DPS Advice for a newbie?

    Joined
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages
    41
    Reaction score
    50
    Ok, so I'm still pretty new to the game, and I've been working on my first decently sized cruiser (21,977 mass, 450m long, 77m tall, 69m wide).

    My problem is with the ship's turrets. At the moment it has two main triple barrelled turrets, which deal 600 DPS per barrel (1200 damage per projectile) and have a block penetration of 14.

    Now, I don't really have a point of reference here, but that seems horribly underpowered based on the ship's size...


    so, I guess my question is, would any more experienced players be able to tell me roughly how much DPS / penetration the main guns of a ship this size should deal out?

    Thanks in advance :^D

    Here are some pics if you want a better idea of the ship:
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages
    192
    Reaction score
    203
    That long pointy bow is just crying for some spinal weaponry. Consider, as a rough ballpark figure to just throw out there, a 500 beam/ 500 beam/ 500 ion in the center and dual 300 beam/ 300 beam/ 30 explosives on either side of it, if you can get them to fit. You could also double up on those turrets by putting a pair on the bottom too.

    I'm a newb myself who hasn't really built anything particularly large, so I could be guessing a little offbase size-wise, and I don't know what your power situation is.
     
    Joined
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages
    353
    Reaction score
    162
    It's pretty weak.

    My fighter frame, which is kind of pretty weak too, cause I'm a newb, has 4 cannons with 5k dps (500 dmg per shot) each and 8 missile launchers with 10k damage (222dps). It also fits it all in a 30x30x30 dimensions because I wanted to be able to template it if need be.

    Your ship is 200+ times bigger and should have at the very least 6 times the energy production of my fighter (2 millions of energy per second). So at very least you should have around 150k dps. Or maybe some weapons with very large alpha strike damage. Or both.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Scratchmort
    Joined
    Sep 12, 2017
    Messages
    84
    Reaction score
    31
    Just make the turret barrel parts bigger :-p
    Also consider using cannon cannon with 100% 100% because it will do more block damage. The more damage a projectile does, the bigger the penetration depth does not scale linearly, meaning many small projectiles tend to destroy more blocks than one big one (in the case of cannons).
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Scratchmort
    Joined
    Sep 18, 2014
    Messages
    621
    Reaction score
    448
    Now, I don't really have a point of reference here, but that seems horribly underpowered based on the ship's size...
    You answered yourself. If you feel that there is not enough guns then there is not enough. Also, it's like everything, it depends on the server you are, your opponents, the ship that they fly on and so on.

    As i seems to understand it, your weapons are only on turrets and you have what... 2 of them ? That's clearly not enough. If you would like to have your damages only on turrets then you would need much more of them, at least 12. That's a rough estimatation and clearly it is probably a wrong one. If you want something more accurate to point to, you should have 1/10 of your total block count assigned to weapons, that's an easy and good start.

    An easy test is to spawn your ship as a target practice and shoot at it, look how much time you need to take him down. You should be able to destroy it pretty quickly with all of your firepower if that is not the case then it's not enough. You can also try to download ships from the docks and try against or look at their stats. They're probably not all good examples but it will start to give you a basic idea of what does other players. Some players are better than others at building balanced stuff but hey, that's the joy of starmade.

    Also consider using cannon cannon with 100% 100% because it will do more block damage. The more damage a projectile does, the bigger the penetration depth does not scale linearly, meaning many small projectiles tend to destroy more blocks than one big one (in the case of cannons).
    That is utterly wrong. I would go more in depth of the mechanics but that is completely useless to explain everything as the mechanics will change in not that much time when the weapons update will come out. Understanding weapons will take some time and you better take your time to learn about stuff that will still be the up to date in a few month now.
    Just remember this, the basic state of the sentence that i quote is correct. More projectiles are better than one. However your projectiles need at least to destroy one block of advanced armor in one tick/hit with all of the defensives effects on for this sentence to be correct. If you need some excel to help you, you can take a look here : (Yet another?) weapon spreadsheet

    I don't remember who did a stream showcasing all of the basic stuff about designing a ship for combat and if it's still available to watch. So if someone remember that it would be nice to point it out.
     

    Az14el

    Definitely not a skywanderers dev
    Joined
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages
    848
    Reaction score
    325
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    I'd want a minimum of ~420k dps on that ship to really feel comfortable IF you mean in a "competitive" PvP environment.
    Basically 20;1 dps;total mass is a good minimum to keep in mind. This could be ~10% of your mass in player fired beam-beam-ion, 20;1 right there, or if you're small enough that 10% of your mass in beam-beam-ovd doesn't require a fat stack of power caps that's 50;1 ez, so it's not a huge deal on its own.

    I try to shoot for 30;1 on anything beyond like 10k mass personally, and usually fail & end up more like 25-28, but on under 10k/smaller ships often overshoot because they're generally more energy efficient.

