Dev build crafting overhaul discussion

[Comr4de]

The current crafting system is a re-working/re-imagining of starmades original crafting system from about 2 years ago, but much easier to work with.

Which was the best incarnation of the crafting system IMO

I'm very familiar with the DEV builds, block config and block behavior. A good TXT editor can modify huge portions of the config files at once. As I said, I've completely re-worked the crafting system on my own in about an hour. You only really need to modify the top and bottom of the tree, the way it's set up, the middle fills itself out.

What the fuck is your secret, it took BDLS and I at least a day's worth of work to do the NHC block set

 

[flpsantoss]

I have yet to test the crafting system in the new dev, but from what you guys said, i can see something.

1. The way the system is built, each server can have his own crafting tree and adjust it by the needs

2. As Funnybunny14 said, some recipes need to be look to have a bit of realism, because no one want to take a couple metal plates and turn it in power generators

 

[timethatswasted]

Which was the best incarnation of the crafting system IMO


What the fuck is your secret, it took BDLS and I at least a day's worth of work to do the NHC block set

Well I spend way more time thinking about it then I should.

I use a combination of EditPad Pro and the included block config modding tool that Schema includes in the game.

I have to say, the improvements Schema has made to the block editing tool are fantastic.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I'm really not sure why you are being so confrontational Bunny. I didn't disagree with you and in fact reaffirmed your point that it should be simple and added in my thoughts on why.

The current crafting system is a re-working/re-imagining of starmades original crafting system from about 2 years ago, but much easier to work with.

I'm very familiar with the DEV builds, block config and block behavior. A good TXT editor can modify huge portions of the config files at once. As I said, I've completely re-worked the crafting system on my own in about an hour. You only really need to modify the top and bottom of the tree, the way it's set up, the middle fills itself out.

The only time you need to re-do the entire config is when a line has been added or removed from each block. And even so, a good txt editor lets you deal with that in a matter of minuets.

When I say I want a custom factory I want to be actually be able to set one up via the block config.

That way I can have a factory that only admins can spawn and when you put a specific item in it you get a specific thing. That way I could create a "reward box" where people find item X and take it to spawn, put it in the box and it spits out a pre-determined reward.

You realize that it no longer just is a case of changing the blocks that get used inbetween the steps, since there are no more blocks inbetween the steps? You say you know the dev build, yet nothing you say applies to it. Have you even looked at the new system? Seriously, don't say you can easily redo the entire crafting system just by having a good txt editor. Because frankly, you'll still have to go through at least 300 different blocks. Even the new modding API can't help you if the entire system isn't to your liking.

Just a 'why you can't simply edit a the first and last blocks' bit:
Only hulls have long crafting trees. The other blocks only have 1 layer of the tree, with a layer of metal alloy mesh + crystal circuit, or a layer of metal alloy mesh/crystal circuit + capsules, or a layer of capsules + capsules.

Examples of current recipes:

1. crystal circuits + capsules gives a computer
2. Crystal circuits + metal alloy mesh gives a power reactor module
3. Capsules + capsules give an effect computer

As you can see the only inbetween items are capsules, metal mesh alloys and crystal circuits. Please explain how you suggest changing this in just 2 hours. I feel you need at least a day to get the recipes you want.

 

[OdraNoel]

so i jsut downloaded the next dev build (0.1727) and right off the bat, still unable to craft ingots and crystals

also the factories are now craftable....but each factory is only able to craft it self.... >.<

so you need an advanced factory to make an advanced factory....see my problem here? sorry if i sound mean or rude, but its hard to properly judge the crafting system while main recipies and stuff are still missing. ill keep reporting my findings tho.

 

[timethatswasted]

Which was the best incarnation of the crafting system IMO


What the fuck is your secret, it took BDLS and I at least a day's worth of work to do the NHC block set

It occures to me that you guys did all that editing back in .v9? using all the physical recipes right? Yeah that must have been hell, never even bothered trying to do it that way lol We just made all the Random recipes cost gold and silver and then made it hard to get.

The way I do it is to sperate all the block categories ( ship, hull ect ) with page breakes so I can edit large related sections at once without messing up other sections. Then it's just a flurry of copy, pasting and using command functions to insert stuff.

so i jsut downloaded the next dev build (0.1727) and right off the bat, still unable to craft ingots and crystals

also the factories are now craftable....but each factory is only able to craft it self.... >.<

so you need an advanced factory to make an advanced factory....see my problem here? sorry if i sound mean or rude, but its hard to properly judge the crafting system while main recipis and stuff are still missing. ill keep reporting my findings tho.

