Devblog 18th July, 2017 - End Goal Document Part 2

    Discussion in 'Game News' started by schema, Jul 18, 2017.

    1. alterintel

      alterintel moderator

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      If we actually are at a point in development where "End Goals" are being discussed openly, then why all the secrecy? Are you guys/gals just afraid of not being able to deliver? Afraid of setting expectations too high? afraid the player base might get disapointed or disillusioned? It's probably too late for that.

      Not quite sure exactly how your going to implement your plan, so your waiting until you figure it out before you tell us what the plan is? LET US HELP YOU FIGURE IT OUT. Its hard to make big desisions. Especially when those decisions represent thousands of hours worth of coding. Please stop procrastinating with minor features like race gates, cargo rails, and radial menus. The amount of time spent on procrastination code has probably already exceaded any amount of possible waisted time on coding based on a wrong decision.

      Please let us help you. Lets get this game playable before we miss a possible influx of players this fall.
       
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    2. Criss

      Criss Social Media Director

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      It's sort of just a bad approach. There are things we all want to do for the game, but timelines and realistic expectations / unexpected problems can get in the way and suddenly you are waiting another year for all of the features we could talk about in these blogs.

      However we are trying to communicate a little farther out. I think the power proposal talks are evidence of that. When we finalize exactly what we want on the next update we will likely bring up similar more in-depth blogs.
       
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    3. therimmer96

      therimmer96 The Cake Network Staff Senior button unpusher

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      Wrong.

      Confirming a timeline would be the wrong thing to do, but actually describing the mechanics that'll create this game that you'd like wouldn't be. Right now, you sound like wishful thinkers, who know what they want but not how to do it. The community is losing faith. Even if Schine doesn't want to attract new members, surely keeping existing members happy is a crap idea.

      Create something like a MoSCoW, which will detail the features that Schine believes the game Must have, Should have, Could have and Won't have. Then, create descriptions on how these mechanics will ideally work. Then, release to the public. As you get closer and more sure to how certain things will work, create proposals like the power one.

      We all know that nothing is concrete, game development is hard. But you supposedly have these documents already, and so it makes no sense to sit on them while keeping the community in the dark. The community is able to help. The power proposal should be proof of that. The first one was crap in comparison to the new one.

      Take a look at Star Citizen. They're being super transparent. They've got posts describing the ideal ways mechanics are going to work, they hold shows where they get developers to answer questions about the development of the game and they post internal development schedules for the upcoming release. The community doesn't ostracise them for it. Schine is much smaller, and far less controversial. If they can do it, you have no reason.

      It's time to stop treating the community like it's just a bunch of bickering children who want to see shiny things. I mean, we are, but we're also your audience. You're making the game for us. The ones who'll not only buy copies of the game, but also fund and operate the services that it relies on.

      Its time for schine to start getting it right.

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Criss. For the love of god, reply to your damn thread. You're the bloody Social Media guy for Schine, yet you can't seem to muster posting a few images to your own thread on the communities primary point of contact with the company. Even if you can't make a proper post, just say something. People understand that real life can be bitch, but you can't just turn a blind eye to it while replying elsewhere on the site. Or perhaps Schine should be looking for someone else to fill your role.
       
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    4. ResonKinetic

      ResonKinetic SPICY hot dog child

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      notice how no one of consequence is responding to the posts with the most substance

      less planning more programming lol
       
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    5. StormWing0

      StormWing0 Leads the Storm

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      o_O Dear me why are people ripping into these poor devs, just be happy they aren't trying to intentionally murder their own game and try to civilly help them on the right track without stabbing them to death. XD
       
    6. tn44

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      ^ if you have to ask why, you're not paying attention

      On to the main message. To any and all members of Schine, please follow through with this post until the end, no matter how accusatory or generally toxic it may seem to be. Hopefully it will be worth the effort.

      I'm here, goodness knows why, because the people who are mad about all of this aren't wrong. I have not actively participated in playing, discussing, or even thinking about this game in... years? During that time I HAVE patiently tried waiting to see how the game progresses, and I can safely say that for all of the needless additions and changes to minor things like logic... nothing has really improved in a substantial way.

      The new power system sounds like the first solid and worthwhile update to be thought about in a while, let alone implemented. The last time was when npc factions were being worked on, and those were never finished. The dev team is constantly adding small things or implementing important features only halfway or worse. Things should be finished before they move on, because the result of not doing so is a game full of half-features that don't quite work as promised. Player and NPC fleets, weapon combinations widely known to be useless which receive no tweaks... The reason we often get for these things being done is that they're 'waiting for other features that will integrate with this such and such feature'. If everybody else is anything like me, we're tired of hearing this and we know it's bullshit. When was the last time an unfinished feature was later touched on in combination with a new feature that it was apparently 'waiting on to be finished' or whatever nonsense. Yeah, doesn't sound familiar.

