Dev Blog : February 17th 2016

    Bench

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    Greetings once again Citizens! Here's an update for you that will hopefully answer some questions.

    We have worked hard the past two weeks to bring fleets into StarMade. Unfortunately, all the fleet work we have started to implement is not ready for release yet. The backend is fully implemented, and it’s already usable, but we would feel uncomfortable releasing it in this state, especially since the testing team didn’t have much time to try it out.

    You can expect a release soon…. Instead, we will talk a little bit about how fleets work, how they integrate, and what they will mean for gameplay.

    Fleets

    Basically, in its rawest form, fleets are a collection of ships. For StarMade, they are going to be much more than that. Fleets will become a whole new gameplay chapter which will make the universe come alive a lot more.

    As said, a fleet in the game is a collection of ships. However, a fleet also has an owner and a flagship.
    Only the owner has full control over the ships, but there will be different flags that you can set, so that other faction members can make use of a fleet if so desired.

    We haven’t decided yet if fleet creation should be allowed anywhere, or whether it will be restricted in some way.

    When you create a fleet, you can add ships in range to it. In order for a ship to be able to be added to a fleet you must have access to it and they it may not be in another fleet already.

    When ships are added to a fleet they go into a list of ships in that fleet.The first ship in your list will always be designated the flagship. You can change the fleet order at any time, as that also influences other features we will talk about later on. All the backend systems are implemented and will be using SQL databases for fast lookup and updating in real time.

    Now, one nice thing about fleets is that their ships don’t need to be loaded at all, or can only be partially loaded. Any entity that isn’t loaded will still be represented by a virtual object with the bare basics. This avoids a scalability problem since loading each sector that has a ship of a fleet in all the time would basically cripple performance.

    This system opens up the door to a whole new gameplay element though. Fleets, although they are not even close to any player, or even when no player is on a server, are able to execute their mission.

    Fleet Missions

    Fleets can be used to perform a lot of active and inactive tasks: keep different Formations, different forms of attack, defend, come back, salvage, dock, trade, cargo, patrol, jump, and many more.

    Some of these tasks can be executed in an unloaded state. That means you can send a fleet to attack someone, that someone could also send their fleet to defend a sector. While both fleets aren’t loaded, the fight would then be simulated according to (more balanced) ship scores.

    You can also send fleets to bring cargo from point A to point B. These cargo lines can be raided in real time, since if you have your raiding fleet on the path of the cargo ships, they will load in and you can battle and defeat them, provided they didn’t send enough fighters to protect their cargo. This is just a basic form of conflict that will be integrated into our objectives/missions system later on.

    These cargo lines as well as other fleets on the move will probably be made visible in the map with an updated scanning system.

    Carriers

    After basic fleet missions are implemented, there is also a fully functional and convenient carrier system planned, a carrier simply being a ship you use to deploy ships or fleets from. The main problem of carriers is getting ships out of and into the carrier. Plotting a path in space taking into account moving obstructions, custom sizes and shapes through block placements etc, is immensely complex. Add moving and possibly rotating carriers to that equation, and the problem becomes nearly impossible to solve.

    However there is a solution we came up with that is a lot more simple and streamlined: Let the player plot the path into their ship themselves. We even have the tool for that already: Rails. There will be a zero mass zero structure hit point invisible railblock that players can use to guide their ships in and out of their carriers. They will be restricted specifically for that use in some way so people won’t replace all their rails with these new blocks. At the end of those rails will be a “pick-up area” where ships coming back have to fly into to connect to the invisible rail that will guide them into the ship, where ‘real’ rails can do the rest. You can even use your carrier to pick up ships without any AI if you fly your pickup zone onto another ship that you have access to.

    Gameplay

    We hope that this will make the game a lot more exciting as we will be using the same system for AI from this point out. Not only will different NPC factions try to grow their empire. They will use their fleets to protect and attack, or maybe even offer them to do the dirty work for you. Scalability wise it is possible to have as many and as big NPC factions as we want, because they are going to be procedurally generated, that means, their bases and ships don’t exist in the database until the time someone loads them in by visiting them. Through NPC factions we will try to build a more survival style mode without relying on a lot of time-tedious gameplay elements like having to manage food etc (that doesn’t mean food won’t also come to the game. But we will make sure that it’s not tedious). NPC factions will grow around you, and interact with you, so you will have to grow your own empire, or be crushed. You will need allies for yourself to combat your enemies, or you will have to flee to a less rich but safe part of the galaxy or universe, because some factions will prefer the rich spots and some will even try to eliminate you if you’re in the way.

