Docking needs a revamp.

[RoyalWolfe]

I think its high time we stop ignoring the elephant in the game room. it's wrecking the pool tables anyway.

Puns aside I also think its time to start discussing less of the game in the suggestion section. that's why this isn't there, and also its something already in the game so it doesn't belong. I'm not particularly going to rant about docking in general actually. I think ship docking is fine and works as it was intended for.

what I'm going to specifically look at first, is turret docking.

Turrets right now are in a state of chaos I think. I realize I'm going to get all kinds of flame for this, but they clip through the hull of my ship because right now they just rotate any damn way they please without any consideration for objects or collisions with them what so ever. this is going to become a problem when schema has said collision psychics will be implemented eventually. Also at one point I'm not sure of this is true now, but turrets were at one time, firing into their own ships doing damage. this makes for a very poor and buggy system indeed.

It needs to be rethought. turrets need to be limited and made tweak-able to only move and fire in a specified ark of the turret dock its attached to. This will let us systematically build ships around space coverage. which is actually they way real physics seems to force such weapons to function in real life.

Take the real world battleships as an example. they are built in a long hull with turrets in a row of lines across its belly this lets one turret which is on a motorized cam system to turn towards one side or the other and cover both flanks of the ship. This also lets them do this without shooting the ship itself by only turning on one axis (only the horizontal movement). The guns elevation, (the vertical movement.) is made by by moving the barrel only.

This is how I personally think the turrets need to work in star made. two components need to control only one direction at a time. and combined can turn them as they need to to engage targets. a turret on top of a ship should not be able to fire at one beneath it, it just silly, stupidly ugly looking, and really impossibly unfair to the combatants involved. it also makes it impossible to engage a turret ship if you cannot hide from their guns, this is boring for the one using the turrets, and the one in the fighter is outgunned and unfairly out classed. It is also just overall bad for the games combat in general. it kills strategy.

I think I've made my point well on turrets, so I will then move onto another thing I would personally like to see happen. I've seen a suggestion on a magnetic docking. http://starmadedock.net/threads/new-system-of-docking.179/#post-778 this caught my eye. this concept of basically building a no clipping dock area has some gameplay potential.

It would likely need its own set of dock blocks like the ship, and turret docking, has already but it would have the ability to be set to ignore clipping. This mite also require a new system all together. maybe it could have just the docking block. Instead of an the expected enhancer, it could just a have block on the receiving end which just allows the entity to dock regardless of size and shape, and sets the orientation of the docked item by its own facing. this is only a rough idea mind you.

Why would I want that you ask, well think about it. right now regular ship docking leaves a one block wide gap between the dock and the entity its docked to. this looks sloppy and limits what you can dock because the green box must also be clear of obstruction. but if this new dock were to allow one to ignore this gap and just dock to the blocks themselves, you could basically make a ship that separates a section of itself. this could be like saucer separation similar to what star trek did with the galaxy class.

 

[LeChuck652]

I totally agree with your post in all points . The docking system is a crucial element for a game like this and it´s still crappy.
My suggestion would be : forget the enhancers and give the docking block a menue with parameters for the size
and orientation of the docking area.

 

[CyberTao]

Welp, I'mma sound like Dick now, but meh.

makes it impossible to engage a turret ship if you cannot hide from their guns

. This made me laugh almost, the Point of a Turret ship IS Complete Coverage with no Blind spots, its weakness is its Strength. You make Blind spots by Taking out the turrets themselves, or for small ships, Hide in the Blind spot No one seems to notice (up close to the engines in the back). If your too big to hide in there, chances are you should have enough Guns to break some turrets. :/

. As well, the point about Turret barrels moving Vertical and the base only Horizontal (Relatively that is) has been made before; http://oldsite.star-made.org/content/new-turret-design-idea and I still have the same issues about it. That being; How do you make all the Barrels and the Base Track the same Target. Given the Current docking systems, that would require making each item its own entity, Rotating around a point, as it does now.
. Ideally (me to at least), you would have to make the barrels a moving part of an entity (still part of the turret, but can move), which the game cannot do atm, in order to properly share the shields of the base.
. "Turrets" are merely a Separate ship right now. There is no Property change, nor physic change aside from the No-clipping and Broken Turn speed. The main difference is how the Bobby AI reacts (it doesn't try to Fly away for example) and the Core is locked above the Docking Module.

. Which steps into your Next point; Turrets firing "Down" (relatively I assume). Anti Matter Cannons have a 45 degree Firing cone attached to the end of the group; this is what allows you to AIM while in a ship, else you would have to be aiming directly ahead. And Since Turrets are still "ships", they still retain the 45 degree firing cone. Schema Could reduce the firing cone, which would be a nightmare for Larger ships due to turn speeds atm, But would be fairly welcomed in my opinion anyways since they would put empathes on turrets.