      This game is plagued by horrible gameplay design issues and all I see anybody from the dev team talking about are vague ideas or small stuff that could and really should wait until after the major features are complete. Logic didn't even need to EXIST until the basics were down, but there are still consistent updates to logic but not gameplay elements.

      -The first person camera is bad. It's just bad. Either give us seats and give us free cam movement while piloting, or find an alternative. Camera blocks are necessary, but also quite terrible in their current implementation, so is viewing from the ship's core. Essentially having a static PoV does not work, it's ugly and jarring and makes gameplay a nuisance.
      -The third person camera is even worse. Do I need to even talk about this? Any space game that includes a third person camera could serve as a decent example. The camera should not be fixed directly BEHIND the entity. It should be displaced above the ship, and should give free range of motion without requiring you to stare at your ship from odd angles. (talking about the current 'third person free cam') Fixing this will make third person gameplay viable, and will be especially helpful for capital ships
      -Turrets should have a setting to fire toward the direction of the third person free cam noted above
      -Add a graphical interface option for shields and hp to the display blocks, rather than only numeric. A simple hp bar is fine. Add a speed indicator and other necessary functions as well. Add an option to add/remove HUD elements from first person flight, while all would be enabled on third person flight (for obvious reasons)

      These, honestly, are not huge things (for the most part) that should have been prioritized a very very long time ago. I think a lot of the anger and disappointment stems from the fact that the core game feels clunky and never receives much improvement. This latest build mode addon looks like a nice quality of life update, but building is ABSOLUTELY NOT the weak point of the game at this time. Building works fine, and has always worked fine. Please please please stop working on building already holy fucking hell. Make the game fun to play, easy to interface with, and overall more natural. I promise it will improve the experience by leaps and bounds.

      So, with all that negativity, I'm sure it's easy as developers to think I'm just mad and ragging on you because you didn't do what I want. But no, that simply isn't the case. I'm trying to be helpful, so I will hope this message will be taken to heart. I have 280 hours logged into this game on steam, and that is long AFTER I stopped playing this game actively. It's probably less than 5% of my total time spent in this game, most of which was long before it ever saw a steam release. So maybe I don't have a very good grasp of the game as it is now, but I follow the development closely enough even if I do not test it out. I care about what happens to this game, and I stand behind Schine even when they make absolutely no sense, seem to have no sense of priorities, and continue to drop vague and muddled information that is hard to give any feedback on.

      If you want us, the players, to be able to help in any meaningful way, stop doing this. Everybody else has already said it, but the point really needs to be hammered in. Tell us things, real, meaningful things. The plans for the power update are, as far as I'm concerned, a dream come true. This is what happens when you ASK. So please, don't implement it halfway and leave it for 'later'. I don't care if this one update takes months, it's important and should be finished properly. Oh yeah, and then finish fleet AI and maybe fix individual ship AI so they actually mean something.

      To try to end on a positive note, I'm glad you're still working on this game. I'm glad you're still trying (even if you seem confused about what you're actually trying to do). I think there are a lot of former players such as myself who would love to see this game come back and come back strong. I have to emphasize, focus on the core aspects, even things like exploration should come secondary to ship controls and camera function. Things like AI and weapon systems. Things like power, which I can't stress enough that you finally seem to have a good handle on and should learn from the process used to get to that point.

      I could go on all day about why this game is really cool, but no longer much fun to play, but hopefully these things will suffice.
       
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    7. Malacodor

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      Have you ever worked on something big? The build mode improvements were definitely needed. The power update will require massive overhauls of most or even all existing ships.
       
    8. Lecic

      Lecic Convicted Lancake Abuser

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      This. Every time I feel like Schine has reached rock bottom they somehow manage to plummet off another cliff. If the proposal talks taught us anything it is that Schine absolutely needs to open up major additions to public discussion long before code on it starts. You guys proved you can be transparent and that it is good for the game and community, so why are you doing this cloak and dagger bullshit again?
       
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    9. Deathstroke

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      Can't you double tap left shift? It will give you the ability to have a "free cam" or a fully movable camera. Or maybe am I not understanding?
      I totally agree
      This is what most people want but dosen't seem to happen.
       