    Elucidator Ion Frigate
    This one is at just over 40;1 dps/mass at 12k mass, and around the lower end of dps I'd imagine a 21k would potentially deal
    Probably better examples of dps;mass optimizations just here on SMDs community content (and definitely better examples of actual dps delivery) mind you but for the sake of comparison.

    tl;dr add 10%+ of your mass in beam-beam-ion (or ovd if really small) somewhere and w/e you think hits blocks hard enough on your turrets and you're at least able to poke peoples shields down at your own size easily, and probably punch a few times over it depending on how your block dmg set up & piloting goes.
     
    Joined
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages
    41
    Reaction score
    50
    Thanks for all the replies, guys! Looks like I've got a bit of reading to do :LOL:

    That long pointy bow is just crying for some spinal weaponry.
    Good idea! The ship was sort of based on HMS Nelson so I hadn't even considered nose-mounted weaponry up until now :-p

    As i seems to understand it, your weapons are only on turrets and you have what... 2 of them ? That's clearly not enough. If you would like to have your damages only on turrets then you would need much more of them, at least 12.
    2 main turrets, there are a few secondaries scattered around, but yup, more firepower needed!

    An easy test is to spawn your ship as a target practice and shoot at it, look how much time you need to take him down. You should be able to destroy it pretty quickly with all of your firepower if that is not the case then it's not enough.
    hm, that sounds pretty good actually! It's a bit of a strange thing with me but I try to design my ships so that they can survive an encounter with themselves, so this would be a good way to kill 2 birds with one stone for me :^D

    IF you mean in a "competitive" PvP environment.
    Basically 20;1 dps;total mass is a good minimum to keep in mind.
    I don't think this ship is really going to end up being anything near a PvP capable ship, although I'm planning on building my next cruiser to be able to hold its own in PvP, so I'll bear that 20:1 tip in mind! Thanks!
     
    Joined
    Sep 18, 2014
    Messages
    621
    Reaction score
    448
    I said tend to be better. Implying that not in all cases.
    By not explaining people will follow what you say without asking themselves why. It will result of them not using correctly this fact. In this case for example replacing current weapons by c/c is a loss in efficiency, not to mention that c/c is a low range weapon.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Arkudo
    Joined
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages
    353
    Reaction score
    162
    2 main turrets, there are a few secondaries scattered around, but yup, more firepower needed!
    Experienced builders seem to use half buried turrets as a means to increase their firepower. So that most of turret weapon blocks are buried inside the ship and the docking port is actually closer to the bottom of the ship (they are like icebergs). With dimensions of your ship you should be able to have a couple of hundred blocks per turret barrel with this approach.
     
    Joined
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages
    41
    Reaction score
    50
    Experienced builders seem to use half buried turrets as a means to increase their firepower. So that most of turret weapon blocks are buried inside the ship and the docking port is actually closer to the bottom of the ship (they are like icebergs). With dimensions of your ship you should be able to have a couple of hundred blocks per turret barrel with this approach.
    ooh, that's a neat trick! I was still stuck in the mindset of weapon barrels go in straight lines :LOL: but I'll definitely give that method a shot (no pun intended)
     
    Joined
    Sep 18, 2014
    Messages
    621
    Reaction score
    448
    I'll repeat myself but take the time to download shells or actual turrets/ships from the community content, there you can borrow a whole lot of good ideas. ;-)
     
    G

    GDPR 302420

    Guest
    As a seasoned PvP vet, here is my "DPS advice" to you and anyone reading this thread.



    Stop using DPS as a way of judging if a ship is "good" or not, DPS is an inflated stat that assumes perfection in your shots and fails to take into consideration all variables that are actually present in combat.


    • If you have an 88k DPS cannon + cannon and you miss every shot, your DPS is 0
    • If you have several missile outputs in a single weapon and some of them get shot down by AMS, your DPS is reduced
    • It assumes you land "optimal" hits on your target all the time
    • AI turrets loose accuracy when firing on a radarjammed target, which reduces their DPS
    • DPS assumes you fire your weapons at the very tick it becomes possible to fire them
    • StarMade's DPS "counters" are bugged to shit and are often wildly innaccurate to what actual DPS is
     

    Nauvran

    Cake Build Server Official Button Presser
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages
    2,343
    Reaction score
    1,194
    • Master Builder Bronze
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Legacy Citizen 10
    As a seasoned PvP vet, here is my "DPS advice" to you and anyone reading this thread.



    Stop using DPS as a way of judging if a ship is "good" or not, DPS is an inflated stat that assumes perfection in your shots and fails to take into consideration all variables that are actually present in combat.


    • If you have an 88k DPS cannon + cannon and you miss every shot, your DPS is 0
    • If you have several missile outputs in a single weapon and some of them get shot down by AMS, your DPS is reduced
    • It assumes you land "optimal" hits on your target all the time
    • AI turrets loose accuracy when firing on a radarjammed target, which reduces their DPS
    • DPS assumes you fire your weapons at the very tick it becomes possible to fire them
    • StarMade's DPS "counters" are bugged to shit and are often wildly innaccurate to what actual DPS is
    should rename it to potential DPS?
     