. As for the "1 block gap", you are Wrong. Its a mere 1/2 block, and that exists for a reason. See, if an object were to undock without that gap, it would consider its itself to be in a "collision" since it is in contact (Blocks are touching). This would result in said entity being pushed outwards at a slow speed and turned slightly. Without the Gap, undocking in a Carrier with a fairly compact Hanger would be annoying to say the least, more so with Collision Damage, and Turrets would clip even more. There's also the issue that you cant even edit an area (placing blocks) if a docked entity is right up close.
. That being said, I have no idea what the rest of those last paragraphs mean at all, and your Linked post doesn't make sense to me either...

. Those points aside, I think limited Firing arcs for a Turret would be interesting... on a ship. Keep in mind Planetary and Station Turrets also take from the same Turret Properties, and I would prefer if they could still turn 360 degrees freely o -o

. And as a final note; Turrets clipping and firing into your ship is sorta more a design Problem, you CAN Build a ship where it would clip (or barely) by building a 2-5 Block tower, and making a Stub back on the turret (Long and Large Turrets are generally very ugly to me to start with anyways). If something doesnt turn out how you like, or doesnt compare to another ship; Build Better, or Build a Counter.

. I dunno, this has been my 2 cents worth o7 You posted in general discussion, so I assume you wanted to discuss it, ergo; Have something to Brain-nom on *^*

 

[testkil]

schema does hes best to do all things there are so many things he needs to do planets ... bugs... content...

 

[Malacodor]

The thread title is misleading, we're talking about turrets, not docking in general.

As well, the point about Turret barrels moving Vertical and the base only Horizontal (Relatively that is) has been made before; http://oldsite.star-made.org/content/new-turret-design-idea and I still have the same issues about it. That being; How do you make all the Barrels and the Base Track the same Target. Given the Current docking systems, that would require making each item its own entity, Rotating around a point, as it does now.

A) Add a rotator block, so guns can rotate, but are still part of the same entity as the turret base.
B) Make the gun AI communicate with the turret AI with the turret AI as boss who decides which target to attack.

As for the "1 block gap", you are Wrong. Its a mere 1/2 block, and that exists for a reason. See, if an object were to undock without that gap, it would consider its itself to be in a "collision" since it is in contact (Blocks are touching).

Simply making the gap 0.01 blocks wide should solve the problem.

schema does hes best to do all things there are so many things he needs to do planets ... bugs... content...

...and turrets. ;-)
Schema is free to ignore this discussion and do what he wants.

 

[CyberTao]

Keep in Mind Malacodor, I am not saying "Why it wouldn't be possible", I'm saying "why its not possible now". Things that need many additional features added before it is even possible to be implemented are more or less irrelevant. AI will be worked on, seeing as NPC mobs will be able to control a ship and follow you (and May upright replace Bobby AI for the most Part I hear).

Also, the size of the Gap is also irrelevant, since Proper Design choices can hide it easily (see the Lotus), and I prefer a 0.5 visual Gap.

And yes, add a Rotor block :u not like it hasn't been asked for before or anything. I assume there would be some issues with how it would stay Sync'd.

As well, Turrets and Docking are related, too great a change in Turret Docking would affect Fixed Docking :u Additional, any change in AI spawning or Behavior (mobs included) affect Turret AI, since they are still considered a Ship entity, with a few twists.

Long Story Short, There are "solutions", but not all of them are as easy as you may think.

 

[ltmauve]

One of the things about the half-block gap is that if you dock something with a ramp you still have to jump onto the ramp.
Solution to clipping on undock: step 1: dock ship, with bottom of the ship on the surface (gap of zero) step 2: on undock, teleport the ship up .001 blocks or whatever will safely prevent collisions.
Also, the "cannot build blocked by entity" is ridiculously conservative, sometimes I will get blocked by a parent ship/station with well over half a block of clearance.

 

[RoyalWolfe]

OK look lets get past the gap problem. my original suggestion where we add a new docking method solves the problem, but it also lets us keep what we already have so no problem. I'm not saying get rid of the gap, why kill it if you want it to be optional. and besides why not if you can do it. this will just give us a smooth docking that lets us seamlessly connect two entities and do it with out having clipping or the build dock obstructed. its technically not even docking actually.

what it is is coupling the thing to the hull, basically an undockable escape pod. like I said before the saucer separation simple. if it can work why not add on than try fix what's not broken.

 

[Elit3]

It also needs to be made so that docking blocks connect with other docking blocks, not with Cores.

 

[MineCatFTW]

Docking does need a revamp, and this could work if implemented properly.

 

[ltmauve]

I put this on the old forums:

Suggestion on how to implement this (Wall of text)
Implementation: Have two orientable docking blocks: turret docking blocks and standard docking blocks.

