How to Overhaul Your Pirates

[Asvarduil]

The TL;DR Edition: By changing the pirate station content, and making pirate stations rarer, and ensuring that weak pirates with limited loot appear, we can have better PvE without any coding or design changes to the game as-is.

The Suggestion
So, I was screwing around with an idea for ship construction I had over the weekend (in short, I now make ships shaped like swords). I decided to try a new ship design out against a pirate station, because they're a reliable way to make ships appear. After some assault passes I jumped away, satisfied at my progress.

Reflecting on my strafing runs made me realize there's a relatively easy way to improve the PvE experiernce in this game...with minimal coding changes.

First, pirate stations need to be dangerous. The current pirate station designs should be retired in favor of more modern prefabs, not only to better showcase new systems like rails, but to have each prefab be a different combat challenge. Some bases should be well-shielded; others should have dangerous turrets. Others should release a swarm of pirate drones. There's all sorts of possibilities; best of all, this does not require a code change to implement!

The reason you attack a pirate station, is because of the loot that gets randomly generated in the chest inside. Stations need loot to be worth the time preparing an assault. I strongly encourage a shipyard design to be included in the loot table, as the ability to build a cool new ship easily is important in a game like StarMade. Some stations do in fact have loot that spawns in chests, so this may not require much coding either.

Pirate stations should always have a flaw that allows for a boarding action. That being said, boarding a station should be as daunting as a ship assault; pirate stations should be laced with traps and parkour puzzles meant to deter people on foot. When the Astronaut aspect of the game is better defined, you could have some FPS fun, but frankly, StarMade Mario itself can be an interesting challenge. Again, as this is a design consideration of prefabricated content, and players already know how to make traps, this is a code-less way to enhance the game experience.

Pirate stations, being a difficult target, should be rare. Indeed, pirate stations should serve as a place for new pirate vessels to be spawned in at, before they join pirate raiding parties. This also makes stations a priority, because leaving one up ensures that you never have full control over a sector. A good rule of thumb would be one major pirate hub per sector; two hubs would make a sector effectively hostile to players, unless a faction expands into that sector that can deal with it.

Even without stations, pirate raiding parties should spawn in every now and again. Pirates in StarMade are as foundational a danger - and reward - as monsters are in MineCraft. The pirates spawned in should tend towards being easily beatable, as these are in essence 'random encounters' that make a combative play style possible, and make more passive 'miner' and 'trader' play styles dangerous. One ship in any pirate formation that spawns should have some booty - not nearly as much as a station, of course - to reward the player, in the event that none of the ships can be salvaged.

Pirates that spawn should have an equivalent mass to your currently-piloted ship. Thus, if you're in a small ship, you should be dealing with small pirate ships, so that things aren't too imbalanced. If you're in a corvette, you should be fighting corvettes. If you have a super-titan, get ready to fight a fellow super-titan. Lastly, if you're in Astronaut mode, no ships should spawn. You need a ship in order to do much of anything useful in this game. Being on a planet should also not cause pirate spawns.

 

[psteiner]

I really connect with your final idea of increasing pirate spawn rates. In singleplayer, and in many servers, I really don't see any pirates for the first week. I mean, the chances of me running into pirates on a popular server are so ridiculously low that I don't even equip my miners with weapons anymore in the first week. It would be significantly more engaging if there were smaller (~ 20 block) ships that spawned in more frequently. Maybe 1-5 cannon blocks and some hull, something akin to a small drone that spawned in groups of 2-5.

Although, is it possible to implement these changes in the current server settings?

Something along this size scale with minimalist weaponry. The kind of thing that really isn't a threat unless you are careless...

 

[Asvarduil]

I really connect with your final idea of increasing pirate spawn rates. In singleplayer, and in many servers, I really don't see any pirates for the first week. I mean, the chances of me running into pirates on a popular server are so ridiculously low that I don't even equip my miners with weapons anymore in the first week. It would be significantly more engaging if there were smaller (~ 20 block) ships that spawned in more frequently. Maybe 1-5 cannon blocks and some hull, something akin to a small drone that spawned in groups of 2-5.

