Gigantism

    jorgekorke

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    I laughed at the hostility towards a "buddy group" on OP. Whoever they are...
    And mind you, Gigantism does not cause only client-side problems that I've mentioned before, but are also related to the 40% of the server problems (other 40% are caused by planet-mining). It's not that Titans are the new Satan, but it's just the fact that Starmade is not ready for titans due to lack of optimization.
    If you enjoy those server crashes and "not responding" moments, well, that's your problem.
     
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    I laughed at the hostility towards a "buddy group" on OP. Whoever they are...
    And mind you, Gigantism does not cause only client-side problems that I've mentioned before, but are also related to the 40% of the server problems (other 40% are caused by planet-mining). It's not that Titans are the new Satan, but it's just the fact that Starmade is not ready for titans due to lack of optimization.
    If you enjoy those server crashes and "not responding" moments, well, that's your problem.
    This is exactly why it should be up to server admins. Server-configurable, sure, to take the stress of of an admin needing to patrol and delete whatever ship size exceeds their limits, but no default in-game limits. I will always side on creativity, but I do think it should be up to the admins what they want happening on their server. Who knows, someone might start a small scale server, where ship limits are 300^3 in length or something, where battleships are considered "titans", and if that's where you want to play that's your choice.
     
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    A bit of disclaimer - I don't have problem with existence of big ships. The problem me and quite a few other players I know of that supposedly are against 'gigantism' doesn't lie in the big ships themselves but in the flaws of mechanics and balance that force player to create such with no alternative and hardly any cost if they want to achieve certain levels of efficiency.

    Frikkin wall of text, ahoy.
    Seriously, gonna be rambling now.
    Those of you who know me (or simply scrolled through) know I can ramble a lot, even if it does make sense at times.
    You were warned.


    I understand OP's arguments and he raises some good points, but being concerned about disparity from the standpoint of balance of costs and profits rather than power between ships of varied sizes, which only seems to be uncommon perspective (or so I hope, because hating big ships just because they're 'bik and stronk' is slightly silly), I note a few issues.

    In fact, successfully detailing and building a detailed and efficient large vessel is a difficult challenge that takes more time and effort than any other singular act in Starmade.
    It's not the case! Yes, I agree that building big ships take longer but most people do that bit as an entertaining part of the gameplay, a fun in itself. It isn't (and, to be honest - for the sake of gameplay, shouldn't) be any hardship nor it in any way makes up for the increased stats and overall efficiency of a ship - it shouldn't be even worth mentioning since building stuff is by design part of the entertainment and a goal of the game. And even if by some horrible decision it would be a gigantic effort and bothersome hardship, so far, on most servers it's a matter of building one such vessel, saving the blueprint and then spawning more for easily acquirable funds.

    Generally, I only address it because I see some people actually using that as an argument.

    The problem I have with the big ships personally and one of the most horrible failures of StarMade when it comes to balance for now is that the design itself is not a problem. Aside from the matter of time addressed above, the matter of resource/credits acquisition is trivial. Average player who just became acquainted with basics of the game without diving into intricaties of it can easily acquire cash to build humongous megaships in a matter of hours on most servers using default values. With strip-mining of whole planets and veritable treasure troves on pirate stations that without overtly much effort can set up a single player for the length of his whole gameplay, acquiring all the funds needed to build such a ship is too easy. Even if one cannot undertake every profitable occupation or doesn't have any good source of income nearby, it's very easy to travel elsewhere or acquire huge donation (when multiplayer) from others since credits are so common people can share and produce more very easily.

    Think 'everyone gets millions of dollars, but without inflation and with infinite supply of goods at frozen prices'. On top of that, once initial expenses of acquiring a vessel are covered, there are absolutely no drawbacks and nearly only profits. There's no necessary maintenance, glaring flaws requiring average cruiser to employ other support vessels, constant drain on any kind of resource. Each and every well-designed ship is completely independent, defying atrophy and without need for any skills or supply, eternally useful item. The only costs are when said ship is employed against opponent of similar or greater firepower - which, using OPs argument about size limiting capabilities - means most likely another huge ship or weapon platform. Creating or overcoming of which also does not drain any finite resources that cannot be replenished.

    In fact the only resource I'd consider finite in multiplayer where fleets of huge ships fight is players - which actually encourages building huge ships because there's far more resources than available pilots and its obvious one wants to provide each pilot with as powerful vessel as possible.

    Which facts lead to vicious cycle where everyone is sooner or later building a big ship and maintaining (though there's no real maintenance) a big ship and anyone wanting to be a valid competition has to do this since everyone else will do so too.

    After that, there's a matter of complexity of design. Both argument for and against kind of bother me here:
    1) Building a bigger ship to beat out your opponent with a *normal* ship is lazy and you should just build a *better* ship of the same size to kill him.