When placed in a group, they have an "output" like weapons. This is the block in the "frontmost" layer of the group, and it is chosen the same way the weapon outputs are chosen. The output can also be set manually, like weapons, with "R" in astronaut mode.

Standard docking ports dock output to output. Turret docking ports dock with the core over the output. Both types only dock with themselves.

Groups of docking blocks are activatable in the hotbar. When a group of docking blocks is activated, transparent "blocks" appear over each output on nearby ships. The markers are green is the ship can securely dock, yellow if the ship can insecurely dock, and red if the ship cannot dock. Meanwhile, a blue block appears over the output of the activated group. Docking occurs when the blue block intersects with a green block. The ship attempting to dock rotates to the nearest 90 degrees and locks one block above the other docking module. This "nearest 90 degrees" is how a turret's default orientation is chosen.

A ship can securely dock if its mass is under 15 * effective blocks. Effective blocks is number of blocks in the smaller of the docking groups times 2, plus half of the extra blocks in the larger group. A ship can insecurely dock with 30 * effective blocks. Insecure docking means that when either ship accelerates or is hit, the docking breaks.

If the both docking groups are the same size, either ship can be flown. If one docking group is smaller, the ship with that docking group cannot be flown. Docking does add mass to the to the ship. The turn rate is the lower of the two ships.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

I was also thinking about fixing current system of the turrets. Well, that's not an easy task.

Right now to have a turret, which could actually do some damage, we need to build a massive thruster-less collision-less ship and dock it to the surface of our ship. And that's, imo, wrong.

My idea is inspired by IRL system of turrets on battleships.

Turrets on battleships are usually few stores high, but we can't see this, because most part of it is hidden inside the hull. There are parts responsible for storage of ammo, reloading, etc., and the surface part of turret is responsible for turning around, aiming and shooting.


So why not translate this into Starmade?

Then we end up with something like this:

I know i'm not the best cubism artist​

Sooo yeahh...

Well it has its cons and pros.

Pros:

• We don't have floating nearby turrets, instead we can build turrets which are parts of the ship
  
• Overall better looking turrets
• As the body of turret is fixed to its place, there might be no space between it and the body of ship. So players could build corridors leading to/going through the turrets, so manning the turrets would be a matter of travelling inside a ship, rather than going outside or building different weird stuff to get below the turrets core.
• ROTORS
• We can keep current system of docking turrets (personally i prefer one based on the mass)
  
• The turret could only shoot from it's external (connected to rotor) part
• As it brokes the current system of turrets and takes away much space in ships, there could be a new mechanism, that players piloting the ship could shoot from these turrets.
  And by this i mean, when piloting the ship, certain turrets would be aiming at the spot where the player is aiming, and shooting while player is clicking LMB.
  It'd be nice if we had also a way to choose, during the flight/battle, which turrets are used by pilot, and which have an AI on.

Mechanisms and changes needed:

- Fixed turrets body (without space between turret module and the turret)
- Rotors
- Turrets after being destroyed shouldn't be undocked (as it would result in HUUUGE lags), instead they should still be on place, but not working and with the overheat timer. After timer goes off, they can explode/turn into debris.
Adding the idea of being able to repair overheating cores with handheld things, we could have a crew of NPCs wandering around ships and repairing damaged turrets


Cons:

• It'd broke ships with current system of turrets
• It'd take much space in ships hulls
• Outside parts of turrets would still require to have plenty of weapon blocks to deal much damage.
• Ship's weapon system would be able only to shoot straight as it wouldn't have rotors. OR WOULD IT?

EDIT:

Well, that was pretty easy, i'm ashamed i didn't thought about it earlier. Solution to breaking current turret system:


Just automatically add a rotor under every turrets core. Rotor would be fixed to its position but the turret could still rotate 180^o horizontally.


That's it. Thank You.

 

[ltmauve]

Why have the system where you dock a fixed object with a turret on it on your ship when you can just fix the turret on your ship directly?

 

[rece ktore leczo]

because completely fixed turrets won't shoot at different directions

 

[CyberTao]

• It'd broke ships with current system of turrets

And that is why it probably wont be done :u It sounds like an interesting idea, but if you really wanted the inside-the-ship base, you could do it.

I had used a fixed docking Platform with 1.2 e/s recharge and then docked turrets to it, which ideally would create a Energy supplement. Meaning I would not need Power in the turret, nor would it draw from the main ship :u and acts sorta like a modular shield plate. Problem is Chain docking is buggy and I ran into the "I can shoot myself and it hurts" issue.

As the body of turret is fixed to its place, there might be no space between it and the body of ship

This would cause another issue, since the space is needed :u to a degree anyways. That Degree being; You can't build right up next to a docked entity, which may be easy initially, cause Build then dock the turret after. The Problem lies if that hallway was damaged and the turret was not :u there would be no way to fix the end without docking it, which you couldnt cause there wouldnt be any room.