Although, is it possible to implement these changes in the current server settings?

I amended my suggestion with a point about having pirates spawn in with equivalent masses to the ship you're piloting. I think having a very small ship - for instance, the Origin M50 is an appropriate match for most starter ships - minimal shields and weapons, but durable enough to put up a decent fight.

Edit: Actually, the M50 in that link might be a bit too durable; if it was down-armored to standard armor or just hull, that'd be a better entry-level challenge. Still, the point remains.

 

[Haalon]

I strongly encourage a shipyard design to be included in the loot table, as the ability to build a cool new ship easily is important in a game like StarMade.

This. We surely need designs as a rewards or affordable items - both for newcomers and for those, like myself, who are too lazy to actually finish big ships they started to build

 

[Asvarduil]

This. We surely need designs as a rewards or affordable items - both for newcomers and for those, like myself, who are too lazy to actually finish big ships they started to build

I do think that there need to be a variety of designs, though. Sure, it'd be awesome to find a really neat pirate Dreadnaught design, but what about a neat corvette with a chain drive, or a permacloak fighter, or even a humble mining ship?

The possibilities are legion, and that's what would make these changes work out so well - by doing this, the SM developers could make conflict net-profitable, but can also open up different ways to play. It's a victory in the game design sense in nearly every way.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

The TL;DR Edition: By changing the pirate station content, and making pirate stations rarer, and ensuring that weak pirates with limited loot appear, we can have better PvE without any coding or design changes to the game as-is.

The Suggestion
So, I was screwing around with an idea for ship construction I had over the weekend (in short, I now make ships shaped like swords). I decided to try a new ship design out against a pirate station, because they're a reliable way to make ships appear. After some assault passes I jumped away, satisfied at my progress.

Reflecting on my strafing runs made me realize there's a relatively easy way to improve the PvE experiernce in this game...with minimal coding changes.

First, pirate stations need to be dangerous. The current pirate station designs should be retired in favor of more modern prefabs, not only to better showcase new systems like rails, but to have each prefab be a different combat challenge. Some bases should be well-shielded; others should have dangerous turrets. Others should release a swarm of pirate drones. There's all sorts of possibilities; best of all, this does not require a code change to implement!

The reason you attack a pirate station, is because of the loot that gets randomly generated in the chest inside. Stations need loot to be worth the time preparing an assault. I strongly encourage a shipyard design to be included in the loot table, as the ability to build a cool new ship easily is important in a game like StarMade. Some stations do in fact have loot that spawns in chests, so this may not require much coding either.

Pirate stations should always have a flaw that allows for a boarding action. That being said, boarding a station should be as daunting as a ship assault; pirate stations should be laced with traps and parkour puzzles meant to deter people on foot. When the Astronaut aspect of the game is better defined, you could have some FPS fun, but frankly, StarMade Mario itself can be an interesting challenge. Again, as this is a design consideration of prefabricated content, and players already know how to make traps, this is a code-less way to enhance the game experience.

Pirate stations, being a difficult target, should be rare. Indeed, pirate stations should serve as a place for new pirate vessels to be spawned in at, before they join pirate raiding parties. This also makes stations a priority, because leaving one up ensures that you never have full control over a sector. A good rule of thumb would be one major pirate hub per sector; two hubs would make a sector effectively hostile to players, unless a faction expands into that sector that can deal with it.

Even without stations, pirate raiding parties should spawn in every now and again. Pirates in StarMade are as foundational a danger - and reward - as monsters are in MineCraft. The pirates spawned in should tend towards being easily beatable, as these are in essence 'random encounters' that make a combative play style possible, and make more passive 'miner' and 'trader' play styles dangerous. One ship in any pirate formation that spawns should have some booty - not nearly as much as a station, of course - to reward the player, in the event that none of the ships can be salvaged.