    Joined
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages
    192
    Reaction score
    203
    • If you have an 88k DPS cannon + cannon and you miss every shot, your DPS is 0
    • If you have several missile outputs in a single weapon and some of them get shot down by AMS, your DPS is reduced
    • It assumes you land "optimal" hits on your target all the time
    • AI turrets loose accuracy when firing on a radarjammed target, which reduces their DPS
    • DPS assumes you fire your weapons at the very tick it becomes possible to fire them
    • StarMade's DPS "counters" are bugged to shit and are often wildly innaccurate to what actual DPS is
    Also - overpenetration is wasted energy, and, no matter how powerful a weapon is it can only destroy the blocks that it hits.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: GDPR 302420

    Az14el

    Definitely not a skywanderers dev
    Joined
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages
    848
    Reaction score
    325
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    Agree'd on some minor points there but uhh, yeah those are kinda why DPS reqs are way more than people think, like those are pretty much the reasons
     
    Joined
    Jan 27, 2016
    Messages
    169
    Reaction score
    195
    I don't pay much attention to the DPS stats, I tend to run more off effect on impact and how fast I can push target ships of different sizes into overheating. I do have a few different weapon set ups I use on my ships.

    A 250 Cannon, 250 Cannon, 250 Punch system is a pretty decent medium autocannon, plus thats seems to be right around the block count it needs to be to take out Advanced Armor with one hit.

    A 250 Beam, 250 Beam, 250 Explosive makes for a nice, accurate long range direct fire weapon. It doesn't do a lot to an armor shell, but it carves nice chunks out of all the juicy systems underneath.

    For smaller turrets, I tend to use the above two systems either singly or in dual mounts.

    If you're really pressed for space, a 100 Cannon, 100 Cannon, 100 Overdrive turret makes a nice compact turret that will tear up hull and standard armor, but doesn't quite have the punch to get through Advanced unless the targets armor pool is depleted. I need to test a 150-150-150 version of this, and see if that will go through AA, but a 450 block system running an overdrive tertiary is starting to get power-prohibitive.

    Now for ship mounted main batteries, I tend to use 4 different weapon combinations determined by the ship's role.

    Beam-Beam-Ion, as big as your power system can handle/you have space. I've gone as small as 1000-1000-1000 and as large as 5K-5K-5k. If you can break the shields of a target, you can kill it. I like to devote roughly 33% of my main weapon blocks here, and I've seen players go as high as 50-75%. I am starting to think I should be making this system larger in future builds.

    Beam-Beam-Explosive Anywhere from 500-500-500 to 5k-5k-5k+. This is a nice big accurate sniper beam. If you get lucky, you can even burnout weapon computers on the target. However, this system is pretty useless versus smaller fighter sized targets.

    Missiles-50% Beam- Punch. I tend to build these in sets of 5 vertical silos, with each silo having 200 Missiles, 100 Beam, 200 Punch for a total system size of 2500 blocks. This is getting into the territory of main missile batteries for ships having 90K+ blocks total.

    Array of Cannon-Cannon-Punch. My personal favorite, Four to Six barrels, each barrel having a 750-750-750 to 1500-1500-1500 combination of systems. This will shred most ships in short order, but this systems is also the riskiest to use, got to get close, and hard to hit with. Especially if the target is fast.

    The best advice I can give is to jump into creative mode, build a giant block of Crystal Armor of roughly 30 x 30 x150, and then build a mix different weapons systems and shoot them into the above mentioned giant brick of transparent armor.

    Or, shameless plug alert, If you want to try some of these out, feel free to grab my 3 most recent ships off the docks. The fighters especially have an interesting little mix of weapons that would be helpful.
     
    Joined
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages
    1,074
    Reaction score
    502
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Top Forum Contributor
    +9000 to this, very helpful to all builders.

    I'm never quite sure how weapon systems will function or how efficient they are. It's good to see some of us have been doing valid testing.
    Just a possible suggestion (if you don't use it already). You can created a docked entity, add an AI modual and it will have a cone shaped field of fire without needing to be a turret. You can put your main ship weapons on these and set the AI to fire at your selected target, and when in the cone they will Auto fire for you. You can use logic to seal them off to stop firing as well when in battle.
    For example (shameless promotion of one of Guthris setups:

    ________________________________________________________________
    Docked entity harbouring a large weapon setup.


    Docked Entities field of fire:


    This allows you to still fire you ships weapons, but have the AI aim for you (which is handy if dealing with lag/at range/you have crap aim like me. It would be nice if we could switch weapons to AI controlled while still piloting the ship.
     

    AtraUnam

    Maiden of crashes
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2013
    Messages
    1,120
    Reaction score
    866
    • Railman Gold
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Wired for Logic Gold
    I usually aim for a 10:1 dps/mass ratio as a bare minnimum for PvP combat. But the reactor system is also likely to hugely change weapon damage so pretty soon your going to just as knowledagble as the rest of us.
     

    Calhoun

    Part-time God
    Joined
    May 26, 2015
    Messages
    872
    Reaction score
    237
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    • Thinking Positive
    My DPS advice is only listen to the advice from people who know what they're talking about.