Gigantism

[Visitor]

Pirates I think should be scaled by both what the player is piloting and location I think.

Pirates scaling to the location makes sense but they shouldn't scale to the size of the player's ship in any situation outside of calculating what fleet of them has to be spawned to pursue said player. I actually think it'd be great if there'd be dangerous areas populated by pirate factions that are virtually impenetrable and where players have to depend on stealth, speed and wits.

Owning a Titan is just a step in the progression - at some point, everyone will get to it.

That I'd also regard as part of the problem. By no means big ships should be a natural step everyone is forced toward if they want to progress. They should be alternative, with profits but also noticeable shortcomings, lasting requirements and flaws, performing well under certain circumstances and excelling at certain tasks but being absolutely horrible and defenseless under others - balanced, not absolutely superior.

We need to let the new gameplay mechanics (Fleet control, BP repairing, Shipyards, HP system, etc) become a part of Starmade before we start throwing Titan builders under the bus.

It would be really great if you'd stop forcefully encouraging the 'us vs them' mentality. Both QuantumAnomaly and me already wrote in our respective posts in this very thread that the issue doesn't lie in the existence of titans, but general with scaling when it comes to size vs efficiency, rewards vs risks. Yes, it affects titans or whatever you'll call the biggest ships but it affects also everything else.

Also, while the balance will be further upset with new core features coming in, some adjustments have also to be made on the fly so the game will be relatively fair and playable currently. Some mechanics also benefits from being changed when it's still fresh rather than lodged so deep that changing one thing will make everything else fall apart.

I understand it's hard to read through all the posts, especially when some of them are such long, clunky walls of text but without doing so it's really hard to make convincing arguments.

 

[Mered4]

I feel that almost everyone in this discussion agrees with you, and that the majority are not throwing titan builders under the bus. However, it is beneficial to talk about these things because there are issues involved, both in their current state and possible future states. I can think of a few ways things like the HP update might make titans even MORE powerful. That doesnt mean anyone is personally attacking your playstyle or hating on anyone building titans, as MOST of the posts in this discussion have stated.

And you still seem to completely disregard the points I made earlier about time investment not being part of the issue. Any two players with equal amounts of time, the one using all of their resources on a titan will in most cases win out in every way unless the other player builds a titan and a drone carrier. This isnt inherently a bad thing, it merely goes to show that there is not much diversity in the playerbase, there are military ones and creative ones, and no real room for any other type of player.

So you're trying to say that it is advantageous to spend all your time on a titan instead of building a fleet?

Why?

In the amount of time it takes me to build a Titan, I could have built four of my Alpha Battleships. Only one of those is enough to give a Titan a run for their money. I'd argue that putting time and resources into a Titan right now is actually a DETRIMENT because you will be leaving yourself open to a host of attack strategies, not the least of which involves drone swarms. I like doing it because I like showing off my ships, but I also understand I won't roll over anyone with the proper preparation.

That I'd also regard as part of the problem. By no means big ships should be a natural step everyone is forced toward if they want to progress. They should be alternative, with profits but also noticeable shortcomings, lasting requirements and flaws, performing well under certain circumstances and excelling at certain tasks but being absolutely horrible and defenseless under others - balanced, not absolutely superior.

They are balanced. Use a drone carrier. Drone Carriers don't have to be the size of the Titans they counter - I have one in the works right now that's only 40k mass. It's cheap and efficient. When Fleet Control happens, drones will completely dominate Titans. The HP system could both benefit larger ships and smaller vessels - we just won't know until it is implemented. Thus, we should sit back, and wait for those changes to hit before we start laying down the nerf hammer.

 

[Visitor]

They are balanced. Use a drone carrier. Drone Carriers don't have to be the size of the Titans they counter - I have one in the works right now that's only 40k mass. It's cheap and efficient.

It seems that not only you didn't read my earlier post regarding drones, drone carriers and how they are still scaling in tune with gigantism issue - not just as titan opponents but in general - but you still look at the whole problem from the standpoint of titans. Forget titans for a moment, the thing applies to frigates, destroyers, personal shuttles, what-have-you.

When Fleet Control happens, drones will completely dominate Titans. The HP system could both benefit larger ships and smaller vessels - we just won't know until it is implemented. Thus, we should sit back, and wait for those changes to hit before we start laying down the nerf hammer.

