Damage Pulse, the forgotten weapon

    sayerulz

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    The whole POINT of cannon/pulse/punch or cannon/pulse/explosive is to have a 3x3 or bigger hole (through arranging outputs) that goes through the entire enemy ship, cutting through power lines, logic blocks, jump drive modules, docking rails, and hopefully even controllers and computers. The whole point of it is to cut across the entire ship even through the thickest armor, to take out critical blocks.
    Except it's all but impossible to actually hit those blocks, and if you don't, and the weapon just makes a little hole through a blob of shields or misses entirely, you're now stuck with a massive reload. And even if it hit's perfectly, most of it's damage is still almost always going to be wasted. If, on the other hand, you use a slightly bigger cannon/beam, you get the same effect at longer range and better fire rate. Or, you could just use cannon/punch or cannon/cannon/punch at a large size and be able to do that to all but the most heavily armored ships at a massively increased fire rate.
     
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    What if pulses were similar to common bullet hell projectiles? They'd float though the air as little orbs, slower than cannon fire, but must be avoided and not shot down (or maybe an EMP blast when shot). Different weapon combos would result in spread fire, splitting mid-way, etc. One of the combos could be the traditional melee pulse, for the niche ships that can use it.
    Laughing.png That actually sounds pretty cool! I'd imagine the bullet size (and thus the hit-box) would have to be larger than most projectiles, since they'd be travelling slower.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Except it's all but impossible to actually hit those blocks, and if you don't, and the weapon just makes a little hole through a blob of shields or misses entirely, you're now stuck with a massive reload. And even if it hit's perfectly, most of it's damage is still almost always going to be wasted. If, on the other hand, you use a slightly bigger cannon/beam, you get the same effect at longer range and better fire rate. Or, you could just use cannon/punch or cannon/cannon/punch at a large size and be able to do that to all but the most heavily armored ships at a massively increased fire rate.
    Don't be so quick to dismiss that kind of setup. For range purposes, I tend to do cannon/beam/explosive and the effect can be quite nasty. Pulse just adds more damage per block at the expense of range, projectile speed and firing rate.

    If you "Waffle" your emitters, and use forward-facing AGL (Ai Guided Logic-fire) turrets you can use a cannon/pulse/explosive rig to either cut all the way through a target or blast a wide hole in it; especially at close range.

    Example, this Lancer makes a mean little escort that can pierce every ship I've ever built from front to back.
    Lancer 4.jpg
    Sustained fire from something like this can destroy computers, reset jump drives and cause aux units to explode.
     

    Lecic

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    Pulse just adds more damage per block at the expense of range, projectile speed and firing rate.
    The only reason Cannon/Beam and Beam/Beam are useful is because they have the range (and projectile speed for cannon) advantage over their rapid counterparts while still having a somewhat useable Rate of Fire. Cannon/Pulse is completely useless because any role it would be good at is better filled by Beam/Beam, seeing as how they have basically identical reload times but with Beam/Beam having the hitscan and range advantage. Beam/Pulse is only useful for ion alpha on fast ships.

    Cannon/Pulse and Beam/Pulse are outclassed by every other (non-COMPLETLY useless) combo in the game in terms of effective block counts and power cap to damage ratio.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    The only reason Cannon/Beam and Beam/Beam are useful is because they have the range (and projectile speed for cannon) advantage over their rapid counterparts while still having a somewhat useable Rate of Fire. Cannon/Pulse is completely useless because any role it would be good at is better filled by Beam/Beam, seeing as how they have basically identical reload times but with Beam/Beam having the hitscan and range advantage. Beam/Pulse is only useful for ion alpha on fast ships.

    Cannon/Pulse and Beam/Pulse are outclassed by every other (non-COMPLETLY useless) combo in the game in terms of effective block counts and power cap to damage ratio.
    For damage against blocks, I can agree to some of this; hence why I prefer to slave beams to my cannons over pulses (better rate of fire). But for a mid-range anti-shield weapon, the damage can be quite nasty. Personally, I don't think Pulse-slaved weapons will see much use unless Shine increases the radius of explosive effect.
     
