FTL Discussion Reboot

[Lecic]

As the old thread was closed down due to the new "instant-lock" strategy the mods are using on necroed posts, I've decided to recontinue the thread here. (link to the old thread)

To start off discussion, I'll post my idea of what FTL should be like. I would like to see both ship-based FTL and warp gates. Ship-based FTL could have either a high-flat energy cost, maybe 100,000e per a certain amount of mass. There could also be warp gates. They could be built or stations or ships, with a ring/square/other shape of "gate ring" blocks. They could be activated, and would drain power based on the size of the portal. You could visit other portals within a certain sector range. If an exit portal was too small to fit the ship, the areas that didn't fit would be torn off horribly. There could also be "locked portals," which would allow for instant travel between the two when you entered it, without a selection screen like with unlocked portals.

How would you like to see FTL implemented?

 

[Aecetym]

The ship-based FTL and warp gates would be the best way of implementing FTL/large distance travel imo.

Ship-based FTL:
I've have always been of the opinion that the ship-based FTL should be for larger ships only. This by giving ship-based FTL a minimum power requirement for 'jumping' the smallest possible distance. Also to put the carrier aspect a bit more in the game and not to have yet another block in the game that takes a big part of the ships system space just for a simple feature (the new weapons system and effects do already great on that bit). Charging the FTL or a minimal amount of time you need while not moving for the FTL to kick in wouldn't be a bad thing as long it isn't to long, depending on the distance you want to travel.

Warp gates:
As Ship-based FTL is for 'bigger' ships warp gates would be for smaller ships and less for bigger ships as the power requirement could become to large after a while. Also fitting a titan in a portal would mean the portal has to be bigger then the ship itself, what would become a bit ludicrous. The only problem I see with this is that ppl might just drop gates everywhere, pretty much turning the into a spam object, but the new economie system might fix that as the cost could be to high for that. Also like the idea that ships could get damaged from to small portals like Lecic said.

To put it in points
Ship-based FTL:

• A minimum power requirement for the smallest possible distance to travel, preventing smaller (fighters) from using it and promoting carrier aspects;
• Pre-set distances (sectors, meters, ...) to jump with the required power to do so, preventing even ships that can use the FTL from jumping some distances;
• A jump would teleport the ship rather then speed it up, this to prevent stressing your PC;
• A jump would need all it's power for the jump at once, giving a incentive for more powerstorage at the cost of other systems;
• A charge time depending on the distance the ship will jump while the ship is not moving (disabled at battles).
• 1 'computer' block that controles the jumps rather then X blocks for X mass to jump
• (requirements for power to jump a distance could rise with mass but not a must for me)

Warp gates:

• Mainly for 'smaller' ships;
• The larger the gate the more power it needs;
• A smaller portal on the other side would result in damage to the ship or even it destroy .

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

I think all three "methods" should be implemented.

Ship-Based FTL:
I agree with Lecic in that ship-based FTL has to have some sort of drawback. Maybe shields should be inoperative for 5 minutes after the jump, or building the jump engine should be an ultra-complicated process (more so than old reactor design). This is because nobody would build jump gates or explore wormholes if there was not a drawback to ship FTL.

(Player built) Jump Gates:
This is my personal favorite. Jump gates would have several positive impacts on game play. For one, a faction who wanted to make an unreachable base at 9999, 9999, 9999 would have to fly there first to build the gate. Gates would also add a great strategic dimension to faction warfare, especially if anyone can use them.

Wormholes
It would be great to have random wormholes of varying sizes spawning throughout the universe. The idea of entering one and having no idea where it leads would add a great exploration element to the game. This is also the best place to implement the "ships that are too large get damaged/destroyed" feature.

 

[madmann135]

I have always wondered how would one develop a FTL system.
In ships we have the overdrive module that can boost a ship's top speed. I find this to be a good short range FTL system as it can double the ship's top speed to 2x the server.

Now for the long distance FTL. I was thinking of "how can we build and balance such a system?" Then I remembered the docking station. I then thought "Maybe we should use point to point jump system."
Long story short the system would teleport a ship from one jump beacon to another. These beacons can be placed on space stations as a variant of a docking port and be powered to help teleport stuff from one point to another.
But in order to do that we would need an address book.

 

[Aizria]

Gates would also add a great strategic dimension to faction warfare, especially if anyone can use them.

