Gigantism

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    No, I do not want fuel into the game. It would only add horrible micro and it would also make it harder for the AI to work properly without cheating.
    Instead of immediately bucking the idea of fuel, you should really read the thread here which has quite a few interesting and new ideas on the subject, which are likely drastically different from what you may think of it as if you think it's only going to cripple AI and add significant micro to the game.
     
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    Like the OP said, think about what's good for the whole game, not just your own agenda.
    Heresy! All of your opinions are wrong!! Now I shall show you why by straw-manning your entire argument!
    /sarcasm
     
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    What if...jump drives didn't work on ships above a certain mass? When I think of titans, I envision slow, plodding, dreadnoughts of doom that are able to control whatever sector they're in - like mobile space stations.
     
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    What if...jump drives didn't work on ships above a certain mass? When I think of titans, I envision slow, plodding, dreadnoughts of doom that are able to control whatever sector they're in - like mobile space stations.
    If they ever do the capital ship update, it will be akin to just that, sort of.
     
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    If they ever do the capital ship update, it will be akin to just that, sort of.
    I seriously hope that if jumping away is not an option, there's suitable bonuses to counter it. Also I hope some of those bonuses are added to regular stations.

    Imagine trying to do anything with a titan if a couple of smaller drone carriers could just hop in, unload drones and hop out to reload or switch ships? Or any other scenario where single, even if oversized ship can't do anything to prevent its destruction. That generally sucks... of course you could argue titans should have escorts like big naval ships have.

    The main issue (to me) is that making specialised designs is generally not useful. Not much point leaving out a salvage array from a warship, and not much point not to shield and arm a salvager, for example. Sure, mass has an effect but it's often negligible.
     
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    Big ships should NOT be the best for every single situation! That isn't fun for anyone who doesn't have the biggest ships on the server, because it means that the one who does CAN and WILL kick their ass into nothingness. Does that sound like an enjoyable game that people stick around in long?

    Big ships should be powerful, simply by virtue of their massive amounts of systems. That doesn't mean they should be the be all, end all for everything except mining and scouting.

    My solution to big ships being the be all, end all, is this- maintenance costs, and a need for crew with maintenance as well. Basic costs could go one of two ways- fuel, or repairs. Fuel has already been massively discussed, but I just want to point out that unequally spread out sources of fuel (ice planets, gas giants, etc) would give people a reason to hold and conquer extra territory.

    The other way maintenance costs could work is that systems on a ship get slowly damaged when they're in use, requiring you to repair them at a shipyard, which costs capsules. Larger ships have a higher capsule cost to maintain, so people are less likely to use them for every single thing.

    As for crew, I think for a large ship to function at maximum efficiency, it should need crew (either player or AI controlled) running some things. Crew would need things like a bed, food (farmable plants and meat from creatures, perhaps?), sleep (multiple sets of crew working on shifts for the best efficiency), and recreational areas. Crew can man systems (fixed weapons, shields, power, passive effects, thrust, etc) as well as remotely control turrets for better accuracy and tracking than BobbyAI. Crew would have maintenance costs due to the need for food, medical supplies if they get injured, and of course, a paycheck.



    Sure, as long as you're locked into a sector. Otherwise, you've just got a bunch of drones floating around in the sector you left them in after your enemy flies away from the drones/jumps out. Sure, you'll be able to recollect them eventually, but once you recollect them and find the enemy and drop the drones again, what do they do? They just flee again. Because no one in their right mind fights drones, because drones will wreck them.
    You're pretty much restating what I said while disagreeing with me. When resources aren't an issue there is no reason not to use the biggest strongest option available. Real life has shown this to us routinely. There's a reason prior to WW2 dreadnoughts were spammed and were symbols of power, and when resources permitted they were used. There's a reason even today the US has a massive fleet of super carriers and uses them extensively. In fact the only reason ships other than battleships and carriers exist is because of resource limitations. No nation has the resources to make hundreds of battleships and you need hundreds of ships to put them where they need to be, thus cheaper alternatives are required.