    Look, I hear this one a LOT. And there's a simple counter argument - if both ship's builders are NOT incompetent, their ships will always be around the same level of performance.
    The fact that there's easily achievable upper limit of efficiency when it comes to ships of certain size is actually a separate problem, lying in the fact that ships can be overall death-machines with no decent specialisation that isn't reminding one of playing rock-paper-scissors (and honestly, we didn't even reach that level since currently it all bogs down to piling up enough power gen, shield and weapon blocks in absolutely every design). I am not surprised nor can fairly criticize people who build big ships for increased efficiency, since it is reasonable. The fact that it is how people have to play to increase the efficiency is a problem.

    In other words, what bothers me, in relation to that, that again, there's no reasonable price for the rise in quality. I do agree with OP that it should be about skill of both the builder and the pilot, but that should apply no matter if the ship is small or big. Currently, all ships, no matter external aesthetics are just piles of cubes taking into consideration only scaling of power of each subsystem. You can get bog-standard, stereotypical but functional frigate, enlarge it 10 times and get average in capabilities battlecruiser.

    Sure, people claim that mass of a single huge ship divided into dozens of small ones will result in said dozens winning. But it's hardly argument that I can find of value. The fact is that we both play and judge the balance from the standpoint of player's actions and average player will pilot one ship. He won't make a deal with some other player during PvP stating 'oh, your ship is so big, let me do magic and temporarily divide into 30 buddies in fighters so we will total in mass to similar to that of your ship'. Every player will want their single ship to be as powerful as possible and won't give a crap about hypothetical 30 clones that - if existing - would allow him victory even if they'd pilot some small fighters.

    The argument is naive given current economy - provided you will have those 30 buddies, guess what - they won't have a gentleman's deal with every big ship's pilot, asking to get their stats beforehand so they can divide it among themselves. No, each one of them will get a huge ship to not have just a slight edge but completely eradicate their opponents. It's simply logical. The fact is that there's no practical constraint since it's capable pilots that are limited resource, not ship parts, so no one will be dividing themselves into smaller units.

    'But drones win every time!' one may claim. Well, and guess what - heavier, bigger drones will win more. Especially when deployed from bigger carriers. 'Turrets wreck everything!' - those can also be built on big carriers. Carriers deploying sizeable drones with turrets. No ceiling here beside a few caps, server/client performance and building crap till it becomes too boring to matter.

    So, again, the problem isn't in the fact that there are big ships or in the fact that those ships can do a lot. The problem is that all of that comes at almost no price - big ships can do a lot but don't require a lot. They don't require much of intelligence in design in comparison with building average small ships, they don't come with shortcomings or flaws that would encourage diversity in function and tactics. All the ships, in all size categories battle, mine and travel in exactly the same way, without requiring additional crews, finite resources etc. And if bigger does it all better, players who want to do as good as possible go for that.

    There are people who dislike big ships because such destroy them or because they simply want to play with small ships. To be honest, I also prefer flying well-designed, but small and cozy ships - but that shouldn't be argument for forcing people to my or anyone else's playstyle. Those who actually aren't selfish, I want to believe, oppose gigantism because it's simply unbalanced and the only effective way of doing things - which is a sad thing and quite a waste of potential while being a destructive trend that goes over what some players, no matter their feelings, are able to play with because of their hardware limitations. That's why we also get an influx of suggestions which don't fight the idea of big ships as much as their unquestionable supremacy in every situation with no unavoidable downsides - things like life support, crews, boarding or scaling of damage/shields/armor so big ships will win but be crippled enough to require expensive repairs at the price of victory.

    Personally, I'd find a huge ship something really cool if it'd deserve it - if it would really be a proof of someone's ingenuity and resourcefulness, a really rare achievement, testament to dedication, teamwork and vision rather than absolute standard for everyone - because the risks and constant price of having such a ship in comparison to its effectiveness wouldn't be something average player would go for. While it makes hardly a good argument, right now I understand people who say that big ships are boring - because outside of looks, mechanics-wise no matter what we fly, we fly the same thing at different points on the same scale where bigger is better, and only slightly harder to get and as easy to maintain as 'small'.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    Visitor, you just summed up the exact problem I have with big ships too. The issue isn't that 'big ships' exist, or that they're powerful, it's that in this game, they're just... ships. Not big ships, not particularly unusual, powerful, or dangerous ships compared to most in the game, not even valuable ships by most people's standards. They're... just ships. And they're entirely the wrong scale for that sort of thing.
     
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    Keptick

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    I'd just like to ask... what do people consider "huge" ships??? Because I've read multiple times that huge ships are easy to manufacture and produce, but that really depends on just how "huge" it is.

    Anything above 1km long that isn't a blob is NOT a walk in the park, especially not during the building phase. Just look at the amount of 1km+ projects that have been abandonned, the ratio of completed ships to abandonned is pretty catastrophic. Again, I'm not taking blobs and half-assed ships into account here.

    My point is that "huge" and "giant" are extremely vague terms when it comes to ship sizes in this game, and have different significations for everyone.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    I'd just like to ask... what do people consider "huge" ships??? Because I've read multiple times that huge ships are easy to manufacture and produce, but that really depends on just how "huge" it is.

    Anything above 1km long that isn't a blob is NOT a walk in the park, especially not during the building phase. Just look at the amount of 1km+ projects that have been abandonned, the ratio of completed ships to abandonned is pretty catastrophic. Again, I'm not taking blobs and half-assed ships into account here.