Pirates that spawn should have an equivalent mass to your currently-piloted ship. Thus, if you're in a small ship, you should be dealing with small pirate ships, so that things aren't too imbalanced. If you're in a corvette, you should be fighting corvettes. If you have a super-titan, get ready to fight a fellow super-titan. Lastly, if you're in Astronaut mode, no ships should spawn. You need a ship in order to do much of anything useful in this game. Being on a planet should also not cause pirate spawns.

Over all, I like your idea but there are some things I disagree with as well. I'll expand on each of your points and offer any counter proposals that I feel might lead to am even better PVE experience. I'd like to know your thoughts after you read them.

Pirate stations need to be dangerous: I agree. Currently, stations are far too easy to kill; even with smaller ships. You just sit back outside their weapons range and pick off the turrets. Boring! These things need shielding in the millions with a fast recharge, I'm even in favor of giving stations a buff to shield regen or always on defensive effects. To fight back, they should have well placed turrets with enough fire power to drive away tankers and enough range to deter snipers.

The reason you attack a pirate station, is because of the loot that gets randomly generated in the chest inside: Agreed. However, I wouldn't limit the reward to just ship blueprints. I think all meta items including personal weapons, gear, credits and log books should be common drops from pirate station chests. When the crew feature is finalized, I'd like to see the ability to rescue prisoners and recruit them into your crew.

Pirate stations should always have a flaw that allows for a boarding action: Disagree. My counter proposal; I think if you want to board and capture a station, then it should be the ultimate PVE challenge. You need to disable their defenses, lower their shields then breach the structure. The station should not immediately decay when they overheat but rather after the overheat timer expires. They should have an environment suitable for boarding, including a new version of the creature spawner which generates pirate crew in random areas of the ship who you can fight in astronaut mode. Destroying the faction block, replacing it with your own, then rebooting the station stops the over heat timer and allows capture of the station.

Pirate stations, being a difficult target, should be rare: Disagree. ...with a caveat. I think this should be a server config option and not a hard game mechanic.

Even without stations, pirate raiding parties should spawn in every now and again: Disagree. ...with a caveat. Counter proposal; I think that the wave spawn radius of stations should be increased substantially rather than just spawn in ships randomly. That way, you can become aware that there is a base nearby. So instead of needing a pirate base to be within 2-3 sectors to generate a spawn, how about within 2-3 systems. Multiple bases in range means more pirate spawns

Pirates that spawn should have an equivalent mass to your currently-piloted ship: Somewhat disagree. Normally, I think scaling is a good thing but when I'm just starting out in single player, i don't expect to fight pirates. I expect to run like hell when I see them, mine like crazy than manufacture a ship that can survive their attacks and even fight back. With that having been said, I could support an overall wave difficulty (both in individual enemy ship mass and number of ships) that scales with the player's current ship's mass. When allied or trade guild ships are nearby, the waves should automatically get harder to compensate for your having backup.

 

[Asvarduil]

You make some good points, and offer some good, complimenting ideas.

Pirate stations should always have a flaw that allows for a boarding action: Disagree.

On this one, we'll have to agree to disagree.

The reason I think that PvE stations need a flaw that renders them susceptible to astronauts, instead of just being capable of breaking a station's defenses (and thus breaking the station) is because right now, in the game as an Astronaut, there's only two things you can't do well - travel in space, or fight other things. Instead of asking Schine to code new things - something that they won't do, because they're chasing ideas that sound good to them, as is their perogative - I say, let's use what we've got in the game now to its fullest potential. Right now, we can have parkour and traps with the stuff we have in the game. Because of stations being powerful, you can be certain that an astronaut can't simply mine their way past the challenges; if the player wants loot, they have to earn it by besting the station itself.

Even without stations, pirate raiding parties should spawn in every now and again: Disagree. ...with a caveat

The counter-proposal is a good idea, so maybe an amendment is in order. Try this on - the spawn rate in a sector is proportional to the number of pirate stations. That being said, each sector does periodically spawn pirates, even without a station. After all - random encounters, these are.

Everything else, I'm good with. Great thoughts!

 

[Dr. Whammy]

You make some good points, and offer some good, complimenting ideas.