    As it stands resources aren't really an issue, thus there's no reason not to use the biggest ship available because that ship IS, and SHOULD BE, the best option for whatever it is you wanna do that's combat related. If the US didn't have to worry about resources you can bet your pretty pink ass they'd send nothing but Nimitz' to deal with situations. That's just how life works. That is also why I routinely advocate for limitations to be focused on things surrounding the titan rather than the titan itself. A titan should be invulnerable to a small ship. It should be able to solo entire fleets. When in direct combat the titan does not need any nerfs, and small ships do not need buffs. What we need is systems outside of combat that limit them. Just as how the US didn't have battleships at every single battle in WW2, so too should we not have titans at every single battle and that's because resource wise they're hard to not only build, but maintain.

    So, to restate, you're arguing with me while simultaneously agreeing with me.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1434515987,1434515934][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Colt556, please, before replying - spend some time checking the thread and reading my and many others' stance because it seems you present opinions which not only were already discussed, repeatedly, but also do not - sans the extreme degree you take them to - oppose what many of us are saying in this thread. With the exception of your 'always' since personally, I think that in certain roles like scouting, exploration, dogfighting or courier runs big ships should do worse nor should they easily - without risking noticeable damage repairing of which would cost something - shrug off attacks of anything beside other sizeable constructs.

    Hell, since I understand you may not have much free time, I'll summarize above points even though it may be taken as rude that you actually took part in the discussion while basing your standpoint on the wobbly premise having little to do with what was underlined as a problem:




    Most of us here don't claim that small ship should beat big one just like that. Nor we want to deny superiority (at least in straight 'slugfest' combat, which is nearly - beside mining/scavenging - the only gameplay aspect involving piloting so far) of big ships. Many of us do actually enjoy the idea of great, big vessel as testaments to guts, power and engineering aptitude.

    If you'd be so kind as to pay attention, the issue raised here has to do with the fact that efficiency of the gradually bigger ships/systems rises disproportionately to demands of ingenuity, costs and risks involved, while also providing efficiency in every field, allowing little to no space for alternatives, actual smart design (the difference of shoving ion computer or some such somewhere into free space doesn't make the design of the whole ship suddenly ingenious) and, funnily enough, creativity (I find it funny because too often 'creativity' is a word people trying to maintain dependance on gigantism hide behind) as in competitive play, to have better results, no matter the endeavor, one is forced to get bigger ship which is simply disappointing.


    Fuel, as mentioned in one or two posts above, is one of the features that could potentially help manage the issue. Probably insufficient on its own to do so, but a thing worth considering as a part of bigger effort.
    You seem to think someone chiming in with an "I agree" warrants a massive post such as yours. It does not.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1434516140][/DOUBLEPOST]
    No, I do not want fuel into the game. It would only add horrible micro and it would also make it harder for the AI to work properly without cheating.
    Fuel is the single best option available for limiting big ships. The bigger the ship, the more fuel it needs. This is what limits big ships in real life. You simply can't afford to run those big ships so you make smaller ones to fill the gaps. I find notions of "horrible micro" to be absurd since that's the entire point. If you want a big titan, prepare to grind to try and keep it running. Don't like that idea? Don't make the titan. The ENTIRE POINT of fuel is to be an unpleasant thing that turns people away from making huge ships. If you don't want to deal with that "horrible micro" then stick to small ships since giant titans clearly aren't for you. As for the AI, not hard to add ways to refuel them when they're docked.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1434516459][/DOUBLEPOST]
    What if...jump drives didn't work on ships above a certain mass? When I think of titans, I envision slow, plodding, dreadnoughts of doom that are able to control whatever sector they're in - like mobile space stations.
    Personally I think it should be the opposite. I think ships below a certain mass shouldn't be able to jump, they should rely on a network of warpgates to get around the colonized universe. But it shouldn't be because of some hard limits, it's because below that mass threshold you simply can't generate the power required to jump the ship. Some certain extreme designs may be able to get a smaller ship able to jump, but usually only big capital ships would be able to jump. Having small ships rely on jumpgates or bigger ships would be cool in my eyes.
     
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    When resources aren't an issue there is no reason not to use the biggest strongest option available.
    As it stands resources aren't really an issue, thus there's no reason not to use the biggest ship available because that ship IS, and SHOULD BE, the best option for whatever it is you wanna do that's combat related.
    Glad you're catching up to what is actually one of the sources of the problem as quite a few of us see here - that it is very easy to field and maintain such ships for what benefits they provide. Related to that is the issue of 'do-or-die' where usually big ships either overcome their enemies sustaining only superficial damage or get destroyed.