On this note, something tangentially related that I, personally, think would be interesting to see along with this, considering the new crafting and resource systems being implemented, would be gates that spawn randomly in a StarMade universe that lead to otherwise difficult-to-access locations that are in some way or another resource-rich. This would add an entirely new dimension to faction interactions, as whoever could maintain control over such gates would have easier access than others to large caches of valuable resources. It would certainly give factions a reason to fight over certain regions of space.

 

[cptkickercutleg]

Perhaps having mobile warp gates on capital ships isn't a massively bad idea, as long as they have a prohibitively large price and e/sec cost, making shields etc less viable, thus making the ship more vulnerable while opening up fleet tactics, especially if there are only two-way point-to-point gates.
It would mean that these warp ships would need to be protected, maybe behind the lines of battle, whereas retreating fighters would have a way back to the safety of a home base.

On a side note, both gates would need to be synced up the each other via entity/ship name, so station-ship would have to have the station's gate linked to the ship and vice-versa, and any damage to the gate would render them either inoperable or dangerous, with scaling danger the more damaged the gate.

Gate stability could in itself be linked to how many "gate" blocks surround the gate, which are then connected by "warp" blocks, which act somewhat like the End-Gate in MC, in that it fills in the area made by the "gate" blocks, but while only 3 "gate" blocks would be needed to make a triangular gate, it would have to be very small, and have a 50/50 chance to destroy whatever goes through it. In other words, a stable small gate would be at least 8 "gate" blocks surrounding 1 "warp" block, with a 1 computer to synchronise it with another gate.

Where in the gate you come out would probably be calculated from how close to the corners you are, for instance, making a 1-block warp gate would mean that your core spawns on the other side in the very top/bottom-left/right corner, this is problematic for large ships, as it can remove anything that clips with the gate blocks as soon as it goes through, thus meaning that either ships will be smaller than the gates or gates will have to be made bigger than ships.

 

[NeonSturm]

I would first modify the push-effect module to allow 200% max speed if overdrive is enabled and add cool-down to push (maybe 30 seconds), but also increase effect *30, power-drain *30 ... depends on max speed settings of the server.

To enter Hyperspace, you need 180% speed. If you then activate the jump computer, collision checks disable and you fade away. Then you warp into another sector like with admin commands and be given some seconds to load.
Then you are at the same speed you entered hyperspace and slowly get more opaque for others, while approaching 100% server speed. You can not slow down manually (though you can steer into empty space during this time)
Once you are fully opaque your ship's colision checks are re-enabled.

After choosing a distance you can get from calculating (SECTOR_SIZE * 2^x) < SERVER_MAX_JUMP_LIMIT with x being any whole number from 0 to whatever needed to reach SERVER_MAX_JUMP_LIMIT.

The ship-based FTL and warp gates would be the best way of implementing FTL/large distance travel imo.

Ship-based FTL:
I've have always been of the opinion that the ship-based FTL should be for larger ships only. This by giving ship-based FTL a minimum power requirement to use for 'jumping' the smallest possible distance. Also to put the carrier aspect a bit more in the game and not to have yet another block in the game that takes a big part of the ships system space just for a simple feature (the new weapons system and effects do already great on that bit). Charging the FTL or a minimal amount of time you need while not moving for the FTL to kick in wouldn't be a bad thing as long it isn't to long, depending on the distance you want to travel.

Warp gates:
As Ship-based FTL is for 'bigger' ships warp gates would be for smaller ships and less for bigger ships as the power requirement could become to large after a while. Also fitting a titan in a portal would mean the portal has to be bigger then the ship itself, what would become a bit ludicrous. The only problem I see with this is that ppl might just drop gates everywhere, pretty much turning the into a spam object, but the new economie system might fix that as the cost could be to high for that. Also like the idea that ships could get damaged from to small portals like Lecic said.

To put it in points
Ship-based FTL:

• A minimum power requirement for the smallest possible distance to travel, preventing smaller (fighters) from using it and promoting carrier aspects;
• Pre-set distances (sectors, meters, ...) to jump with the required power to do so, preventing even ships that can use the FTL from jumping some distances;
• A jump would teleport the ship rather then speed it up, this to prevent stressing your PC;
• A jump would need all it's power for the jump at once, giving a incentive for more powerstorage at the cost of other systems;
• A charge time depending on the distance the ship will jump while the ship is not moving (disabled at battles).
• 1 'computer' block that controles the jumps rather then X blocks for X mass to jump
• (requirements for power to jump a distance could rise with mass but not a must for me)

Warp gates:

• Mainly for 'smaller' ships;
• The larger the gate the more power it needs;
• A smaller portal on the other side would result in damage to the ship or even it destroy .