      #69 Deathstroke, Jul 21, 2017
      Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
    10. StormWing0

      StormWing0 Leads the Storm

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      I'd say we have most of the building tools we need. The last thing I can think of is being able to spawn an existing BP of something on or in the area of a docking point. If the BP has multiple docking points we would be able to rotate the entity between those docking points or just tell it to float off to the side of it so we can dock it manually if we're picky.

      The other thing is some kind of shielding for defense against sun damage but that could be easily done by telling normal shields to block it or tank it.

      Not sure what else we're missing but that's about it and maybe the shipyard related stuff. :-p
       
    11. kiddan

      kiddan Cobalt-Blooded Bullet Mirror

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      I believe what tn44 was talking about was a camera that was above the piloted ship when zoomed-out. Right now you have to free look downwards a bit to see in front of the ship your piloting from third-person.
       
    12. StormWing0

      StormWing0 Leads the Storm

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      Oh we're also still missing a way to move the core of a ship. Guessing that'd be a good creative mode and shipyard function. :)
       
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    13. Ithirahad

      Ithirahad Arana'Aethi

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      He means a functional free cam, that allows you to actually aim, lock it in place at whatever angle, still turn your ship while in free cam mode, etc.

      Current free cam (in conjunction with camera zoom) is only good for screenshots or a quick look around.
       
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    14. Criss

      Criss Social Media Director

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      We aren't.

      We haven't gotten to the next proposal yet, which would be our desired changes for the universe and how we will create interesting space. We are putting that together now and have been for a while. It's a lot to tackle. It involves components that touch on a lot of other game elements such as factions, exploration, trade, hostiles, ores etc. When we have that proposal for you we can talk, but these dev blogs are not that. These are for the people that genuinely don't know where StarMade is going.
       
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    15. Comr4de

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      Any idiot can point to somewhere on a map, it takes a different kind of man to get there. It's been three years of map pointing, grandiose plans, and awkward shuffling. Y'all have burned through your rope, these responses should not be surprising to you.

      Update your damn thread criss.
       
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    16. Zylofan

      Zylofan Dirty Rper

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      Nice read, keep up the good work guys!

      ( Try to not let to much of the salt get to you. )
       
    17. Deathstroke

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      Ok, I was wrong
       
    18. Drumboy168

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      I think a big crux of the issue at hand is the repeated issuing of plans, and then the changing of them.

      We've had many planned features, timelines, roadmaps, etc. set up for the games future, only for them to later on be dismissed, or addressed. That's not to say I don't understand-I do, and I know you guys want to make the best game you can.

      It just seems like people, (not necessarily myself), are starting to feel like the long term dev. and dev. goals on this game are starting to jerk them around.
       
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    19. PLIX

      PLIX Thats XCOM baby!

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      Side question will space whales still be the Half-Life 3 of starmade
       
    20. cdl3050

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      You forgot to mention: "Farmer" and "Rancher"

      There is a tremendous amount of interactable content that could easily be added to StarMade without having to worry about any outside dependencies or thought-intensive balance issues.
      1. One Planet type at a time: Add inventory items: "Seeds" "Seedlings" "Young Plants" "Flowering Plants" and "Fruiting Plants"
      2. One Planet type at a time: Add Placeable 'blocks' for: "Seeds" "Seedlings" "Young Plants" "Flowering Plants" and "Fruiting Plants"
      3. One Planet type at a time: Add "Plant Seed" and "Growing the Plant" game mechanics.
      4. One Planet type at a time: Add inventory items: "Fruits" "Vegetables" "Herbs"
      5. Add "Harvest the Plant" game mechanics. (In that a Fruiting Plant should have multiple products: The Fruit, Seeds and Leaves/Stems)
      6. Add Crafting Recipes so that we can make Consumable items out of these plant products.
      7. Add NPC consumption game mechanics so that NPC's would continually buy Plant Products and player-manufactured Consumables.
      8. Add Rare-Decorative Plants (steps 1-7) so that they are carefully position/distributed throughout the Galaxy
      9. Repeat 1-8 with Animals. It may take a week or two per step per planet type, but it will be well worth it.
      Step 8 will greatly add on to the Exploration 'role.' We need something interesting to find. In my case, I want to find rare plants and animals that have no bearing on the Building part of game play.

      Why do you discount the immense value of interesting Flora and Fauna?
      The Space Spiders that I occasionally encounter are Super Awesome and I Greatly wish that there was More Flora and Fauna to See, monsters included.

      Please put more thought into the value of Agriculture and Wild Flora and Fauna.

      Thank You for Reading.
       
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