    My point is that "huge" and "giant" are extremely vague terms when it comes to ship sizes in this game, and have different significations for everyone.
    My definition is anything over, eh, 700-750 km. Even larger sizes have been trivialized by power-gaming doomcube builders, though. A discussion about balance doesn't take into account the effort required to build a good-looking ship, because it will perform the same as, if not worse than, a blob/brick of the same mass.
     

    Keptick

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    My definition is anything over, eh, 700-750 km. Even larger sizes have been trivialized by power-gaming doomcube builders, though.
    Alright, even by strip mining planets ship that size take a very large ammount of time to obtain with the new buy with block mechanic. That's assuming that you're not using shop exploits or dupe bugs to acquire ressources, of course.

    The server I play on, Shattered Skies, has strict planet mining rules. As such, the go-to ressource source is asteroids. Even with a decent miner it still took me 3 days to obtain a 40k mass ship. Part of that is because the server is slow due to collisions and stuff, but still, that's a pretty serious time investment. Spawning something like Charon in would be an enormous investment and would require full-faction production to obtain in reasonable amounts of time (still more than a week probably).

    That's why I was asking about how "huge" is defined. Because a "huge" ship for me would take a crapton of time to obtain in-game, without including the time it took to build it and make a blueprint.
     
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    Anything above 1km long that isn't a blob is NOT a walk in the park, especially not during the building phase.
    For that we need to establish certain difference between persoanl player's involvement stemming from his preffered playing style and ambitions and in-game costs. For example, like I've pointed out, the time and effort used in putting blocks together I cannot at the current level of most ships' complexity (at least one not stemming from artistic ambitions) consider an actual fair price, since building stuff itself is a goal and entertainment of a big part of the game, the same way I don't expect additional rewards beyond further gameplay, challenges and advancement of the plot for shooting enemies in a game about shooting enemies.

    To not repeat my wall of text after writing it so soon: in my post I do not state any particular size because the problems listed don't start at any particular size, but are a lasting issue when it comes to scaling of size with efficiency, design challenges and complexity, risks and costs involved when building ships.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Alright, even by strip mining planets ship that size take a very large ammount of time to obtain with the new buy with block mechanic. That's assuming that you're not using shop exploits or dupe bugs to acquire ressources, of course.

    The server I play on, Shattered Skies, has strict planet mining rules. As such, the go-to ressource source is asteroids. Even with a decent miner it still took me 3 days to obtain a 40k mass ship. Part of that is because the server is slow due to collisions and stuff, but still, that's a pretty serious time investment. Spawning something like Charon in would be an enormous investment and would require full-faction production to obtain in reasonable amounts of time (still more than a week probably).

    That's why I was asking about how "huge" is defined. Because a "huge" ship for me would take a crapton of time to obtain in-game, without including the time it took to build it and make a blueprint.
    The Charon is probably way over the size threshhold I was talking about, and again of course building it took a crapton of time seeing as you carefully built everything on it and redid several things... People's bricks and semi-bricks, on the other hand, not so much.
     
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    I really have no issue with massive ships. The issue for me is with resource gathering, it is way too easy to accumulate a seemingly infinite amount of resources for even the most talent-less and lazy player. therefore it is possible for just about anyone to spawn in a titan which while being an amazing spectacle of artwork seems a little ridiculous. I think seeing a titan on a MP server should be a more exciting thing than it currently is because at the moment they are too abundant but I think (and hope) that will be fixed in due course anyway.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    I really have no issue with massive ships. The issue for me is with resource gathering, it is way too easy to accumulate a seemingly infinite amount of resources for even the most talent-less and lazy player. therefore it is possible for just about anyone to spawn in a titan which while being an amazing spectacle of artwork seems a little ridiculous. I think seeing a titan on a MP server should be a more exciting thing than it currently is because at the moment they are too abundant but I think (and hope) that will be fixed in due course anyway.
    The problem isn't resource acquisition, ATM getting resources is grindy and annoying and making it harder is a terrible idea. The problem is that once you have a titan, it's an indestructable gigafortress and can only be taken out by another titan, or a massive swarm - a massive swarm usually carried by... surprise... A TITAN!
     

    Mered4

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    If you are using the old Credit system for resource acquisition, raise your hands.

    Right, since that is everyone who just mentioned how EASY it is to get Titans, please reconsider your arguments after playing survival with a 5x or even 10x bonus to mining.

    Let me give you a hint:

    It took myself and my engineer ten planets of strip mining to spawn the 185k mass Executor on the MushroomFleet server, back when it ran on a 10x bonus to mining for survival. We did this in faction territory, which means an additional 6x bonus to the base server level. It was insane how much time and energy it took to get that thing spawned. It was not easy by any means.

    In the current survival system, getting a Titan is hard. Keeping it in a hostile universe is even harder.

    I'll be back in a bit - I need to re-read some of what ya'll said so I understand it correctly. :)
    [DOUBLEPOST=1434327062,1434324348][/DOUBLEPOST]The gist of what I am hearing is this:

    Big ships cause too much lag to be viable for the majority of players who do not own God-like gaming machines.