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    I use pulse as a secondaries - pulse secondaries can produce high damage outputs for relatively few blocks/space (e.g. at 10-20% secondary) and that is an advantage for some builds. Rate of fire is not scaled with range, so timing can be designed.

    I would like to use pulse as a primary more - but the mechanics for that really need something done to them - it is too awkward at the moment. I think the pulse (lasting several ticks) should move with the ship generating it as it is produced, not hang in space. (I expect that would add somewhat to calculation loads, compared to calculating damage from a single fixed point)
     
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    Lecic

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    For damage against blocks, I can agree to some of this; hence why I prefer to slave beams to my cannons over pulses (better rate of fire). But for a mid-range anti-shield weapon, the damage can be quite nasty. Personally, I don't think Pulse-slaved weapons will see much use unless Shine increases the radius of explosive effect.
    Cannon/pulse is completely worthless, whether for ion or for block damage. Beam/beam is just flat out better.
     
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    Lecic, as Matt already pointed out previously, your contributions do tend towards the negative...
    Also, we know already your opinion on B/B...and maybe there is some balance to consider there - do you have a suggestion ?

    I get the impression that many of your comments are made in reference to power-regen-Maxed-out, super-optimized 'Big' ships, and often in relation to combat against some kind of near identical ship.

    Pulse secondary has its role -a useful role of massively increasing alpha damage for addition of a small number of blocks/space. This is very useful for small and medium builds, e.g. kitting out a wing of mixed weapon/combat-role fighters based on a single hull, or turret sets. For swarms of micro ships also, some C/P might be very viable (B/B needs stronger power generation and space). [of course weapon timing across multiple CPU can be a key design parameter especially as range is not codependent with pulse secondaries, as previously mentioned]

    I find a nice chunk or two of pulse modules very useful in small/medium sized 'multi-function' player ships, with a setup to allow easy reconfiguration of weapon groups.
    Salvage/Pulse is very effective, for a modest number of blocks, allowing the ship to carry various other systems, and maintaining high thrust; for example a relatively modest cannon set can be mounted - this can be connected to parts of the pulse system, for example to create a Planet Cracker gun. Reconfigured as a single Pulse main, or P/P weapon, this pulse weapons provide a powerful way to drop shields on a pirate station (for example), again in addition to maintaining several other weapon and ship systems + high thrust.

    -Finally; internally docked pulse weapons, or linked to area-triggers, provide some interesting possibilities for astronaut traps....
    -And Most Importantly; when linked to colored lights strings of logic fired single pulse blocks make a pretty light show :)
     
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    You forgot one thing pal - pulse secondary makes for an atrocious reload time.
    By the time you get your second shot ready, the enemy is already half-way through your ship with his Cannon^2 or some other actually useful weapon. NO amount of saved blocks justifies the abysmal fire rate.
    Sure, it's an alpha strike weapon alright, because if the enemy survives your first shot, you won't be around to make another one.

    Regarding fighters, you might as well use warheads. In fact, you would actually do some real damage with them.
    Alpha strike fighters is one of the most retarded ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
    Just drop a bunch of warhead-core-docker "mines", it'll work far better than your literal waste of resources.
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    The only reason Cannon/Beam and Beam/Beam are useful is because they have the range (and projectile speed for cannon) advantage over their rapid counterparts while still having a somewhat useable Rate of Fire. Cannon/Pulse is completely useless because any role it would be good at is better filled by Beam/Beam, seeing as how they have basically identical reload times but with Beam/Beam having the hitscan and range advantage. Beam/Pulse is only useful for ion alpha on fast ships.

    Cannon/Pulse and Beam/Pulse are outclassed by every other (non-COMPLETLY useless) combo in the game in terms of effective block counts and power cap to damage ratio.
    Beam/beam WOULD have an advantage if its long range wouldn't be countered by the terrible hit detection on beam weapons against targets out of your sector. Seriously, you REALLY have to have ideal circumstances, ultra low latency and server load, and even the stars and Schema's balls have to align right to actually land a detected hit with a beam against out of sector targets even if the target is just 500 meters away from you on the opposite side of the sector border. It's BAD and needs fixing.
     
