find a game in any genera that has a character that resembles your demographic. So no it actually isnt the same, because you have more options than others, you experience representation the majority of the time.

The fact that you're getting this bent out of shape over a character model in a goddamn alpha game is unsettling.

Let me break something to you; you are on the internet. You could literally be anybody you want. You could claim to be female, or black, or whatever. It doesn't matter. You are pixels on a screen here. Literally everyone on the internet (until they post clearly identifiable information about their true identity) is judged on their merit and actions alone.


Edit: It is clear that you are pushing a political agenda that has slowly but surely become a major factor in video game design and development. I strongly encourage you to avoid pushing your politics onto others.

 

[Viridis00]

That would be true if we didnt live in a society entrenched in white privilege. A white guy has the luxury of not having to think about it because it doesnt negatively affect you.

Typical, race matters except when it's a white person. Also, last I checked Japan is less than .001% white, should I go whining about the lack of representation in JRPGs to the Japanese? None of this negatively or positively effects anyone.

Also AceFace that is a pretty big assumption about who plays starmade. Unless you have data that reflects that

Considering that diverse skin pack that someone made a while back only has 15 downloads compared to skins like Halo and such having 80+, I think those numbers speak a lot that not many people actually give that much of a damn about diversity, and more about having fun with sci-fi stuff.

 

[Comr4de]

Cancer, it occurred to me that you may be lost. I'll help you.

 

[kupu]

Dave is the face of starmade, they could have at leased used other skin models in the trailer.

You both make a point and defeat it here. Dave is indeed the face of Starmade. That is our character. To shoe horn in a token ethnicity is positive discrimination and not accurate with what the players experience or will experience at the time of the airing the trailer.

I was merely pointing out what I consider an oversight.

It's not an oversight,

...(Omni plans to put more variants in)

However if you think that representation doesn't matter in this case then I would call that a tad ignorant.

It doesn't. Although please don't berate others for assumptions whilst making your own.

While inclusive gaming is a noteworthy topic...

I am actually an advocate for designers breaking out of tropes. But this is not a conventional narrative driven game. We encourage you to make your own skins, along with your own ships, stations factions and friends. We have simply provided a relatively plain template character based on one of our favourite things.

 

[cancer313]

It's about building spaceships, jesus christ.

Except this isn't true diversity. With this you're acknowledging that the concept of a "ethnically/gender diverse" character is too weak to stand on its own, so you take an existing character and rebrand it.

If thats the case, how about some actual, strongly developed characters that fit your political criteria?

Idris Janek, captain of the Prometheus

Ellen Ripley, remover of xenomorph

We don't have to genderbend or racebend shit. [Comment withheld]

The fact that you're getting this bent out of shape over a character model in a goddamn alpha game is unsettling.

Let me break something to you; you are on the internet. You could literally be anybody you want. You could claim to be female, or black, or whatever. It doesn't matter. You are pixels on a screen here. Literally everyone on the internet (until they post clearly identifiable information about their true identity) is judged on their merit and actions alone.


Edit: It is clear that you are pushing a political agenda that has slowly but surely become a major factor in video game design and development. I strongly encourage you to avoid pushing your politics onto others.

Okay so first of all I addressed that the first idea was problematic, right after mentioning it. I only mentioned it to get it out of the way early as a prospect, maybe I wasn't clear enough about that.
Also I like your suggestions for strong characters as default skins. They fit with the theme of movie references. I am not bent out of shape nor was I ever. So I am sorry if you are getting bent out of shape over the suggestion of proper representation in a game that has no reason not to include other default skins.
And to your idea that you can be anyone you want on the internet, I do not see how that is relevant. The discussion we are having has to do with who you are in the game and currently the person you are as a default in the game is a white guy.
As to your thing about a political agenda, you are damn right. I am certainly not afraid to admit that I am politically inclined to find issue with the exclusion of women and people of color from my favorite games. Maybe I wouldn't "push" it so much if the system we live in didnt put white men as a default almost without fail.

I think you need to relax, people suggest changes to the game all the time. This is one that wouldn't affect how you would play at all.[DOUBLEPOST=1417744207,1417744012][/DOUBLEPOST]

You both make a point and defeat it here. Dave is indeed the face of Starmade. That is our character. To shoe horn in a token ethnicity is positive discrimination and not accurate with what the players experience or will experience at the time of the airing the trailer.



It's not an oversight,




It doesn't. Although please don't berate others for assumptions whilst making your own.

I am actually an advocate for designers breaking out of tropes. But this is not a conventional narrative driven game. We encourage you to make your own skins, along with your own ships, stations factions and friends. We have simply provided a relatively plain character based on one of our favorite things.

But your definition of a plain character is a white man which is the problem
I'm glad there are going to be more variants as that was all I was suggesting
I wasn't asking for token characters I was asking for a universe that wasn't full of only white men.[DOUBLEPOST=1417744429][/DOUBLEPOST]

Typical, race matters except when it's a white person. Also, last I checked Japan is less than .001% white, should I go whining about the lack of representation in JRPGs to the Japanese? None of this negatively or positively effects anyone.