    As you yourself were fond of relating to the IRL (questionable because sci-fi spaceships aren't forced to follow the same rules, but good enough for the sake of illustration), I point out that often battleships and carriers weren't used simply because after earlier engagements they were in need of repairs and ressuplying, despite fighting smaller opponents. Also, small ships or planes had role in the period of time you've described, also in battle, as quick-response units that usually took less time to deploy.

    Right now the only case when actual considerable damage happens is when 'smaller opponents' are a big horde often nearing the total mass of one big ship (drones launched by carriers) and even that usually comes at considerable sacrifice of numerous ships before the bigger ship goes down (which is actually fair).

    You seem to think someone chiming in with an "I agree" warrants a massive post such as yours. It does not.
    You seem to think that making assumptions regarding me instead of addressing content of my post is sufficient to explain or defend your previous assertions. It is not. Quoting a post just to state so is somewhat rude and unwarranted, though.

    No, I do not want fuel into the game. It would only add horrible micro and it would also make it harder for the AI to work properly without cheating.
    Regarding fuel, I don't think it'd be necessarily a 'horrible micro' - it depends how it'd be managed. Balancing the fuel to be rare but long-lasting or making it very common but expensive would be enough (or, ideally - long-lasting, common BUT expensive) - provided that the economy and how easy it is to become rich would also be adjusted - would help here. One could just top off the tank for a small fortune and not worry about fuel for a long while. If people want to scale costs and risks and manage how much they fuel each ship depending on where it is to fly and how likely it is to explode, they can micromanage - but then it's an option they willingly choose.

    Also, as per mentioned before fuel survey thread, there are other ways to make fuel manageable and not so bothersome - from making fuel-dependant engines not required by every type of ship (scaling requirements for thrust with mass, for example, with several types of propulsion offering only so much of it) to adjusting the sources and ways to obtain the fuel.
     
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    Glad you're catching up to what is actually one of the sources of the problem as quite a few of us see here - that it is very easy to field and maintain such ships for what benefits they provide. Related to that is the issue of 'do-or-die' where usually big ships either overcome their enemies sustaining only superficial damage or get destroyed.

    As you yourself were fond of relating to the IRL (questionable because sci-fi spaceships aren't forced to follow the same rules, but good enough for the sake of illustration), I point out that often battleships and carriers weren't used simply because after earlier engagements they were in need of repairs and ressuplying, despite fighting smaller opponents. Also, small ships or planes had role in the period of time you've described, also in battle, as quick-response units that usually took less time to deploy.

    Right now the only case when actual considerable damage happens is when 'smaller opponents' are a big horde often nearing the total mass of one big ship (drones launched by carriers) and even that usually comes at considerable sacrifice of numerous ships before the bigger ship goes down (which is actually fair).


    You seem to think that making assumptions regarding me instead of addressing content of my post is sufficient to explain or defend your previous assertions. It is not. Quoting a post just to state so is somewhat rude and unwarranted, though.



    Regarding fuel, I don't think it'd be necessarily a 'horrible micro' - it depends how it'd be managed. Balancing the fuel to be rare but long-lasting or making it very common but expensive would be enough (or, ideally - long-lasting, common BUT expensive) - provided that the economy and how easy it is to become rich would also be adjusted - would help here. One could just top off the tank for a small fortune and not worry about fuel for a long while. If people want to scale costs and risks and manage how much they fuel each ship depending on where it is to fly and how likely it is to explode, they can micromanage - but then it's an option they willingly choose.
    The problem is you're being condescending with comments like "you're finally catching up" and then write a long post which can be summed up "I know you're just saying you agree but I'm gonna chastise you and explain why it is you should agree"

    Literally everything you said I already covered and addressed in my very first post and said "this is what needs to be done", so yeah my point stands. Just because someone chimes in with an "I agree" doesn't warrant long condescending posts. It's pretty much universally accepted that Titans shouldn't be nerfed directly, but indirectly through maintenance costs and resource costs. Everyone knows this, everyone agrees with it. So all you're really gonna get in these threads are people like me chiming in with an elongated "I agree". And that simply does not warrant the type of response you are giving.
     