Also, while the balance will be further upset with new core features coming in, some adjustments have also to be made on the fly so the game will be relatively fair and playable currently. Some mechanics also benefits from being changed when it's still fresh rather than lodged so deep that changing one thing will make everything else fall apart.

 

[QuantumAnomaly]

Thus, we should sit back, and wait for those changes to hit before we start laying down the nerf hammer.

You continue to miss the points that I and everyone else are trying to convey, and I dont know how else to explain it right now, so I guess I'm done trying for the time being. Enough has been said anyway. I dont mean any ill will or harsh statements, I just dont know how else to describe what I mean to someone who thinks I hate titans and what to nerf them in to oblivion when I'm building a carrier (not a drone carrier, a proper carrier) and fully support everyone's right to do so even if I think that it could be improved.

Also, I STILL think it's healthy to talk about these things now rather than waiting for everything to be finished, when it may be too late to change anything that's been hardcoded. It's why we have brainstorming sessions.

 

[Winterhome]

I have never, ever seen someone use a drone carrier. Not once.

Why? Because you're literally throwing resources away that you'll never get back, and it's an enormous pain in the ass to set up a drone carrier for a single fight, which may or may not go well due to the problem of drones being extremely easy to escape simply by holding the S key and reversing out of the sector. Drones are *only* good in locked arena sectors.

 

[KiloZulu]

I have never, ever seen someone use a drone carrier. Not once.

Why? Because you're literally throwing resources away that you'll never get back, and it's an enormous pain in the ass to set up a drone carrier for a single fight, which may or may not go well due to the problem of drones being extremely easy to escape simply by holding the S key and reversing out of the sector. Drones are *only* good in locked arena sectors.

Yup. I have made a couple of drone carriers, but until they add some AI in for recovering the drones, they will never leave the dock.
[DOUBLEPOST=1434412179,1434411103][/DOUBLEPOST]I'm really at the point in the game where I just don't want to build a ship any larger than I've already done. It's time consuming and boring beyond a certain point. I never encountered an issue when I was playing on a server that used vanilla settings - anything larger than what was needed to tackle a pirate station was considered excessive by the players. Those of us who did make really large ships, as I mentioned in a previous reply, found reasons to regret it with their sluggish maneuverability and lack of practicality.

There should be ramifications to building massive titans. They shouldn't be maneuverable, they should be a logistical nightmare to operate. These aren't penalties or nerfs, they are the simple consequences of their massive size. What I've seen on most public servers has been the opposite of a nerf - an overwhelming buff for massive ships which allows them to ignore their mass and scale. With no down side to building larger, it becomes the only viable ship to build. When I look at the largest ship I've built under vanilla settings and see that it barely registers on the scale of ships used on most servers, it's very disheartening.

 

[Mered4]

Yup. I have made a couple of drone carriers, but until they add some AI in for recovering the drones, they will never leave the dock.
[DOUBLEPOST=1434412179,1434411103][/DOUBLEPOST]I'm really at the point in the game where I just don't want to build a ship any larger than I've already done. It's time consuming and boring beyond a certain point. I never encountered an issue when I was playing on a server that used vanilla settings - anything larger than what was needed to tackle a pirate station was considered excessive by the players. Those of us who did make really large ships, as I mentioned in a previous reply, found reasons to regret it with their sluggish maneuverability and lack of practicality.

There should be ramifications to building massive titans. They shouldn't be maneuverable, they should be a logistical nightmare to operate. These aren't penalties or nerfs, they are the simple consequences of their massive size. What I've seen on most public servers has been the opposite of a nerf - an overwhelming buff for massive ships which allows them to ignore their mass and scale. With no down side to building larger, it becomes the only viable ship to build. When I look at the largest ship I've built under vanilla settings and see that it barely registers on the scale of ships used on most servers, it's very disheartening.

I find it kind of funny that ya'll talk about *most public servers* and still disregard MushroomFleet. Seriously, we don't do any of this silly stuff. Come check us out!

You continue to miss the points that I and everyone else are trying to convey, and I dont know how else to explain it right now, so I guess I'm done trying for the time being. Enough has been said anyway. I dont mean any ill will or harsh statements, I just dont know how else to describe what I mean to someone who thinks I hate titans and what to nerf them in to oblivion when I'm building a carrier (not a drone carrier, a proper carrier) and fully support everyone's right to do so even if I think that it could be improved.