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    Cluwne Thanks for the constructive Comment ! (Although with several C/P weapons mounted one can cycle through them...)

    You might be right. I do see quite a few people who like to build fighters and such like, but heh, nvm, more fool them... - but best of luck with your WarHead Fleet, should be spectacular ! :>
     

    Lecic

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    Lecic, as Matt already pointed out previously, your contributions do tend towards the negative...
    Also, we know already your opinion on B/B...and maybe there is some balance to consider there - do you have a suggestion ?
    I could not care less if you people think my comments are "negative." Criticism is generally negative.

    C/P cannot and will not be useful until we have a siege weapon block damage overhaul. We need scaling projectile size and block damage radii for C/P and B/P for them to be useful weapons.

    This is very useful for small and medium builds
    What do you think is "small to medium"? You realize you can squeeze 200k block/400k shield DPS into 3.5k mass ships, right? There is absolutely no reason to ever use alpha block damage in a non-missile weapon. It is incredibly easy to get enough DPS to make alpha block weapons wholly unviable before you even reach 1k mass.

    For swarms of micro ships also, some C/P might be very viable (B/B needs stronger power generation and space).
    You realize that C/P and B/B have nearly identical stats, with everything being identical except for reload time (16s for C/P vs 15s for B/B) and of course range, right? Any ship that can mount C/P should be able to mount B/B to what is essentially the exact same effectiveness.

    (Although with several C/P weapons mounted one can cycle through them...)
    Wow, great idea. So you'd mount, say, 4 C/P weapons so you can cycle through and fire once every 4 seconds instead of every 16 seconds, so that you can.... oh wait, we just made a worse C/B. You could do the exact same damage per shot for the same block count and also have longer range and higher velocity projectiles if you switched your 4 C/P out for 1 C/B.
     
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    I could not care less if you people think my comments are "negative." Criticism is generally negative.

    C/P cannot and will not be useful until we have a siege weapon block damage overhaul. We need scaling projectile size and block damage radii for C/P and B/P for them to be useful weapons.
    I dont usually agree with Lecic, but i do on this. Criticism can go both ways, but the point of it is to point out flaws with a product, and i agree about the scaling projectiles, until a C/P can destroy a ton of blocks on impact instead of just the ones directly infront of it, it wont be as good.
     
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    Dr. Whammy

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    Cannon/pulse is completely worthless, whether for ion or for block damage. Beam/beam is just flat out better.
    Cannon/pulse is a niche weapon. While not the preferred choice, it's far from useless.

    1) It matches the damage output of beam/beam and has naturally superior punch-through at the expense of range and a slightly slower reload. While it fails against distant/maneuverable targets, it gains an advantage against slower/stationary targets with heavy armor. Hence; artillery/siege cannon.

    2) You can combine an explosive effect with the natural punch-through of cannon/pulse and create a weapon that leaves a nasty cavitational effect as it cuts through a ship's hull as the explosive effect activates on multiple blocks, as it passes through. Fix the explosive tertiary effect and people will cry that cannon/pulse is over-powered.


    Lancer vs Pathfinder3.jpg Lancer vs Pathfinder2.jpg
    3) Use the above technique, "Waffle" your emitters and use your secondary fire mode to carve large tunnels through your target like a huge armor piercing shotgun.

    4) In the current (pre-power-overhaul) state of the game, cannon/pulse favors drones, fighters and other small craft due to each ship having a base power capacity of 50,000. When building this small, you only need to focus on power regen to keep the gun firing. Here are some examples of smaller craft and equipment that use cannon/pulse to break through standard armor and in some cases, even advanced armor.

    SF-38 series fighter.png First Fighter.jpg cereberus02.jpg New fighter X2.jpg My new toy2.jpg AC weapons.jpg

    In short; pulse by itself, does need a buff/rework but when used for its intended purposes, it can pack a punch. Besides; as soon as anyone even thinks about buffing it, people will start crying O.P! O.P!!! like they always do.
     