Considering that diverse skin pack that someone made a while back only has 15 downloads compared to skins like Halo and such having 80+, I think those numbers speak a lot that not many people actually give that much of a damn about diversity, and more about having fun with sci-fi stuff.

On the contrary the typical narrative is race matters only when a white person discusses it. This is apparent if you pay attention to media and individual reactions to discussion on race. More often than not a white person discussing race is more likely to be heard than a person of color, which is ironic to say the least.
Once again, it doesnt negatively or positively affect white men while having the potential to make a difference to others and boost interest in the game. I don't see how having more options for skins as a default is a problematic suggestion.

 

[kupu]

No. It isn't.

We could of had a plain black female character. But that's not Dave. Because Dave is a movie reference.

 

[cancer313]

No. It isn't.

We could of had a plain black female character. But that's not Dave. Because Dave is a movie reference.

So which is it Kupu is it a movie reference or a plain character?

If it is your definition of a plain character then that is indeed a problem because it is reasserting that white men are the default.
I understand it is a movie reference, I have no qualm with Dave himself as a skin I have a problem with him being the only option.
Youre telling me that when you look at the trailer and see all those Daves, you don't see a representation problem?

 

[Mr. V]

... a futuristic universe without females... between this and the recent buy-with-blocks change, whatever will I squander all my hard-earned space cash-money on????

Beyond that you raise a valid point - I'm seriously offended that the easily customizable/changeable default Dave skin doesn't have tattoos, chain-smoke cigarettes, and have a propensity to over-indulge in alcohol at less than appropriate times.

I feel extremely under-represented. ...... when will this hate mongering that forces me to exert effort to edit graphics if I want them to look like me and/or search for a different downloadable skin through the Starmade-provided website area that allows other users to share alternate skins end??? I feel so discriminated against.

 

[cancer313]

We can have multiple default options for textures and that goes off and theres no problem. But I suggest a few more default skins and suddenly everyone is all aggressive.
Let me ask you, how difficult was it to create that drop down bar for the t

... a futuristic universe without females... between this and the recent buy-with-blocks change, whatever will I squander all my hard-earned space cash-money on????

Beyond that you raise a valid point - I'm seriously offended that the easily customizable/changeable default Dave skin doesn't have tattoos, chain-smoke cigarettes, and have a propensity to over-indulge in alcohol at less than appropriate times.

I feel extremely under-represented. ...... when will this hate mongering that forces me to exert effort to edit graphics if I want them to look like me and/or search for a different downloadable skin through the Starmade-provided website area that allows other users to share alternate skins end??? I feel so discriminated against.

A Lovely demonstration of how you don't care about more skins, many claps friend, good use of sarcasm. Good job completely missing the point as well.

 

[Viridis00]

To shoe horn in a token ethnicity is

So much, this. I actually like to write stories in my spare time along with a friend of mine who is a serious writer and we'd both come to the conclusion that it's pretty damn intellectually dishonest to do that in a story. By trying to just shoehorn other races and groups in as token comes off strong in your writing as incredibly lazy. You can see this in some games too actually, ESPECIALLY modern Bioware (though that might just be because they can't write, period). Let writers do what they want. In this case, let devs develop how they want because if you force someone you just end up with a half assed job and you've got another useless token.

For all these people who bitch about representation, I don't see them going out there and making their own games to "correct the problem", they just complain about others work and occasionally try and make some mediocre piece focused on being diverse to the point where they forgot to actually make the game good.

problematic

Now I know for sure this whole topic is just bait with all those buzzwords. Straight out of the tumblr handbook or some crap like that.

 

[cancer313]

We can have multiple default options for textures and that goes off and theres no problem. But I suggest a few more default skins and suddenly everyone is all aggressive.
Let me ask you, how difficult was it to create that drop down bar for the texture options?
Why could there not be one for skins, with a few models who arent Dave?
I am not indulging this derailment anymore, it is frankly getting ridiculous.
I think all you guys need to stop and take a second to consider what is actually being asked verses what you are postulating. As well as considering the fact that you dont have to write stereotype token characters to make a small step to make a game that involves an entire universe approachable a bit more universally.

 

[kupu]

So which is it Kupu is it a movie reference or a plain character?

Both, because Omni is a smart lad. Notice the lack of bright red space suit. He is in grey attire. He is plain, as in lack of detail density. He is dave, as in kubricks lad with that smirk, name and complexion.

Your passion for equality is noble. Your efforts misguided. When you discuss representation it almost reads as pity. Starmade is not a platform to represent who you feel are incapable of representing themselves or to empower *insert non white male* through positive discrimination.

When the new skins are ready, i very much doubt they will be a Dave 2.0. I hope to see different characters (probably still in plain grey mind). But to cram them in now with no thought other than "make him non white to hit the quota" is disingenuous and less pressing than critical Steam release trouble shooting.

As for the trailer, most of the bodies shown were AI using default AI skins. Which as you noted, we have 1 of.