Also, I STILL think it's healthy to talk about these things now rather than waiting for everything to be finished, when it may be too late to change anything that's been hardcoded. It's why we have brainstorming sessions.

If you don't want to make any adjustments to Titans here and now, then I'm in your boat. As with most folks in this community, I believe the future of Starmade is open to interpretation at this point. The only issue I see is the massive amount of disagreement that will be caused if we don't have similar WHYs. I might see Titans as the bedrock of a fleet but not the deciding factor in battles, while you might see Titans as these end-all be-all flying bricks of destruction that rarely appear. We'll conflict every single time and only represent our points of view.

That's why I think I keep misinterpreting Visitor 's posts - I keep seeing his WHY (nerf them so they aren't dominant pls) as an excuse to change the Titans now, in the middle of these content additions and overhauls.

 

[jorgekorke]

To reinforce my point :

Titans are supposed to be something rare - you are supposed to be impressed when you look at one
That does'nt happen today. They are more then common.

 

[Lecic]

I would love if big ships were something the game could truly have. But, there's an issue- although Starmade can handle much bigger ships than other voxel ship games, BIG SHIPS STILL CAUSE LAG. A LOT of lag. Client lag, server lag. Lag isn't fun. I shouldn't need to invest in a super computer to handle some of the massive things people build.

And while massive ships can take time to build, not everyone is building detailed hulls. They're building system bricks that overpower anything on the server besides other system bricks. Example- JoelBrisco's Doomfridges.

 

[Colt556]

I would love if big ships were something the game could truly have. But, there's an issue- although Starmade can handle much bigger ships than other voxel ship games, BIG SHIPS STILL CAUSE LAG. A LOT of lag. Client lag, server lag. Lag isn't fun. I shouldn't need to invest in a super computer to handle some of the massive things people build.

And while massive ships can take time to build, not everyone is building detailed hulls. They're building system bricks that overpower anything on the server besides other system bricks. Example- JoelBrisco's Doomfridges.

That sounds more like an issue with the server, rather than the game. Server admins should put limits and restrictions to prevent lag and doomcubes. If you want a titan you have to show that it's a ship same as any other, and not just a platform to ship systems on. But again, that isn't anything schema could, or should worry about beyond optimizing as much as possible.

 

[Lecic]

That sounds more like an issue with the server, rather than the game.

No, issues with massive ships are a game based issue. It's an inherent issue that larger things will have more lag. You can optimize, but it only goes so far.

 

[Colt556]

No, issues with massive ships are a game based issue. It's an inherent issue that larger things will have more lag. You can optimize, but it only goes so far.

And, again, that's not an issue for the developers. If your server can't handle big ships, limit them. You can't ask the devs to put in hard limits for big ships, the whole point of this game is the freedom to build whatever kind of ship you want, even stupidly big ones.

 

[Visitor]

And, again, that's not an issue for the developers. If your server can't handle big ships, limit them. You can't ask the devs to put in hard limits for big ships, the whole point of this game is the freedom to build whatever kind of ship you want, even stupidly big ones.

I'd like to point out that Lecic doesn't seem to advocate hard limits on size, but mentions the lag problems caused by ships which is a an issue for developers to resolve.

Outside of that, creativity and freedom is important in a game like StarMade, but it never should come at the great sacrifice of balanced, optimized, satisfactory for all parties in the target audience gameplay, like how it is now. Those are issues noticeable even by people who do enjoy piloting/building big ships, I'd like to point out.

Lastly, the performance effect seems to be tangential the best. The main issue again, seems to be general scaling of things like it was repeatedly pointed out already - and that problem is related to constructs of every size, not only the biggest ones (but it is the most glaringly noticeable in case of such because of the nature of said issue, which is the reason why those ships are mentioned the most).

 

[Colt556]

I'd like to point out that Lecic doesn't seem to advocate hard limits on size, but mentions the lag problems caused by ships which is a an issue for developers to resolve.

Outside of that, creativity and freedom is important in a game like StarMade, but it never should come at the great sacrifice of balanced, optimized, satisfactory for all parties in the target audience gameplay, like how it is now. Those are issues noticeable even by people who do enjoy piloting/building big ships, I'd like to point out.