I dunno, ish an interesting idea, but considering I dont see Schema adding Ammunition for weapons (Cause I dont see why the types of weapons we have need Ammo o-o energy based and all), you could just add a Power Supplement Platform, and then Apply the OP's suggestion on top of it - 3- If done right, you could increase the damage of your turrets and add that realistic point you want.

http://i.imgur.com/uUOQ4m8.png -Turret on a Platform awaiting to be docked

 

[NeonSturm]

Personally, I like the idea of having ancient ships from previous builds with special properties.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

I've made already turrets which have most of their body hidden in the hull of ship but it doesn't look and work really well. Plus there is a lag once that turrets got destroyed. I know there is a possibility to firstly dock a ship and then dock a turret onto this ship but i'd rather have an ability to do so without contriving. And it wouldn't work as good.

Space between turret and ship wouldn't be needed if we could start building turrets directly above the turret docking module, so it would be another entity, but with blocks at the same level as the ship ones and without collision problems as it'd be a fixed entity.

I don't clearly understand the problem with damaged hallway.


The real problem lies with breaking current turret system. As i can understand the reasons of holding new ideas because of that issue, i think that as the game is in alpha, players should be prepared that as the game is being developed, their old projects would get outdated. And the Devs should've told that to the Community so now they wouldn't need to go for compromises, as it is planned with thruster system.
I'm not saying about breaking everyones builds every month but i wouldn't mind one or two big updates breaking old systems, but giving instead new, much more enjoyable systems.
There might be a poll or discuss whether we would like new, overhauled mechanics or just polishing the ones which already exist.

 

[Captain_Boroski]

'm not saying about breaking everyones builds every month but i wouldn't mind one or two big updates breaking old systems, but giving instead new, much more enjoyable systems.
There might be a poll or discuss whether we would like new, overhauled mechanics or just polishing the ones which already exist.

Agreed, better revamp a design at this stage rather than build on top of it for several months, then decide to do overhaul and rudely kick everyone out of their established comfort zone, changing the way the ships function and are built.

 

[CyberTao]

The Question is, Why Break Turrets to start with? To Cater to an concept which you can already Mimic? Starmade is a Sandbox game. All it is suppose to do is give us tools. Everything else is up to us to figure out and do. I Greatly oppose your idea of adding a base area to turrets, simply because you can already do so, with about the same functionality of what your suggesting. It would also make Replacing Turrets a Giant hassle cause of the lack of a Gap, unless you wanted to build block it.

Also, if the gap is too annoying, use that ignore_docking command :u there are a few servers that also ignore docking, so that'd work fine I would think.

And Keep in mind, you would still need enhancers to a degree for that docking box :u break those and you'd get Lag (same as Chain docking concept) and removing Enhancers would basically be the same as enabling Ignore_docking.

And I'm fine with features changing, like Thruster and Power formulas, since those would have balancing effects, same as wells. Turrets? Sure, if there's a valid gain to changing it :u
I'm just saying you can already do that ingame, and that's all you need. The game is a sandbox, ergo you are suppose to think outside the box :u not Grab a collection of ingame features and ask to make them an official thingie.

As for the OP's suggestion, Rotors/Motors would probably work best - 3- but given how often Turrets bug out, I wouldn't recommend Schema adding something that complex (I assume it would be) till much closer to Beta.

 

[Elit3]

The Question is, Why Break Turrets to start with? To Cater to an concept which you can already Mimic? Starmade is a Sandbox game. All it is suppose to do is give us tools. Everything else is up to us to figure out and do. I Greatly oppose your idea of adding a base area to turrets, simply because you can already do so, with about the same functionality of what your suggesting. It would also make Replacing Turrets a Giant hassle cause of the lack of a Gap, unless you wanted to build block it.

Also, if the gap is too annoying, use that ignore_docking command :u there are a few servers that also ignore docking, so that'd work fine I would think.

And Keep in mind, you would still need enhancers to a degree for that docking box :u break those and you'd get Lag (same as Chain docking concept) and removing Enhancers would basically be the same as enabling Ignore_docking.

And I'm fine with features changing, like Thruster and Power formulas, since those would have balancing effects, same as wells. Turrets? Sure, if there's a valid gain to changing it :u
I'm just saying you can already do that ingame, and that's all you need. The game is a sandbox, ergo you are suppose to think outside the box :u not Grab a collection of ingame features and ask to make them an official thingie.

As for the OP's suggestion, Rotors/Motors would probably work best - 3- but given how often Turrets bug out, I wouldn't recommend Schema adding something that complex (I assume it would be) till much closer to Beta.

You must understand that is isn't only Turrets at question here. The entire docking system is flawed, requiring your core to be completely exposed to dock.