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    Napther

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    ALSO NOTE:

    Beam/Beam ticks 5 times over its burst period. this is significantly better block destruction potential than a Cannon/Pulse.

    Due to the 1s burst time, Beams put a lwoer strain on the power capacity of a ship, as it can regen 1 x [power regen/s] during the course of firing the weapon.
    Among other things.

    The only thing Cannon/Pulse does better is cross-sector "reliable" (Not buggy, as in 0 block damage on beam hit) damage AFAIK

    But otherwise, Lecic is correct on all points. And we desperately need projectile scaling, or something that makes these weapons not do pin-holes in battlecruisers
    because THATS why people spam missiles
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    ALSO NOTE:

    Beam/Beam ticks 5 times over its burst period. this is significantly better block destruction potential than a Cannon/Pulse.
    Better block hit count; yes. Better block damage; not necessarily. Cannon has inherent punch-through, beams do not.

    Due to the 1s burst time, Beams put a lwoer strain on the power capacity of a ship, as it can regen 1 x [power regen/s] during the course of firing the weapon.
    Not quite. All the burst does is spread the power drain out into 5 separate bursts in one second, resulting in 5 quick drains instead of one big one.
    In practice, they have roughly the same effect on capacity, although they do display different visual effects on the energy charge meter.
    In short; you get to choose between a "lump sum" or "payment plan" on your energy bill. Either way, you still have to pay.

    Among other things.

    The only thing Cannon/Pulse does better is cross-sector "reliable" (Not buggy, as in 0 block damage on beam hit) damage AFAIK
    As far as I've tested; cannon/pulse has inherent punch-through, can be combined with other effects and still retain that inherent punch-through and allows smaller craft/turrets to field more powerful ordnance without equipping power capacitors or auxiliaries.

    In single player, I killed one of these You got Nuked.jpg with one of these SF-38 series fighter.png by using speed, maneuverability, patience and a cannon/pulse weapon powerful enough to break through one block of advanced armor in a single shot.

    Anything can have a purpose. It may not suit yours but that doesn't automatically make it "worse" or "useless" overall.
     
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    that doesn't automatically make it "worse"
    hes not saying his tastes make it better or worse, hes saying its objectively worse, which it is.
    [doublepost=1499542989,1499542955][/doublepost]to add, worse doesnt mean useless. you can still kill something with a "worse" gun.
     

    Napther

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    Better block hit count; yes. Better block damage; not necessarily. Cannon has inherent punch-through, beams do not.
    But beams have inherent PIERCE, this effect allows them to pass through multiple blocks anyway. Beam's latent penetration and Cannon latent penetration is roughly similar.

    Not quite. All the burst does is spread the power drain out into 5 separate bursts in one second, resulting in 5 quick drains instead of one big one.
    In practice, they have roughly the same effect on capacity, although they do display different visual effects on the energy charge meter.
    In short; you get to choose between a "lump sum" or "payment plan" on your energy bill. Either way, you still have to pay.
    Not really.
    You can fire a beam when you have less than the capacity required to fire the whole beam burst. Yes, you still need to "pay the power toll" but what I was saying is that the Beam will actively utilise the power recharged during its 1 second burst. Power recharge ticks about 20 times a second. Therefore you can theoretically power an alpha beam off recharge alone (But at that rate you may as well just use the recharge with beam/cannon)

    As far as I've tested; Cannon pulse has inherent punch-through, can be combined with other effects and still retain that inherent punch-through and allows smaller craft/turrets to field more powerful ordnance without equipping power capacitors or auxiliaries.
    And yet beam does the same. It still has penetration effect when you add on 50% ion to it. This point is rather invalid.


    And as above messge. Cannon/pulse isnt useless, its just not as EFFECTIVE as other weapons out there.
    Take that cannon/pulse/punch you used and turn it into cannon/cannon/punch. Using superior speed and agility you should be able to drill out thrust and power as they only have 25HP per block.

    Also I see decoratives on the external of that ship, emaning they have 10-50HP. focusing these spots will net large amounts of damage to a cannon cannon