Lastly, the performance effect seems to be tangential the best. The main issue again, seems to be general scaling of things like it was repeatedly pointed out already - and that problem is related to constructs of every size, not only the biggest ones (but it is the most glaringly noticeable in case of such because of the nature of said issue, which is the reason why those ships are mentioned the most).

The lag issues are only the dev's concern insofar as it pertains to optimization. Anything beyond optimization in regards to big ships lagging isn't their concern, because there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[Stakhanov]

Lag is mostly a symptom that people go for the biggest because it's best.

People overthink this issue , there are 2 very simple options to encourage players to fly small and medium mass ships :

1) Get rid of effective invulnerability from shield regen in combat , so that several small ships could realistically defeat larger ones.
2) Scale max velocity with mass , giving smaller ships the ability to chase and pin larger ones , or retreat from unwinnable fights.

Drones will need their own balancing , but at least this would give some use to multiple ship sizes , for interception or damage.

 

[Knack]

1) Get rid of effective invulnerability from shield regen in combat , so that several small ships could realistically defeat larger ones.

No, why should we do that?
Seriously, why should any small fighter be able to destroy a much bigger ship?
Use small Ships in a higher number and all is fine. The shield regeneration goes on cost of powerrecharge and mass that you could spend for other things.

That is no invulnerability, it is just a modifier on your ship. Aggainst other big ships with high first strike, it is much better to use more shield caps, aggainst a drone swarm, it is bette to have mor recharge.

Each ship has its role.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Like Knack said. Although, I wouldn't be against a system to bypass a ships shields (ie the closer you are to a target) assuming the following systems where in place: convenient repair, better turret AI, better AI for support ships like interceptors, a HP and armour system that works well.

And as far scaling etc I would say that's an issue of there not being much to do in the game as of yet.

 

[Visitor]

The lag issues are only the dev's concern insofar as it pertains to optimization. Anything beyond optimization in regards to big ships lagging isn't their concern, because there's nothing they can do about it.

Balance of mechanics is also dev's concern. Most groups on most servers go in the direction of bigger vessels not half as much because of RP or aesthetic factor as because said vessels are far better when it comes to risk/price vs profit./advantage ratio. That should be balanced so increase of ship's size will be a viable direction leading to certain advantages but not undoubtedly best and freely available choice in majority of cases.

 

[Colt556]

Balance of mechanics is also dev's concern. Most groups on most servers go in the direction of bigger vessels not half as much because of RP or aesthetic factor as because said vessels are far better when it comes to risk/price vs profit./advantage ratio. That should be balanced so increase of ship's size will be a viable direction leading to certain advantages but not undoubtedly best and freely available choice in majority of cases.

Eh... the only thing they can do on that front is add soft-caps to make big ships harder to maintain and add better drone AI. A small ship shouldn't beat a big one, people often complain about that but deal with it. My 500k mass ship shouldn't lose to your 50k mass ship. Now bring 500k mass spread across 50 small ships and yeah, sure, you can win. But as tested drone swarms of less total mass can kill big ships, so that's already pretty much working as it should.

People go for big ships because they are the best, they always will be the best, and they always SHOULD be the best. If you have the time and resources to make a big ship there's really no reason not to, and there shouldn't be a reason not to. The most the devs should ever do is, as I said, add things to maintenance such as fuel so it takes dedicated logistics to keep them running. But if you have a faction capable of keeping their fleet of titans supplied, they have no reason not to spam em. That's just how life works.

 

[Stakhanov]

Use small Ships in a higher number and all is fine.

This is the kind of flawed thinking that prevents any progress in game balance.

The number of active players in a faction cannot be expected to scale with the size of ships they'd have to kill , if they were to use small ships.
Small ships have no shield regeneration and so even a large group will always die before they have any chance to break through a titan's shield.
That mechanic alone makes small ships not viable.

There's no good reason that a titan with no mass dedicated to fighter defense should be invulnerable to them. If they are , what's the point of the game ? Stockpile blocks until you can build a bigger ship ? Is that all there is to it ?

This is supposed to be a multiplayer game. That means giving a chance to the opposition. You can refine your designs to minimize that chance , but don't ask for the game to keep giving you free wins , as it does now. Otherwise , it'll turn singleplayer very fast.