On this one, we'll have to agree to disagree.

The reason I think that PvE stations need a flaw that renders them susceptible to astronauts, instead of just being capable of breaking a station's defenses (and thus breaking the station) is because right now, in the game as an Astronaut, there's only two things you can't do well - travel in space, or fight other things. Instead of asking Schine to code new things - something that they won't do, because they're chasing ideas that sound good to them, as is their perogative - I say, let's use what we've got in the game now to its fullest potential. Right now, we can have parkour and traps with the stuff we have in the game. Because of stations being powerful, you can be certain that an astronaut can't simply mine their way past the challenges; if the player wants loot, they have to earn it by besting the station itself.

I can understand your point of view. The reason I made this suggestion is because of three things that even the best station designers may not be able to counter.

1) Shield sharing limits: Whether it's 50% or 25%, dropping the shields below a certain threshold will make all docked turrets vulnerable. To render a station's defenses useless against a boarding operation you don't have to kill all the turrets; just those pointed in your direction. Which brings me to issue number 2.

2) Blind spots: If you can pick off the turrets facing you, the rest can't shoot through the station to get you. You are free to blast a hole through the doors/walls with your ship's main guns. Failing that, just whip out your torch and warhead charges and pull a covert ops stunt that will make Solid Snake jealous.

3) Power armor. When I came to terms with the fact that my 6 meter tall power armor suits may be too large to fit through most station corridors, I started experimenting with a 2.75-3 meter tall armed "micro armor" that will survive lava traps, small-medium warhead traps, most anti-personnel turrets and small damage pulse traps.

Pirate crew would never stand a chance against something like that. And to watch your back while you cut out the faction module, you can spawn a core and dock a micro anti-personnel turret of your own to it to kill any crew spawns. ...or just build a wall/mobile force field that they can't shoot through.

What do you think?

 

[Asvarduil]

What do I think?

Well, I want to see those power armors, first. Seems like a neat concept. You should totally upload a basic setup to the Shipyard.

Erecting structures inside a penetrated station is a good idea in theory, that I've tried in the past on our current stations, and I've found it less practical than you'd think. As we don't have enemy Astronaut NPCs - or even your power armor concept in-game - we don't need to worry about dealing with station security in the context of the current state of the game (which is what I'm talking about.)

Blind-spots and shield sharing are always going to be issues, on any build. You've got a point that overwhelming the shields, or sniping turrets is a way to compromise a station's defenses - that's part of why I want to see cases where players can infiltrate stations. I'd like to see more boarding actions and players taking the time to loot an intact station. You always have the option of blowing it up, after you've cleaned it out.

I just don't want StarMade to always be about brute-force on everything. StarMade is fundamentally a game about building stuff; ingenuity should generally have a leg-up on brute force at all times, otherwise you could just play EVE instead.

 

[Nickizzy]

First, pirate stations need to be dangerous.

The thing with this is that it wouldn't take coding, but it would take building by the devs. Unless we get another build challenge: make your own Pirate Station with it's own defenses and features.

I do think that there need to be a variety of designs, though. Sure, it'd be awesome to find a really neat pirate Dreadnaught design, but what about a neat corvette with a chain drive, or a permacloak fighter, or even a humble mining ship?

Especially if they had limited uses. Just because you got one exploration corvette BP doesn't mean you can fill the universe with them. More BPs per storage with smaller designs. To make it more involved they could be designs instead, so you would need infrastructure to use the profits of war, or someone to trade to who does. 1 use designs would need some coding, but only something like when you input the design it gets destroyed, no refunds.

It'd be cool if all of one type of pirate station were one faction, so all of the Alphas were banded together(or all of Dr. Whammy's Zarvaci[or whatever] themed pirates were together if we have a building challenge). Then they would have a home system, where there are a lot more of them, and if you destroy enough of their stations they'll send fleets out at you from there. This would require some coding though, so less easy to implement.

 

[Asvarduil]

The thing with this is that it wouldn't take coding, but it would take building by the devs. Unless we get another build challenge: make your own Pirate Station with it's own defenses and features.