    As someone who just upgraded from a toaster-level laptop into a performance desktop, I understand. Every ship I've built was on that terrifyingly bad laptop. That said, the recent Massive Optimization patch really helped in that regard. Personally, I went from 5 FPS with One Executor in my view to 60FPS. Thats a massive improvement, and it's only getting better. The main reason I say we shouldn't consider lag to be a serious boundary except in extreme cases is because it's being fixed. By the time schema implements the changes to compensate for lag, those changes will be obsolete. In addition, we shouldn't put an artificial ceiling on someone's big idea. I understand and can relate to the plight of low-end computer owners, but we cannot hold ourselves back from a feature with the potential to take Starmade into a future filled with prosperity because a portion of the community will be limited by it.

    Something else that was said: These sorts of decisions should be left to server owners and they should be given the tools to do so.

    I'd argue they already have those tools, albeit indirectly: /destroy_entity_dock and a spawn station listing clear rules for the playerbase.
    Simple, right? And now you, the admin, know how to use them :)
     
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    Giant, ramply wall-of-text reply below!

    I do understand about resource acquisition, but again that tends to come down to what server you are on, and the rules they have in play. Shameless vote and donation rewards only encourages this sort of gameplay, or auto-restocking spawn shops, or turning up shop spawns. All of the tools to keep mining/buying titans down seem to have a blind eye turned towards them when servers are looking for players, votes, and to be honest, some are trying to be more for-profit than a beacon of community.

    However, I have made quite a few comments in the curious fuel survey here that address some of the problem that really rings in my opinion, which is the fact that once you have one, it takes little to maintain unless you get a big hole shot in it by someone else's titan. However, to force things to the opposite end of the scale, in an extreme case to demonstrate the point, the problem would only be worse if everyone only had fighters.

    As I said this is an extreme swing to the other end, in attempt to help identify the core issues, since most can agree it's not just that titans exist. Let's say they implemented a size cap, 50x50x50. Nothing bigger can be built. The problems that would arise here are immediately evident, and point toward the core issues.

    • For one, the ONLY optimal ship becomes a deathcube. Since every block matters that much more, you could not spare a block for decoration unless you had no willingness to participate in PvP. Creative builders would still exist, but would not go near anyone that wasnt a like-minded gamer.
    • Players that DID choose to build smaller would feel punished, as they would not have any reward for the increased time or creativity put in to their ship, and any "optimizations" they did on their creative build would be moot at best.
    • Next, resources would be even MORE abundant if left at the same levels. Players would be able to reach the cap, in advanced armor and shields, in an hour, and less if they're competent
    • The ease at which you can respawn ships leaves little penalty for death
    • Everyone would be on an even playing field for turn rates, and thrust would be the only variable, although I'm sure a bit of mathcrafting would point towards the optimal number of blocks to use for your deathcube (and few people would vary by more than a few blocks to keep their edge.
    • Some might point to the fact that this encourages skill in dogfighting, and it would, but starmade is geared more towards the skill of the builder than the pilot. Those who want more pilot-based skill games can find plenty of them in a variety of genres.
    • The only lag caused would be if you visited someone's base where they had thousands of backup ships waiting.
    • Player interaction would be further discouraged since one player could amass a fleet of backup ships on their first day, and wouldnt need help of others to do so. The only time you would see factions is for fleet combat and nothing more.
    There are some more things that could be said, like turrets and whatnot, that would apply to this scale but not as much to the point it addresses. Some things both good and bad can be gleaned from looking at the most extreme opposite end of an argument. We can now start to distill the issue in to the following:
    • The abundance of resources means that, for any given equal length of time between two players, the player that devotes more of that time to a deathbrick will in nearly all cases, outperform the player that spends ANY amount of time on creative design.
    • There is no penalty, post construction, for anyone building a large ship. Many things can address this from fuel, to general maintenance costs, crew requirements, life support, repairs (c'mon shipyards and HP update, we're so ready!). Without at least one or more of the above, there is no reason not to work towards a titan, and very few reasons to use anything else once you get your first one.
    • Losing a titan is a big penalty, but maybe TOO much so, as it encourages the player to be constantly pushing for the biggest titan they can afford, to lessen the chances of this penalty. The reward is also too great for the capture of a titan, although the HP system will address this to some degree by making core-drilling a non-option.
    • Shields may be too powerful overall, not in their ability to recharge, or in overall capacity, but merely in the sense that knocking someone's shields out does nothing to them if they are able to escape, as most player tend to jump away once their personal discomfort level of shield % remaining is met. This once again points to the abundance of resources issue, though less directly and enough so to be made it's own point
    BUT QUANTUM! Drones and turrets rule the day!!!!

    Not as much from I've seen. When they are deployed, yes, they tend to work very well. However, even with the advancements in replaceable drone racks, the cost of using them (with no recovery options) makes at least SOME players wary of doing so. It is akin to lopping off the front half of your titan to kill your opponent's, forcing you to rebuild those components and you arent always guaranteed a win since you are dedicating precious space to housing said drones instead of more shields and guns. In fact, those saying that drones are an issue are slightly hypocritical because using drones is a direct drain on resources for a combative edge, meaning that to continue winning battles the owner of a carrier must constantly be dumping more resources to keep it in the most optimal combat condition.