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    The problem is you're being condescending with comments like "you're finally catching up" and then write a long post which can be summed up "I know you're just saying you agree but I'm gonna chastise you and explain why it is you should agree"
    If you do believe I am condescending, my apologies - but do point out what problem you have with what you actually have a problem with so I can explain what made me write what I did, instead of just addressing a post to make somewhat rude remarks.

    Now, regarding 'I am gonna agree but' it's because I do not agree with everything. I know that people get personally invested but I don't write these things just to prove you're wrong or right - I bet both you and I have better things to do than to prove superiority to some random stranger we're likely never to meet.
    I do point out what I agree with and why - but also have to, both for the sake fairness and adjusting presented ideas, point out what is the potential issue, why it may be an issue, where I'd find logic flawed and so on, presenting arguments and alternatives at the same time. That's, I believe, how actual debate/discussion should go, especially if it is to serve improvement of some mechanics or feature rather than just squabbling. I don't see how making it personal would help anyone.
     
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    If you do believe I am condescending, my apologies - but do point out what problem you have with what you actually have a problem with so I can explain what made me write what I did, instead of just addressing a post to make somewhat rude remarks.

    Now, regarding 'I am gonna agree but' it's because I do not agree with everything. I know that people get personally invested but I don't write these things just to prove you're wrong or right - I bet both you and I have better things to do than to prove superiority to some random stranger we're likely never to meet.
    I do point out what I agree with and why - but also have to, both for the sake fairness and adjusting presented ideas, point out what is the potential issue, why it may be an issue, where I'd find logic flawed and so on, presenting arguments and alternatives at the same time. That's, I believe, how actual debate/discussion should go, especially if it is to serve improvement of some mechanics or feature rather than just squabbling. I don't see how making it personal would help anyone.
    You have yet to write a single thing that disagrees with what I've said, and that's why I'm taking issue with your posts. You're trying to argue with someone when both parties are in full agreement.
     
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    You have yet to write a single thing that disagrees with what I've said, and that's why I'm taking issue with your posts. You're trying to argue with someone when both parties are in full agreement.
    But both parties are not in full agreement - devil's in the detail.

    In regards to the post you've quoted just to claim I am basically agreeing with you, I wrote what I did not for the sake of you seeing how I agree, but because you were giving an impression that the discussion is about people wanting to have big ships succumb easily to single, small opponents and because while I agree that big ships should come with certain advantages, I disagree they should be absolutely best at everything just because of their size. Then, I've mentioned posts about fuel in mention how I don't think that should be the only mechanics change/feature from ones mention in this thread.

    Hopefully that will explain why I wrote what I did and underline, for your convenience, bits that actually I didn't agree with. Should there be any inconsistencies or other problems regarding the content of my posts that you'd like to address off-topic, feel free to contact me privately.
     
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    But both parties are not in full agreement - devil's in the detail.

    In regards to the post you've quoted just to claim I am basically agreeing with you, I wrote what I did not for the sake of you seeing how I agree, but because you were giving an impression that the discussion is about people wanting to have big ships succumb easily to single, small opponents and because while I agree that big ships should come with certain advantages, I disagree they should be absolutely best at everything just because of their size. Then, I've mentioned posts about fuel in mention how I don't think that should be the only mechanics change/feature from ones mention in this thread.

    Hopefully that will explain why I wrote what I did and underline, for your convenience, bits that actually I didn't agree with. Should there be any inconsistencies or other problems regarding the content of my posts that you'd like to address off-topic, feel free to contact me privately.
    Nobody said fuel should be the ONLY limiter, the point is some kind of maintenance/logistics is required so that operating a big ship requires some hefty effort. And when it comes to combat, if you can field a titan there really isn't a reason not to. No smaller ship will do what a titan can do when it comes to combat, so yeah they are the be all end all for fighting. The only reason you'd use smaller ships is because you can't afford to use the big guns, aka exact like real life.

    You are, as I've said, not actually disagreeing with me. I honestly don't know why you seem to think you are. Small ships have their place because of resources, since resources aren't balanced yet small ships don't have a place. Fix resources, fix gigantism, there really isn't anything beyond that.
     