Ty for fixed ranges idea.
I agree on the minimum power requirement.

I agree that warp gates should be able to destroy ships, but only if you are able to send scout ships through and get data about enemy bases and portal size/shape...

• For the gate's power requirements, how about radius^3 ?
• While a ship flies through, is it possible to align the ship's xz-plane's centre of mass to the mid y of the gate and it's yz centre mass to the mid y of the gate with an autopilot?
  
• Then just cut everything that collides with one of the gate's xy|xz|yz-plane's passable area - dependent on which plane is selected as default plane.

I would like small gates on carrier ships too. But they should drain power with radius^3 * current speed and just cut thee ship apart which is flying through the gate when the power storage reaches 0.

 

[Lecic]

I just had the idea of a weaponized warp gate.

A ship with a large warp gate on the front rams into enemy ships, forcing them through the portal. The exit portal is much smaller, resulting in insane carnage.

 

[Dragon2000]

about the wormholes how will you know where they are and how big they are so say i was flying around in one of my ships suddenly i get warped somewhere and my ships destroyed A how was i meant to know where that was and B without knowing what size the wormhole would be means that ships could be destroyed with you then having to save up the credits again if its an expensive ship

 

[Aizria]

about the wormholes how will you know where they are and how big they are so say i was flying around in one of my ships suddenly i get warped somewhere and my ships destroyed A how was i meant to know where that was and B without knowing what size the wormhole would be means that ships could be destroyed with you then having to save up the credits again if its an expensive ship

I suppose that the assumption is that there would be some sort of graphic wherever a wormhole happened to be at. Obviously, from a gameplay standpoint, you would have to have some sort of wormhole graphic in place. As far as wormhole size concerns, the idea would be to send a small, inexpensive scout ship, that is likely to fit through regardless of the wormhole's size, through the wormhole in order to gather information about it and it's destination. Action could then be taken from there as appropriate. The idea is that it adds a risk factor to exploration.

There should be a risk to taking a large, expensive ship through a random wormhole, imo. It is perfectly sensible that one might not know the size of a wormhole's aperture without proper sensors or measuring equipment of some sort, which could perhaps be added as a possible ship module if wormholes were implemented, now that I mention it. It is also perfectly rational that the occasional random wormhole might be unstable, or might lead to...oh...the core of a star, for example? XD

I just had the idea of a weaponized warp gate.

A ship with a large warp gate on the front rams into enemy ships, forcing them through the portal. The exit portal is much smaller, resulting in insane carnage.

Whoa, calm down Satan. XDDD

 

[ltmauve]

Not a fan of a system that strips off blocks from a ship except perhaps maybe as a random natural feature. I can see people exploring these by shoving a big cross of dirt through them, then going through in a tiny ship to check the result.

More of a fan of a simple jump system for ships, with stations acting as the beacons. Jumping to beacons is possible, jumping off of the power supplies of a station is possible. Jumping to a non-beacon location is possible, but it is inaccurate, may result in damage due to objects jumped into, and reduces thrust for a time based on the mass of the ship. Small ships recover fairly rapidly, large ships will be stuck for longer.

Not sure if there should be a cooldown besides the power regen needed to make a second jump.

 

[kiddan]

A good idea if warp drives are added: When someone warps it should open a portal in front of them. Other ships could follow through the portal, this would make it so warping isn't a way for noobs to escape defeat. after warping you will be in another "dimension" that would be a twisting tunnel, you would get damage from the walls and ships chasing you would be able to fight with you while inside! At the end of the tunnel there is another portal thing and you appear at the location you set your warp drive to. A good example would be the Sonic Heroes game or Sonic 2, when chasing chaos emeralds through the bonus stages, but with ships and portal entrance/exits.

 

[Ixalite]

UNPOPULAR SUGGESTION TIME:
Fuel based hyperspace:
Create a system wherein all FTL travel requires ore as fuel (homeworld?) as well as power and special equipment.

 

[NeonSturm]

I just had the idea of a weaponized warp gate.

A ship with a large warp gate on the front rams into enemy ships, forcing them through the portal. The exit portal is much smaller, resulting in insane carnage.

Spoiler: Would not work with power-upkeep costs = radius^3*(1+speed) :p

r=5 blocks (d=10 blocks) (enough for a small 9m width fighter), speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 125..12'500
r=32 (d=64 blocks) blocks, speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 33k .. 3.3kk
r=64 (d=128 blocks) blocks, speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 262k .. 26kk
r=128 (d=256 blocks) blocks, speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 2.1k .. 210kk
Fighters can fly at 200% server speed with over-cloak.