    Turrets, on the other hand have gotten a boost in the last update, but one that I feel was sorely needed.

    BUT WHAT'S THE ANSWER!?!?

    Well, that's what we are discussing, but I felt it might be necessary to look more closely at what it was we were really looking at. The answer, whatever it is, should cater to the following:
    • Construction time, though I see where it is valid and where it is not, should NOT be considered, as in most cases any two equally matched players, no matter what mechanics are involved, will have a tendency to fall in one of three categories: Min-Maxers, Creative Builders, and Blended players that mix the two. A good chunk of the argument at hand comes down to those falling in one category disliking someone else's playstyle and feeling the game should be catered more toward their own. Any argument of this type will generally end up siding with the players in the middle, as the game ITSELF is a blend of combat and creativity, but there will always be players on both far ends of the spectrum proclaiming how things are unbalanced toward their end, because it's (attempting) to be balanced toward the middle.
    • Varying the playstyle can help spread the playerbase more thinly in these three areas by providing new areas to exist within the game, which could do some good for the argument at hand. Better economy, trade, storage caps for stacks in boxes, more uses for faction points etc., would lead to there being more kinds of players than just "military" and "creative". Traders, who might hire or work with military factions, or transport large volumes of cargo, negotiate prices at shops, and things of that nature. Stations with mechanics that are adept at repairing or building ships more cheaply than a single player. Anything like a skill or class system (whether strictly coded as such or merely implied by the gameplay elements available).
    • Anything else that helps drive the focus away from "gotta make a bigger gun so the game remains fun" and "Gotta make a prettier ship so the game remains fun" and more towards "I want interact with others, which provides a much more intricate experience full of story, cooperation, and betrayal, so that I can reach my personal goals within the game" (without penalizing players that want a more solo experience).
    • Fuel, maintenance costs, or some other attributing factor should come in to play for larger ships, while smaller ones get more or less a pass (fuel only required past a certain power generation point, or maintenance costs being on a curve since small ships are more likely to be blown up, or at best scrapped and replaced, than returned damaged and repaired, etc).
    TL;DR point of discussion please!
    • Risk, Reward, and Penalty. This is the big one. The answer should make titans a RISK to attain, maintain, and use. It should still REWARD those that want to make them, without a PENALTY to those that choose not to, although the same goes for those that choose to make smaller ships, the same values should apply there as well, to varying degrees (less risk, less penalty, slightly more rewarding without swaying the balance too far).
    Currently, I don't feel there is any implied penalty for making a smaller ship (less efficient is not a penalty), but I feel there should be more risk (not effort) involved in making a larger one.
     
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    Mered4

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    Giant, ramply wall-of-text reply below!

    I do understand about resource acquisition, but again that tends to come down to what server you are on, and the rules they have in play. Shameless vote and donation rewards only encourages this sort of gameplay, or auto-restocking spawn shops, or turning up shop spawns. All of the tools to keep mining/buying titans down seem to have a blind eye turned towards them when servers are looking for players, votes, and to be honest, some are trying to be more for-profit than a beacon of community.

    However, I have made quite a few comments in the curious fuel survey here that address some of the problem that really rings in my opinion, which is the fact that once you have one, it takes little to maintain unless you get a big hole shot in it by someone else's titan. However, to force things to the opposite end of the scale, in an extreme case to demonstrate the point, the problem would only be worse if everyone only had fighters.

    As I said this is an extreme swing to the other end, in attempt to help identify the core issues, since most can agree it's not just that titans exist. Let's say they implemented a size cap, 50x50x50. Nothing bigger can be built. The problems that would arise here are immediately evident, and point toward the core issues.