I noticed that too, they must have loaded up the wrong config or something. It would be nice to see fewer capsules thrown at end products and more manufactured goods.

You realize that it no longer just is a case of changing the blocks that get used inbetween the steps, since there are no more blocks inbetween the steps? You say you know the dev build, yet nothing you say applies to it. Have you even looked at the new system? Seriously, don't say you can easily redo the entire crafting system just by having a good txt editor. Because frankly, you'll still have to go through at least 300 different blocks. Even the new modding API can't help you if the entire system isn't to your liking.

Just a 'why you can't simply edit a the first and last blocks' bit:
Only hulls have long crafting trees. The other blocks only have 1 layer of the tree, with a layer of metal alloy mesh + crystal circuit, or a layer of metal alloy mesh/crystal circuit + capsules, or a layer of capsules + capsules.

Examples of current recipes:

1. crystal circuits + capsules gives a computer
2. Crystal circuits + metal alloy mesh gives a power reactor module
3. Capsules + capsules give an effect computer

As you can see the only in between items are capsules, metal mesh alloys and crystal circuits. Please explain how you suggest changing this in just 2 hours. I feel you need at least a day to get the recipes you want.

Oy... Bunny... your not getting it...

Still off of your original subject...

Since you were so adament that I was somehow mistaken I went back and looked again and the DEV build from today to see if I missed something.

The only thing that has changed as of the most recent DEV build is you can assign a block to a specific factory and the recipes for blocks have changed. The way the overall system works is still the same.

I AGREE with you that the system is a bit wonky, but it is a WIP and Calibri has asked for our opinions. AT no point did I say you were wrong in anyway, so I don't get why you are freaking out. An extra step to the crafting system would be great, in fact what I did was add a number of extra steps.

You are adding context to my post that I did not say and I don't know if you fully understand the concept of the crafting tree. Ores and Shards are at the bottom. Mesh and circuits are in the middle, and Cannon blocks are at the top. You edit the top: say cannons need fewer crystals, then you need fewer shards over all to make cannons. It's a trickle down effect. You edit the top it directly effect the bottom, you edit the bottom it directly effects the top. I have not commented on the current system AT ALL, nor am I defending it. I'm just saying what is possible.

When I talk about adjusting the "top" and "bottom" of the crafting tree I am referring to what I personally did to change it. The system I created uses Ingots, solid Crystals and various Circuits to make the final products. So as a rough example a Cannon was made of a Blue ingot, Blue crystal and a blue circuit node. I'm editing the end products by add intermediate products, not every block in the game. I want to state that this would be an advanced set-up, not good for default versions of the game.

I could sit here and give a tutorial on text editing the config file but I have no interest in doing that. I also don't understand your logic in telling me I can't do something I have already done. When I say it can be done quickly I'm talking about the actual editing, not the planning and preparation. Just because I can do it quickly doesn't mean anyone can. Just in the same way I could never be the Magical Coding Feline which is Schema :D

Please excuse any spelling or grammar errors as I am quite sleep at this time heh

 

[OdraNoel]

ok guys another little update, .1728 DEV was just uploaded. factories can now all be crafted by the previous factory so you can get all three without having to go through a shop

ingots and crystals still arent in, but im sure they will be added any moment now. ill report back if i find any more missing recipes, but so far i think thats it.[DOUBLEPOST=1412816979,1412816505][/DOUBLEPOST]also i agree with you @timethatswasted in that it would be cool to see more prefabricated items in the final tier recipes rather then just capsules. the colored circuits and motherboards are perfect for this role and i had assumed that was their original purpose. but so far they only seem to be used for decorative purposes.[DOUBLEPOST=1412817302][/DOUBLEPOST]ok so the recipies for paint also are not in. they too are required to make the various colored hulls. (you basically make a grey hull and then paint it in the color you want.)[DOUBLEPOST=1412817624][/DOUBLEPOST]also @FunnyBunny14 maybe you should change the title of the thread to something like, dev build crafting overhaul discussion or something like that. it might get more people to view the thread.

 

[BillGHero]

Ok. It's taken allot of typing, reading what I typed, and then condensing to really evaluate this 1727 dev build.


I really like this game, and the dev team. I feel that this game and it's makers have more potential than I've seen in a very long time. That makes it hard for me to criticize. But here goes.

This crafting system is being rushed.

Case in point, they created a new basic hull recipe that requires paint, but haven't bothered to make a new recipe for the paint itself. That is a huge foundational oversight. The only way to get paint at this point is to use the previous crafting system to scam it by selling the recipe cards back to the shop.