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    You've addressed the fuel, great you did clear the misunderstanding and the impression you consider it a lone way to fix the issue. That was one thing I actually did disagree with. Now, for the sake of ensuring that indeed we do agree I'd like you to actually address rest of the post you yourself just quoted, including what capabilities of big ships should be.

    Other than that I point out, like I wrote before, big part of the post is expressing my thoughts on certain ideas raised, including my doubts and explanations how one could go about some things. I don't know why do you treat the whole of my posting as an attempt at disagreeing with you just because you are quoted here and there.
     
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    You've addressed the fuel, great you did clear the misunderstanding and the impression you consider it a lone way to fix the issue. That was one thing I actually did disagree with. Now, for the sake of ensuring that indeed we do agree I'd like you to actually address rest of the post you yourself just quoted, including what capabilities of big ships should be.

    Other than that I point out, like I wrote before, big part of the post is expressing my thoughts on certain ideas raised, including my doubts and explanations how one could go about some things. I don't know why do you treat the whole of my posting as an attempt at disagreeing with you just because you are quoted here and there.
    There are very, very few things a smaller vessel can do better than a larger one. Literally the only reason small ships exist in real life is because of money, yeah a larger ship may do it better but it's not worth it for how much it'd cost to run. There's really nothing in this game that a small ship would be better than a large ship. Exploration? Bigger ships means bigger/more sensors, as well as more supplies for longer trips. Combat? A big ship means loads of shields and weapons, can't beat that. Mining? Bigger ship, more gets harvested in one go and more can be stored before having to return home.

    It's for that very reason that the only way to limit big ships is via resources, making them hard to build and hard to maintain. Because once you remove resources from the equation there simply is no reason not to use a big ship. Again, that's just life for you. Remove resources and you'd see pretty much every ship on earth being the size of a container ship. Simply because there's no reason to use smaller if you don't have resources to worry about.
     
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    Literally the only reason small ships exist in real life is because of money
    To be honest, I wouldn't find it much unrealistic for smaller ships to be better as couriers (less mass to shuffle around, general mobility), stealth reconnaissance (smaller signature, less noticeable energy etc emission) - substituting reconnaissance reasons for 'better ability to use terrain for concealment' those are the reasons why small units (and sometimes even infantry instead of mechanised units) are actually favored for such kind of jobs IRL.

    I agree with the fact that bigger is better in this game for everything - that was pointed out long time ago - but I don't see how the fact that big ships are better at everything make resources the only viable way of scaling them. In fact, I don't think it is - proper curve in efficiency of systems so at certain points even bigger gun/engine/whatever will drain so much energy it will be fight uphill to keep investing in their size and there will be only so much HP to be squeezed from hull and other systems before the sheer bulk will start dragging mobility sharply down are options I find as worth consideration. That's why average navy creates ships of particular size instead of making them even bigger - technological infeasibility, not just resource shortcomings. That taking more advanced features (but also worth consideration further down the development lane) like boarding parties and sabotage out.

    Beside the things I've regarded now or before in this thread, we do agree.
     
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    To be honest, I wouldn't find it much unrealistic for smaller ships to be better as couriers (less mass to shuffle around, general mobility), stealth reconnaissance (smaller signature, less noticeable energy etc emission) - substituting reconnaissance reasons for 'better ability to use terrain for concealment' those are the reasons why small units (and sometimes even infantry instead of mechanised units) are actually favored for such kind of jobs IRL.

    I agree with the fact that bigger is better in this game for everything - that was pointed out long time ago - but I don't see how the fact that big ships are better at everything make resources the only viable way of scaling them. In fact, I don't think it is - proper curve in efficiency of systems so at certain points even bigger gun/engine/whatever will drain so much energy it will be fight uphill to keep investing in their size and there will be only so much HP to be squeezed from hull and other systems before the sheer bulk will start dragging mobility sharply down are options I find as worth consideration. That's, again, why average navy creates ships of particular size instead of making them even bigger - technological infeasibility. That taking more advanced features (but also worth consideration further down the development lane) like boarding parties and sabotage out.