Against bigger ships, you need to hit them in a way they have to fit through your wormhole.
If they touch the gate ring, you may push them away.
longer ships can always turn around and get their ass out of this hole before it collapses.

Maybe "power-upkeep costs = radius^3*(1+speed)" makes it too easy to have a mobile 200m width gate which only costs 1kk energy at 0 speed.
Maybe ships should always add half their max speed with "power-upkeep costs = radius^3*(1+ maxSpeed/2 + speed)" where maxSpeed = (thrust/weight/dampening <= SERVER_MAX_SPEED)

Energy costs paid by source gate (for the case you want to enter a moving ship) :p

 

[Lecic]

Spoiler: Would not work with power-upkeep costs = radius^3*(1+speed) :p

r=5 blocks (d=10 blocks) (enough for a small 9m width fighter), speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 125..12'500
r=32 (d=64 blocks) blocks, speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 33k .. 3.3kk
r=64 (d=128 blocks) blocks, speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 262k .. 26kk
r=128 (d=256 blocks) blocks, speed = 0 .. 99 -> power-upkeep = 2.1k .. 210kk
Fighters can fly at 200% server speed with over-cloak.

Against bigger ships, you need to hit them in a way they have to fit through your wormhole.
If they touch the gate ring, you may push them away.
longer ships can always turn around and get their ass out of this hole before it collapses.

Maybe "power-upkeep costs = radius^3*(1+speed)" makes it too easy to have a mobile 200m width gate which only costs 1kk energy at 0 speed.
Maybe ships should always add half their max speed with "power-upkeep costs = radius^3*(1+ maxSpeed/2 + speed)" where maxSpeed = (thrust/weight/dampening <= SERVER_MAX_SPEED)

Energy costs paid by source gate (for the case you want to enter a moving ship) :p

Eh, you're no fun.

Even with your idea you could still do it if you dedicated a ship solely to destruction via warp gate.

 

[NeonSturm]

Even with your idea you could still do it if you dedicated a ship solely to destruction via warp gate.

But then there will be counters to it.
If you dedicate something to just one purpose you deserve it, as you may easily could build equally efficient destruction ships with other blocks once you get that much energy

 

[hitmandavey]

Guys We should really add hyper drives

I really can't be asked to type this all again here is the link to the thread it has all the stuff you need.

http://starmadedock.net/threads/hyperdrive.2163/

 

[Charon Styx]

In my opnion warp gates are not the solution, if depending on shipsize it will get annoying like the docking system, a FTL which also can be damaged in battles would be much cooler. Be

I believe many underestimate the integration of such a FTL system. The basic problem is that you want to travel a long distance into short time. From a point A to a point B. Maybe this points are in different sectors, so you have the 2 sectors and your shipposition = Point A.

But what is Point B? Point B should then be a defined position in your target sector.
Now the problem is, even if you can enter the target sector with a FTL system it needs this Point B.

That's not possible without any type of map navigation i think, except every target sector would have a default warpposition. My idea would be to offer a space map, of your VISITED sectors.

On the assumption that everybody who will use FTL wants to travel to a defined object, it could be possible to set bookmarks (maybe with limitation so that not all fly with perma FTL) for target warp positions.

In addition such a map could provide many nice exploration features, if you are flying through the sector asteroid positions, planets could be entered into the map. Maybe you could deposit several notes like "Faction: blabla - Subbase" (Not only warp points), or you can share map parts with others as a commodity.

Such a map could be a 2d representation of a sector filled by the explored and annotated things.

But points which are important for this thing is:
- Should everyone be able to use FTL with every ship?
- Should FTL need a huge amount of energyreserve so that only big motherships can use it?
- Should it be possible to fly in front of the door of an enemy faction? Or could a stationowner be allowed to activate/build a warp breaker?
- Should a FTL has a generator cooldown? (To prevent FTL hopping)

 

[NeonSturm]

Maybe disable FTL in planet sectors or sectors of many asteroids + sun damage sectors.

If you fly through sectors with mine-fields, you should receive much likely damage even tough you could fly through without ramming one without FTL.

Mine fields: many dis-integrators. Counter increases with (+1 each chunk with Dis-integrators)/8 +1 for each object with dis-integrators - good? bad?

With 10km sector size it is easy to create even a 5km diameter base without touching the sector borders with your weapon range.

 

[Snk]

Eh, I'm against any sort of teleportation system. FTL should be a fancy way to increase your top speed.