    While this is just one of the elements of what we have in store for objectives/missions/quests etc, we hope you like those changes as it will be another major pillar of gameplay.

    - The Schine Team
     

    Ithirahad

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    Is all of this Fleet Mission stuff (Formations, Salvaging, auto docking, cargo stuff...) coming out in this next update, or even some of it, beyond the basic "Follow this ship, attack that ship"? Because something tells me it's not...


    In any case, though, this dev blog details a lot of things players have been wanting for years, and OH MY GOD THE HYPE. It's great to see this stuff finally getting dealt with, and a lot of the work put into previous updates (AI framework, rails, cargo system, etc.) adding up into these advanced features. I suppose nobody will be able to say that "you guys just add random stuff, and should be focusing on <creative features, survival features, economy, universe, blah blah>" any more.
     
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    Pickup zones sound amazing, I hope they will send a logic signal so you can open hanger doors as soon as a ship hits one.
     

    Lecic

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    Two dev blogs in one week? You've gone mad, Bench!

    Now, to read this...

    EDIT-

    Some of these tasks can be executed in an unloaded state. That means you can send a fleet to attack someone, that someone could also send their fleet to defend a sector. While both fleets aren’t loaded, the fight would then be simulated according to (more balanced) ship scores.
    This is the only issue I have with fleets, currently. There is almost certainly NO WAY that unloaded fleets are going to account for things like docked reactors and turret turn speed.
     
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    nightrune

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    Any thoughts on how you are going balance turrets in all of this? Or thoughts on the balance in sims? I'm assuming they'll get min/maxed to hell.
     

    Winterhome

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    NO WAY that unloaded fleets are going to account for things like docked reactors
    Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. I could see it being rather interesting for only actively loaded ships to be able to function with them, if a little bit wonky.
     
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    There is almost certainly NO WAY that unloaded fleets are going to account for things like docked reactors and turret turn speed.
    that is also in my opinion one of the biggest issues. If the end result is, that 1 type of ship is strongly favored in unloaded combat, while the other is stronly favored in loaded combat, ships of the latter type will always have pilots or some other sector-loading mechanism, to keep them safe.
     
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    Two dev blogs in one week? You've gone mad, Bench!

    Now, to read this...

    EDIT-



    This is the only issue I have with fleets, currently. There is almost certainly NO WAY that unloaded fleets are going to account for things like docked reactors and turret turn speed.
    It's pretty unavoidable unfortunately, unless you make it so a player has to be present for combat, which prevents things like NPC factions expanding etc. I doubt there'll ever be a system of how good the ship is on paper translating into how good it is in practise.

    Pretty much everything else sounds great though. Nice to see formations etc included from the start.
     
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    I'm very skeptical about how well these invisible rails will function for AI docking. Though, I'm really excited to see if you guys can pull it off. I think I might need to start work on some kind of carrier and a bunch of fighters now.
     
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    Dear lord... This will do to Starmade what survival mode is doing to minecraft and space engineers. This is awsome!
    Now, besides comments:
    [1.]We haven’t decided yet if fleet creation should be allowed anywhere, or whether it will be restricted in some way.


    [2.]Fleets can be used to perform a lot of active and inactive tasks: keep different Formations, different forms of attack, defend, come back, salvage, dock, trade, cargo, patrol, jump, and many more.

    [3.] simulated according to (more balanced) ship scores.

    [4.]You can also send fleets to bring cargo from point A to point B. These cargo lines can be raided in real time, since if you have your raiding fleet on the path of the cargo ships, they will load in and you can battle and defeat them, provided they didn’t send enough fighters to protect their cargo. This is just a basic form of conflict that will be integrated into our objectives/missions system later on.

    These cargo lines as well as other fleets on the move will probably be made visible in the map with an updated scanning system.


    [5.]There will be a zero mass zero structure hit point invisible railblock that players can use to guide their ships in and out of their carriers.

    [6.]They will be restricted specifically for that use in some way so people won’t replace all their rails with these new blocks.

    [7.] At the end of those rails will be a “pick-up area” where ships coming back have to fly into to connect to the invisible rail that will guide them into the ship, where ‘real’ rails can do the rest.


    - The Schine Team
    1.Maybe only allowing fleet creation in owned sectors, leader changes in allied sectors, and ship addition in unowned/neutral sectors. I'm curious if there will be limits for the fleet based on the leader. Will the whole fleet only be a max of 20x the leaders block count? Nonleaders have to be a max of 2x leader's block count? Or will there be some system block setup that limits/expands a fleet's abilities?