    • For one, the ONLY optimal ship becomes a deathcube. Since every block matters that much more, you could not spare a block for decoration unless you had no willingness to participate in PvP. Creative builders would still exist, but would not go near anyone that wasnt a like-minded gamer.
    • Players that DID choose to build smaller would feel punished, as they would not have any reward for the increased time or creativity put in to their ship, and any "optimizations" they did on their creative build would be moot at best.
    • Next, resources would be even MORE abundant if left at the same levels. Players would be able to reach the cap, in advanced armor and shields, in an hour, and less if they're competent
    • The ease at which you can respawn ships leaves little penalty for death
    • Everyone would be on an even playing field for turn rates, and thrust would be the only variable, although I'm sure a bit of mathcrafting would point towards the optimal number of blocks to use for your deathcube (and few people would vary by more than a few blocks to keep their edge.
    • Some might point to the fact that this encourages skill in dogfighting, and it would, but starmade is geared more towards the skill of the builder than the pilot. Those who want more pilot-based skill games can find plenty of them in a variety of genres.
    • The only lag caused would be if you visited someone's base where they had thousands of backup ships waiting.
    • Player interaction would be further discouraged since one player could amass a fleet of backup ships on their first day, and wouldnt need help of others to do so. The only time you would see factions is for fleet combat and nothing more.
    There are some more things that could be said, like turrets and whatnot, that would apply to this scale but not as much to the point it addresses. Some things both good and bad can be gleaned from looking at the most extreme opposite end of an argument. We can now start to distill the issue in to the following:
    • The abundance of resources means that, for any given equal length of time between two players, the player that devotes more of that time to a deathbrick will in nearly all cases, outperform the player that spends ANY amount of time on creative design.
    • There is no penalty, post construction, for anyone building a large ship. Many things can address this from fuel, to general maintenance costs, crew requirements, life support, repairs (c'mon shipyards and HP update, we're so ready!). Without at least one or more of the above, there is no reason not to work towards a titan, and very few reasons to use anything else once you get your first one.
    • Losing a titan is a big penalty, but maybe TOO much so, as it encourages the player to be constantly pushing for the biggest titan they can afford, to lessen the chances of this penalty. The reward is also too great for the capture of a titan, although the HP system will address this to some degree by making core-drilling a non-option.
    • Shields may be too powerful overall, not in their ability to recharge, or in overall capacity, but merely in the sense that knocking someone's shields out does nothing to them if they are able to escape, as most player tend to jump away once their personal discomfort level of shield % remaining is met. This once again points to the abundance of resources issue, though less directly and enough so to be made it's own point
    BUT QUANTUM! Drones and turrets rule the day!!!!

    Not as much from I've seen. When they are deployed, yes, they tend to work very well. However, even with the advancements in replaceable drone racks, the cost of using them (with no recovery options) makes at least SOME players wary of doing so. It is akin to lopping off the front half of your titan to kill your opponent's, forcing you to rebuild those components and you arent always guaranteed a win since you are dedicating precious space to housing said drones instead of more shields and guns. In fact, those saying that drones are an issue are slightly hypocritical because using drones is a direct drain on resources for a combative edge, meaning that to continue winning battles the owner of a carrier must constantly be dumping more resources to keep it in the most optimal combat condition.

    Turrets, on the other hand have gotten a boost in the last update, but one that I feel was sorely needed.

    BUT WHAT'S THE ANSWER!?!?

    Well, that's what we are discussing, but I felt it might be necessary to look more closely at what it was we were really looking at. The answer, whatever it is, should cater to the following:
    • Construction time, though I see where it is valid and where it is not, should NOT be considered, as in most cases any two equally matched players, no matter what mechanics are involved, will have a tendency to fall in one of three categories: Min-Maxers, Creative Builders, and Blended players that mix the two. A good chunk of the argument at hand comes down to those falling in one category disliking someone else's playstyle and feeling the game should be catered more toward their own. Any argument of this type will generally end up siding with the players in the middle, as the game ITSELF is a blend of combat and creativity, but there will always be players on both far ends of the spectrum proclaiming how things are unbalanced toward their end, because it's (attempting) to be balanced toward the middle.
    • Varying the playstyle can help spread the playerbase more thinly in these three areas by providing new areas to exist within the game, which could do some good for the argument at hand. Better economy, trade, storage caps for stacks in boxes, more uses for faction points etc., would lead to there being more kinds of players than just "military" and "creative". Traders, who might hire or work with military factions, or transport large volumes of cargo, negotiate prices at shops, and things of that nature. Stations with mechanics that are adept at repairing or building ships more cheaply than a single player. Anything like a skill or class system (whether strictly coded as such or merely implied by the gameplay elements available).
    • Anything else that helps drive the focus away from "gotta make a bigger gun so the game remains fun" and "Gotta make a prettier ship so the game remains fun" and more towards "I want interact with others, which provides a much more intricate experience full of story, cooperation, and betrayal, so that I can reach my personal goals within the game" (without penalizing players that want a more solo experience).
    • Fuel, maintenance costs, or some other attributing factor should come in to play for larger ships, while smaller ones get more or less a pass (fuel only required past a certain power generation point, or maintenance costs being on a curve since small ships are more likely to be blown up, or at best scrapped and replaced, than returned damaged and repaired, etc).
    TL;DR point of discussion please!
    • Risk, Reward, and Penalty. This is the big one. The answer should make titans a RISK to attain, maintain, and use. It should still REWARD those that want to make them, without a PENALTY to those that choose not to, although the same goes for those that choose to make smaller ships, the same values should apply there as well, to varying degrees (less risk, less penalty, slightly more rewarding without swaying the balance too far).
    Currently, I don't feel there is any implied penalty for making a smaller ship (less efficient is not a penalty), but I feel there should be more risk (not effort) involved in making a larger one.
    I'm going to start with the following statement, then skip to the TL;DR part. It's not that I didn't read your post - I did - it's that I don't want to be here all night writing an essay :)

    "Shameless vote and donation rewards only encourages this sort of gameplay, or auto-restocking spawn shops, or turning up shop spawns. All of the tools to keep mining/buying titans down seem to have a blind eye turned towards them when servers are looking for players, votes, and to be honest, some are trying to be more for-profit than a beacon of community."