I totally propose build challenges (yes, plural). Not only does it promote a strong sense of community, you can get some original ideas into the game. Besides, the Devs are working on features they think will help the game be better. By offloading to the community for some of the content it saves them work, and lets players see just what you can do in this game.

Heck, Schine can even make it a selling point - "Periodic design contests! Your ships and stations could be included into the game's world generation! Seek fame and build!" After all, this is a block-buildy game. But, I digress.

The point is - yes, totally, design contests for world-gen content.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Regarding big vs small and fleets vs capitals; This isn't about combat balance anymore. It's about the technical limitations of the game with regard to multi-player.

Example; I once received a request for help with pirate attacks from another player so I sent a squadron of 5-7 Pathfinder frigates to guard his base since it was already loaded. Each ship was only 100 meters long but covered with point defense turrets. While the fleet fought the pirates, it killed that player's frame rate and he asked me to make them leave.

This is what we want to avoid; lagging multi-player with our builds to the point where everyone's ping skyrockets and their fps tanks. Other than my preference for PVE over PVP, another key reason for my leaving multi-player entirely was the fact that my builds (while small) typically carry 8 or more point defense turrets to counter swarmers. This greatly added to server load and forced me to downgrade my ships; sacrificing survivability so as not to freeze/crash the server.

Not everyone is willing to do this so multi-player will never live up to its full potential until we all collectively scale back our builds or schine figures out a way to optimize the game in such a way that extreme size and entity count are no longer a problem.

 

[Valck]

This also makes stations a priority, because leaving one up ensures that you never have full control over a sector. A good rule of thumb would be one major pirate hub per sector; two hubs would make a sector effectively hostile to players, unless a faction expands into that sector that can deal with it.

Try this on - the spawn rate in a sector is proportional to the number of pirate stations. That being said, each sector does periodically spawn pirates, even without a station.

Before this gets any more out of hand, I'll throw this in:
Sector - StarMade Wiki
System - StarMade Wiki
Thanks ;)

 

[Asvarduil]

Before this gets any more out of hand, I'll throw this in:
Sector - StarMade Wiki
System - StarMade Wiki
Thanks ;)

No, I really meant sector. I know the difference. Still, it's good to post that for anyone who doesn't, so good on you!

 

[Valck]

No, I really meant sector. I know the difference. Still, it's good to post that for anyone who doesn't, so good on you!

If you say so ;)
Just curious how you'd get more than "one major pirate hub per sector" when the unmodified default limit is one station per sector... and why it would take two or more hubs per sector to effectively make a sector hostile to players, especially if you intend to reduce the overall number of pirate stations and make them more dangerous at the same time.

 

[Asvarduil]

If you say so ;)

Drat, you're right I had them backwards. By 'sector' I mean 'system', and vice versa. Oops!

As for why having multiple stations in a system would serve to make it more hostile, while stations are both rarer and themselves more dangerous - it's because the station's sector within the system would serve as a spawn point for new pirates. Yes, you could hunt pirate vessels all day, but it wouldn't do a lot of good, since the station would periodically be spawning them in (just probably not as fast as you're killing them off.) Having two stations in a system would essentially double the spawn speed; literally the first step in being able to explore the system without having a fight literally every other sector, would be to take down at least one station.

The only way to 'pacify' a system, is to eliminate all the stations. Even then, though, you'll still have residual pirate activity, so a system will never be 100% 'safe' - just significantly more so, since that residual pirate activity is through random encounters, tuned to your ship's mass.

Note - that's the part that's relevant for what we have in the game here and now. The Fleet System could implement the spawn/dispatch behavior, and the game already supports random spawns.

If you wanted to get super-duper creative and expand that with stuff we don't have in the game, you could make it take longer for factions to expand into a system if they have higher pirate activity in them, the reason being that the pirates are resisting the faction's efforts to expand into their system.

 

[Valck]

As for why having multiple stations in a system would serve to make it more hostile

That's the point. When you substitute systems for sectors, it suddenly makes sense, no further explanation required.