Another case in point, they JUST created new intermediate manufacturing blocks like the motherboards and charged circuits. Yet they have, as far as I can tell, completely left them out of these newest recipes. An that is a shame because these blocks lent a really good feel to the new factory system. Plus having them allowed for an easier way to control the complexity and resource cost of the recipes.

One more observation. Several of the 1723 release recipes required excessive quantities of material, but many of these dev release recipes go way beyond that. Which tells me this issue is a trend, not just a fluke. Having played the recent Release builds for a few dozen hours in a populated server, I know how long it takes to mine asteroids and planets and how much material you get for your effort. It doesn't look like the devs are even aware of how badly skewed the effort vs reward ratios are with this new set of recipes.


So there's my view.


p.s. I know it's not a crafting issue but, could somebody please fix the issue where you are displaced 5 to 15 meters when ever you log back into the game?

 

[OdraNoel]

This crafting system is being rushed.

you know i really didnt want to say it, cuz i have much respect and admiration for schine team and all they have done. (and lets not forget they are also doing a TON of stuff in the background we dont hear about, so they are working at maximum capacity. and theres only so much they can humanly do) but i too got the sense that it feels rushed, or that not so much thought went into the recipes, as previously. i think they were going one way and then suddenly changed course. (hence circuits and motherboards not being used)

i actually made a video about all these things a couple of days ago, ill go ahead and post it again here for reference. my main point really was to balance things out around how much recourses you get from ASTEROIDS not necessarily planets. and i came up with a nerf for the vast quantities of resources from planets. (salvage cannons cant work on anything with an atmosphere, and something like a buildcraft quarry or something other mechanic that requires you to land on a planet to get at its resources, rather then drilling from orbit) i feel like things are being balanced more towards the amount of resources locked away in planets rather then asteroids, when i really feel things should be going the other way.

again we are at a situation where you will really have to mine hundreds of asteroids to get all your systems. and i get the feeling this is being done because everyone makes huge mining arrays that can tear up planets in 20 mins. we need to prevent planets from being torn up, rather then adjusting recipes to accommodate for people planet harvesting.

i really recommend you guys watch my video, its a wee bit long at 20 mins, but as far as i know im one of the few guys thats ONLY been playing "crafting only" and as such have gotten a pretty good feel for the crafting system, and i make a few points here that i really feel should be addressed before finalizing the recipes.

Spoiler: crafting system opinions video

 

[Neon_42]

I think this is a step in the right direction. Some balancing still needs to occur in terms of numbers. Some of the recipes make sense, which I like, but now some of them seem too easy, or cost strange amounts of raw materials, just raw materials.I would like to see more interesting recipes. Something in between the old and new system maybe? For example creating cannons could go something like this( numbers left to the devs):

Varat crystal + Hital ore> Varat storage node> cannons

Varat crystal + circuit > Varat processor > cannon comp

All weapons could follow this form based on color. This way the decorative blocks are still used and would serve the purpose of balancing the recipes, instead of just stupid numbers of raw resources.

 

[DaveC9000]

I've only been playing StarMade for a few days so I have no experience with the previous iterations of the crafting system. Since I have no basis of comparison I'm judging this one based on its own merits. I thought it was pretty good considering the large amount of craftable stuff this game has. It was easy to figure out what I needed to do to create the thing that I wanted. I was able to make some lighting and doors right away (keep in mind that I have no idea what I'm doing so this is an epic achievement for me). Some of the advanced stuff had a high resource cost, but even being the noob that I am I still understood what I would have to do to create them. I'm sure if I started strip-mining planets from orbit then of course that might unbalance the system, but I didn't do that. I went down to a planet and built a factory building. I mined stuff myself while exploring the planet. I did these things because it's fun. What I'm saying is that if you make the system expensive and complicated to hinder people who devour asteroids and eat planets you might also ruin it for people who don't plan on doing any of those things. I think that OrdaNoel is correct in that the problem here might not be with the crafting system, but rather with people exploiting the resource gathering systems. That's just my opinion.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I personally find that 625 salvage beams are more than enough. With that amount it still is quite hard to salvage everything. I do get that there are people who make bigger arrays though.

 

[OdraNoel]

I personally find that 625 salvage beams are more than enough. With that amount it still is quite hard to salvage everything. I do get that there are people who make bigger arrays though.

see there in lies the heart of the issue, you shouldn't need a 625 unit array to just "get by". and getting that 625 unit array should be ridiculously expensive to acquire.

edit: fixed double post, ops

 

[Byamarro]

I liked previous crafting recipes (with few exceptions). These were hard but required a little effort to make everything automatic.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I liked previous crafting recipes (with few exceptions). These were hard but required a little effort to make everything automatic.