    This bullshit is only practiced by a few servers that I WILL NOT NAME but WHO KNOW WHO THEY ARE. I will also point out that MushroomFleet is not and never will be one of these servers. We actually advise our members NOT to vote in that hilariously gamed system for that very reason. It's corrupt and has been ruining gameplay on those pay to win servers for years.

    Now, for your TL;DR:

    Here's how we stand right now:

    By bringing in a large (say, Titan class) ship that ISN'T a doomcube (or sphere), you are RISKING the opportunity cost of that ship. In essence, it's expensive and costs a lot of time and effort to spawn into a MP server. You are REWARDED for that time and effort with a ship that can basically dominate any other vessel 1v1, but is extremely vulnerable to drone carriers and coordinated fleet engagements. There is no PENALTY for those that either cannot field a Titan or choose to fly a smaller ship. They just have to be aware that they are fighting a capital ship and should be mindful of that simple fact. (I.E., know your enemy and bring friends or a drone carrier).

    Also, smaller ships are always, ALWAYS more efficient after about a thousand (1000) mass. This is why Drones and Waffle Cannons work so well in the current system.

    If you play on a server that hands out credits like candy, you aren't playing vanilla. Sorry. Vanilla is about block blueprints, carefully crafted industrial factory hubs, and mind-numbing amounts of mining. The credit system is not a valid way to judge how easy it is to bring in Titans. If your server does it, that's their problem. Talk to your admins (if they'll listen, which if they aren't MushroomFleet, isn't likely), maybe they'll look into ship size restrictions. If I remember correctly, most active servers have a limit at or below 1km.

    Final point:

    You've mentioned that Drone Carriers have a high opportunity cost compared to other vessels at this point in time. And they do - absolutely. That's why no one uses them right now :) We can't just dwell on the past or present, however. We've been given a rough roadmap since day zero, and that roadmap includes the oft-rumored fleet control. Once we get fleet control and turrets have mass-limited turn speeds, drones will rule completely. Titans will be so obsolete, it won't even be funny anymore. We'll look back and laugh at how insanely short-sighted it was to consider nerfing a vessel that quickly became a worthless flying brick.

    Here's the big idea: Let's stop worrying about the subtle, not-immediately-obvious problems with balance until schema gets most, if not all, of the *release* gameplay features working. It's not worth the hassle of arguing over problems with far-reaching and possibly limiting solutions. The server admins can limit the size of vessels on their servers if they pay attention. That's all that is needed for now and schema should focus on gameplay content instead of silly balance changes.

    I for one cannot wait for the HP update :D

    Edit Sidenote: I wrote an essay anyway. Go figure. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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    Gigantism will be fixed as soon as the AI-Update comes out.
    Simple as that.

    An AI fleet consisting of different shiptypes (fighter, bomber, ...), led by a player will be the ultimate answer to a single titan ;)

    I think titans are balanced as they are, only the counterpart isn't implemented yet. (Since you can remote-selfdestruct your dornes by wireless logic, there is some hope ;) )
     
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    That will definitely help the issue. When I say numbers are the best solution to dealing with bigger ships I don't just mean thousands upon thousands of drones, a well balanced strike fleet can do pretty horrible things to big ships. Shipyards should definitely help with the ease of acquisition as well (though, as has been pointed out I don't agree that's really a thing) since construction will require time.
     
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    Gigantism will be fixed as soon as the AI-Update comes out.
    Simple as that.
    Actually, in all honesty I have my doubts about it. Refer to my argument about drones. If bigger is better in every case, doesn't come with significant, lasting shortcomings, penalties and risks then it's a go-to answer.

    An AI fleet consisting of different shiptypes (fighter, bomber, ...), led by a player will be the ultimate answer to a single titan ;)
    In this situation, AI won't improve anything - it will merely lead to people using several sizeable ships instead of one. Plus people will figure quickly that those 'different shiptypes' should be made in huge version to increase their power. Back to square one, just with multiple bigger ships instead of single huge one.

    Risk, Reward, and Penalty. This is the big one. The answer should make titans a RISK to attain, maintain, and use. It should still REWARD those that want to make them, without a PENALTY to those that choose not to, although the same goes for those that choose to make smaller ships, the same values should apply there as well, to varying degrees (less risk, less penalty, slightly more rewarding without swaying the balance too far).
    Well, like I've mentioned, there were some nice ideas I saw regarding big ships and differentiating them in comparison with the small ones - though many of them need edjusting and discussion as not all may be viable to the same degree.

    What I recall from the top of my head that isn't very restrictive and generally wasn't shot down:
    - adjusting upcoming HP values and stat gain curve that the small vessels are able to at least damage such ships a bit, as well as applying and deriving HP only from certain blocks so ships with a hole blown in the side will have to protect its 'guts' from further attacks and a bunch of guys in a boarding party will be able to enter and damage internal components of a ship without shields and armor magically inverting itself to protect every computer and a pot-plant.
    - requesting regular maintenance and resupplying depending on size, possibly fuel consumption and making the use of resources in relation to the power acquired scaled more harshly than it is right now.
    - actual crews required to handle all kinds of systems to maintain efficiency, with life support required to keep them alive and ways for them to die

    One of the problems is that as players get more rich, they are able to to invest all their riches to get immediately more rich through creation of bigger, more efficient installations. There's no 'maintenance' drain on resources nor any mechanics limiting usefulness of big ships in every conceivable and practical field.