    2.I assume these activities, when unloaded, will be done with a variety of variables using values from the fleet, simple enough once you get the numbers right*. What I am worried about is some of the more unique activities when loaded. Mainly salvaging, how will the AI be updated to aim at certain blocks instead of the core/Center of Mass. What will trading be like? Will it be trading reasources? Or credits? Or even ships? I assume that will be a later added feature, when the update comes out I assume it will be more of a resupply for shops or giving ore to refineries.

    3. *I recomend you test the numbers by releasing it to the community, and having 2 day hotfixes to balance things out. A lot quicker than 5-7 testers working day and night.

    4. How will you detect fleets? Will they be like stations with a different icon(the factions?)? Or will you need to scan to find them? If so, once you find them, will you be able to track them or will you only get their location at one point? Will you be able to see stats about the fleet from the galaxy map(ie: Leader ship size, total mass/block count, #of ships?)? Will you need a better scanner or be closer to see these stats? From a raid/counterraid standpoint, this is very important. For a few weeks, just making them the same as stations but moving would be fine, but in the finished edition a bit more would be nice.

    5. I'm assuming this would be exactly like a cargo block that functioned like a rail basic, giving them a stronger magnetic docking would help to draw ships in.

    6. Probably by either weight, construction cost, or power usage.

    7.Making a rail landing pad would be useful, the landing pad is linked with landing modules that would be cargoblock style(invisable) in a 3d cross shape to define the outer edges of the landing pad, landing ships would grab the landing pad closest to their size for their own so no 2 ships will want the same landing pad, and ships will not get stuck on blocks.

    I sorta gutted the dev blog in my quote, hope thats not wrong in any way.
     

    Lecic

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    It's pretty unavoidable unfortunately, unless you make it so a player has to be present for combat, which prevents things like NPC factions expanding etc. I doubt there'll ever be a system of how good the ship is on paper translating into how good it is in practise.
    You could load the sector and just have the AI duke it out.

    Of course, points could be used for certain things. It'd be pretty unnecessary to load the sector in the event of a tiny pirate wandering into your massive border patrol fleet. But for actual combat between two large, PLAYERMADE forces? That shouldn't be sim combat.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    Dear lord... This will do to Starmade what survival mode is doing to minecraft and space engineers. This is awsome!
    Now, besides comments:
    1.Maybe only allowing fleet creation in owned sectors, leader changes in allied sectors, and ship addition in unowned/neutral sectors. I'm curious if there will be limits for the fleet based on the leader. Will the whole fleet only be a max of 20x the leaders block count? Nonleaders have to be a max of 2x leader's block count? Or will there be some system block setup that limits/expands a fleet's abilities?

    2.I assume these activities, when unloaded, will be done with a variety of variables using values from the fleet, simple enough once you get the numbers right*. What I am worried about is some of the more unique activities when loaded. Mainly salvaging, how will the AI be updated to aim at certain blocks instead of the core/Center of Mass. What will trading be like? Will it be trading reasources? Or credits? Or even ships? I assume that will be a later added feature, when the update comes out I assume it will be more of a resupply for shops or giving ore to refineries.

    3. *I recomend you test the numbers by releasing it to the community, and having 2 day hotfixes to balance things out. A lot quicker than 5-7 testers working day and night.

    4. How will you detect fleets? Will they be like stations with a different icon(the factions?)? Or will you need to scan to find them? If so, once you find them, will you be able to track them or will you only get their location at one point? Will you be able to see stats about the fleet from the galaxy map(ie: Leader ship size, total mass/block count, #of ships?)? Will you need a better scanner or be closer to see these stats? From a raid/counterraid standpoint, this is very important. For a few weeks, just making them the same as stations but moving would be fine, but in the finished edition a bit more would be nice.

    5. I'm assuming this would be exactly like a cargo block that functioned like a rail basic, giving them a stronger magnetic docking would help to draw ships in.

    6. Probably by either weight, construction cost, or power usage.

    7.Making a rail landing pad would be useful, the landing pad is linked with landing modules that would be cargoblock style(invisable) in a 3d cross shape to define the outer edges of the landing pad, landing ships would grab the landing pad closest to their size for their own so no 2 ships will want the same landing pad, and ships will not get stuck on blocks.

    I sorta gutted the dev blog in my quote, hope thats not wrong in any way.
    Why the did you spoiler that?; it's not THAT BAD as walls of text go...
     
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    Why the did you spoiler that?; it's not THAT BAD as walls of text go...
    Hey, it looked bad on a sideways Ipad, so go figure. I started that post only just after jstenholt's first post, it took me way to long.
     
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    HyPe!

    Sooo giant fleet v fleet fights will be awesome. The black + two infinities vs the black and two infinities, anyone?
     
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