I partially agree.
My opinions of the crafting systems:

Things I liked about the old system:

• You were encouraged to make factories.
• You could easily edit some things yourself to make the whole crafting system better for you.

Things I didn't like about the old system:

• Sometimes the recipes were so long that you would just decide that the whole crafting system was stupid.
• Things were too expensive.

And now vs the new system: Things I like:

• The new factories tiers are incredible.
• All the recipes are a lot clearer.
• They finally got the recipes right for the basic blocks.
• Hull now has logical recipes.

Things I don't like:

• The recipes are too small, you no longer are encouraged to build factories. Only hull has long recipes, and that just makes the whole system feel one-sided, and that one side of course being the hulls.
• The recipes are now even more expensive for the common advanced blocks, even to the point where it is practically impossible to make them in large quantities.
• You no longer can easily change the whole crafting system. You will have to go through a couple of hundred blocks and change their recipes, as there no longer are intermediate items that you can just change to influence the entire crafting system.

The crafting system shouldn't even need editing in the first place, it should all be right to begin with.

This would be (IMO) the best crafting system:

• There would be 3 factory tiers: basic, standard and advanced (so like it is now)
• The recipe length scales with the factory tiers. Items/blocks made in basic only have 1 step, standard has two steps, and advanced has 3 steps.
• Each additional step will require 1 block/item from the previous factory tier and 1 block/item: a raw resource, capsules from the the refinery, blocks from the micro assembler or the factory. When that second item/block comes from a factory, the items needed to craft that block/item will have only been capsules. This basically means that the second block/item will only have to be processed twice (maximum): not, once in the refinery, or twice when it comes from refinery -> micro assembler or refinery -> factory.
• You will be encouraged to create factories.
• Recipes would be easy to understand.
• The lowest tier of recipes, the ones from the basic factory, should be easy to remember.
• The recipes won't require a lot of resources. They shouldn't use more than 100 ore for the rare blocks, and 20-40 raw ore for other items, depending on how often it gets used and how advanced it is.
• There should be a balance between needing asteroids and needing planets.
• There would be a lot of resource specific recipes in the standard factory and the advanced factory. In the standard factory some blocks wouldn't require specific resources, but in the advanced factory almost all of the blocks would need specific resources.

Edit: @OdraNoel , I just watched your video, and you've convinced me now that we need your quarry suggestion implemented in the game.
I also think that the crafting system should indeed be balanced around a resource amount. That resource amount should also indeed be the amount you'd get from a medium sized asteroid.

 

[OdraNoel]

ok guys, a new dev build was just uploaded and this time its looking to be a real winner! they have addressed several issues including some we have over looked. i told you guys, trust in schine team. they know what they are doing and they listen to us. :D

and i am sorry schine team if anything in this thread has sounded mean or hostile. that was never my intention. and re-reading some of my posts i realize some of them may have come off as d*ckish. you guys are best dev team iv ever seen working on the best game iv ever played. if we hold you to a high standard its only because you guys have proven again and again to be absolute masters of game design. much love and respect. you guys more than deserve it! <3 :D

Edit to add: i suggest everyone go to the news page and read the latest post, lots of good info there on recent changes. my favorite being that they have come up with a solution to abandoned stations also being vast reservoirs of recourses. since iv been avoiding them completely due to my "hardcore survival" gamers spirit i had forgotten about them entirely. but we should be able to now harvest them freely without getting instantly rich in hulls! expect a flurry of observational posts to come! :D

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Wait... @OdraNoel are the recipes now longer?
I looooooove all the changes btw

Edit: Building stations has never been so cheap

 

[OdraNoel]

ok first observation of newst devbuild ( dev .173) abandoned stations now ONLY yield scrap metal and composite crystals. regardless of what block was mined.(hull, glass, lights, power blocks) this is awesome as you no longer can abuse stations for insta resources! this is one of the best features yet!

 

[OdraNoel]

ok guys, after a few hours of playing with the new version, i think i can say our previous grievances have been pretty much solved. at least in terms of resource amount. some things still could be changed like power blocks needing something else then raw metal.

but in terms of 1,000 crystals circuits being so hard to aquire, thats all been solved. now you get TEN! meshes or circuits from the capsule refinery when processing raw materials and 5 capsules of said resource. this makes the capsules them selves more valuable and makes acquireing meshes and the like much less of a pain. things are definitely starting to feel a bit more balanced now.

 

[Ithirahad]

I feel like if you guys really want to make things this hard to craft, then ores need to become a lot more common. Or, ores could stay the same but prices could go down. Or, hell, ores could become RARER but produce a lot more from being refined. That said, this system does really appear to be an improvement...