    This bullshit is only practiced by a few servers that I WILL NOT NAME but WHO KNOW WHO THEY ARE.
    I must say I disagree. I saw such situation happen on big, reputable and great servers and what makes the issue even more complex is that often it was actually a sign that administration cared about a friendly newbie or wanted to even-out the playfield on non-hardcore-PvP servers, allowing access to resources and a way to grow for everyone instead of dooming some part of playerbase to be unable to play becausecertain factions established absolute hegemony. Their intentions were good and in certain way it makes gameplay easier and more comfortable for everyone, even though at the same time it does, bit by bit add to the whole problem of 'inflation-less money printing'.

    By bringing in a large (say, Titan class) ship that ISN'T a doomcube (or sphere), you are RISKING the opportunity cost of that ship. In essence, it's expensive and costs a lot of time and effort to spawn into a MP server.
    The 'time and effort' thing I kind of regarded already:

    For example, like I've pointed out, the time and effort used in putting blocks together I cannot at the current level of most ships' complexity (at least one not stemming from artistic ambitions) consider an actual fair price, since building stuff itself is a goal and entertainment of a big part of the game, the same way I don't expect additional rewards beyond further gameplay, challenges and advancement of the plot for shooting enemies in a game about shooting enemies.
    ...and even if one would consider that a bad argument, who is to say that great expediture of the time and effort happens only during construction of the biggest ships? What if someone creates a small vessel but puts literally every cube down with a great intent and after long deliberation, meditating long and hard over shape of every little bit and then taking hours to reshape everything up to specs? What if someone isn't building doom cubes, but has a great mastery over all building mode and whatnot commands and can make rough but functional gigantic ship in a span of a few hours? Is there some official divine order of 'you shall not spend more/less than X time and effort building ships in this particular size category'?

    Either we'll have to claim someone's effort and spent time was wasted and shouldn't matter since it could be all done more efficiently and thus encourage the attitude you seemed to be yourself against - 'play the game my way' or we cannot seriously consider as an argument that power of the ships people currently get should be validated only by the time and credits involved in putting the blocks together.

    You are REWARDED for that time and effort with a ship that can basically dominate any other vessel 1v1, but is extremely vulnerable to drone carriers and coordinated fleet engagements.
    And again, drone carriers which often are also big ships - to, you know, carry those drones - and use drones instead of additional cannons. Thus only underlining the importance of size. And those drones as pointed out before are at least balanced in a way that some (often many) of them will get obliterated in a fight, being a drain on resources (and killers of PC's performance but that's beside the point).

    Again, both in case of drones and 'coordinated fleet engagements' gigantism on its own is still a problem, because like I've said before - bigger carriers with similar number of bigger drones and bigger fleets with similar number of bigger ships will still have automatically an advantage not because of any tactical genius or special hardships involved in their construction that someone overcomes (because, to repeat, currently strip-mining a few planets may take time but is relatively easy and reliable way to obtain cash that won't go into anywhere or be required to sustain any operation over time but be used straight for building of the ships) but because bigger in every situation will be again - better.

    There is no PENALTY for those that either cannot field a Titan or choose to fly a smaller ship. They just have to be aware that they are fighting a capital ship and should be mindful of that simple fact. (I.E., know your enemy and bring friends or a drone carrier).
    That's somewhat a cop-out. While I do agree that heavier, big, more deadly ships should be that - more deadly, your argument is basically 'there's no penalty for others - they should just know they face a type of enemy which is far stronger' without addressing the issue of it being far stronger for reasons that may require balancing and are arguably unfairly only in favor of creators of those bigger ships.

    To relate it again to the multiplayer shooter example - faced with an end-all weapon that can shoot through walls and guides the infinitely replenishing bullets toward enemies, even if it requires lot of grinding and minigames - people still will be rather logical in a claim it's disrupting the balance in comparison with anything else and want it managed in a way that someone beside wielders of similar weapons will be able to stand against such.

    Again, I'd like to remind people to not look for faults in big ship themselves, because the problem doesn't only touch vessels of particular size. The problem is in underlying mechanics of scaling ship's abilities and stats with it's size and scaling of this size with expenses, penalties and demands for more ingenious engineering than 'let's grab the usual but just make it bigger'.
     
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    Warning: large ships can and DO destroy larger ones. All we have to do is look to our favorite sci-fi franchise to confirm this.

    That being said, I believe the problem is not that a 'titan' destroys smaller ships, but that its an invincible ship taking out other ships for the Lols

    Now, as stated before, resource acquisition is the bottleneck here. Some people do it differently, and that plays a role in the size ship they can spawn how soon.

    To conclude, as a small builder of my tiny caliber who has attempted three large ships, and never gotten past 50% done, I respect large ship builders. Their ships should not be nerfed, but be a ship to strive for.

    Disclaimer: this is my opinion, and as someone who doesn't play all that often due to working 10 hour shifts, I do not know what goes on inside of MP servers.