    Beside the things I've regarded now or before in this thread, we do agree.
    You can't compare ground operations to naval operations, space ships are just that, ships. All you're doing is replacing water with vacuum. And when it comes to the navy, there's nothing small ships do better. Couriers? Just call them up, this aint the age of sail after all. Stealth? Submarines are the stealthiest ships on earth and they're also some of the largest, hell even surface ships like destroyers employ stealth despite being 100-200 meters long. Recon is done via radar/sonar (much like our sensors) and so the size of the ship really doesn't matter.

    Taking all that into the game, couriers don't exist, titans can have jammers fitted to them just fine, and we use sensors for recon. As I said, there's nothing a small ship can do better than a big ship. Cheaper? Sure. Better? Nope.

    You mention the navy making ships of a certain size due to technological infeasibility. That ALREADY exists in starmade. There's a reason most 'titans' are around 1-2km at most. Because beyond that we just can't go that big. So there already is a soft-cap in place. Arbitrary nerfs like making them less efficient is silly, and unrealistic and illogical. A Nimitz class super carrier is over 300 meters long, yet it can run non-stop for decades before having to be refueled. How long can your honda civic go without refueling? Size often times opens up efficiency, not limit it.

    If you have a big ship, it should be better than a smaller ship for pretty much everything. But being good at everything has a price, so if you want that big fancy titan you better enjoy keeping it fueled and maintained. Any direct nerfs to big ships is completely unjustified and would serve no purpose in the wake of better alternatives.
     
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    If a ship is backpedaling but has a limited cone of fire, you can still dodge its forward batteries, which is the way it should be. You should NOT have to be almost behind a ship to avoid its fire.
    This is a misconception I have disproved long ago , as long as ships can match each other's speed they will always be able to face each other , no matter how slowly : http://oldsite.star-made.org/content/vector-analysis-tactical-situations-starmade
    Strafing really doesn't help when chasing or being chased.
     
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    So, one minor thing that I would like to point out, that exists in real life but is not an issue in starmade, is terrain. In the real world, you wont see an aircraft carrier on a river, because the size of the river is a limiting factor.

    In space, there's no terrain, there's not even an issue landing a titan on a planet (except lag of course). This limiting factor plays a HUGE role in real combat, and so does fuel. If you dont have the fuel to get to your target, you wont be getting there without a resupply, no questions asked. There are some nuclear-powered ships of course (with some of the HIGHEST fuel costs regardless of how long it lasts), but they have their own maintenance costs in terms of crew, supplies, retrofits, etc, to stay up to date with the latest technology.
     

    jorgekorke

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    All those talks are leading to .... nowhere. All I see is a hundred of fallacies, from both parties, so how about changing the method ?

    -> Problem
    |-------------------------> Big ships are the answer for everything
    -> Why is that a problem ?
    |-------------------------> Snowballing : The game, instead of encouraging things like a standardized fleet, encourages too much the action of throwing all the resources on one single ship, making a titan, because it's very less likely to die, and more likely to beat others with ease.

    This becomes what I call the "titan snowball" , because player A is doing this. Player B in order to not be easily destroyed, will do the same thing. Look at the situation, player C has no option other then doing that too.
    This is Starmade's current meta.

    Now, if nerfing them are "silly" , tell me a better solution for that. Because this meta is unhealthy as fuck, be it to clients, be it to servers.
     
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    I'm actually in a favour of a couple of minor nerfs, just to make combat a little more interesting. First one should be solved by the thruster change when that happens. Second one is to make shields less effective, especially for turrets. Makes having an escort and effective defence essential (of course I would hold off on this until there's a less tedious way to repair, shipyards should do the trick here).

    What I would rather have though, are "buffs" for smaller ships, like AI fleet coordination, improved radar mechanics (bigger ships show up much further away so you can't use them for jumps), quicker comparative top speed (which should again be solved by the thruster overhaul). Actual boarding mechanics would be nice as well. I don't really think there should be a penalty for using a bigger ship, you've already gone through the effort of mining up literal millions of crystals and ores to put the thing together, adding more time to grind out fuel etc on top of that is just unnecessary, especially when they're already not cost effective compared to several smaller ships.. What there should be though, is risk of actually losing it to along with the benefits it entails.