Damage Pulse, the forgotten weapon

[Gasboy]

So you're just going to make the pulse weapons inferior to dumbfire missile weapons?

The solution to pulse is NOT to make it a clone of an existing weapon. Make it a unique weapon type. This is the same problem I have with the "fix explosive!" requests. If you "fix" explosive you just make missile weapons useless, or you fix and then nerf explosive to the point where it's worthless and nothing has changed. You need to give any new weapon type a different method of causing damage to avoid conflicts.

But it's not a clone. It's a short range, direct fire, area effect weapon. Missiles have a much longer range than the pulse weapons. They have separate purposes.

 

[Lecic]

But it's not a clone. It's a short range, direct fire, area effect weapon.

So Missile/Cannon and Missile?

 

[Gasboy]

So Missile/Cannon and Missile?

Sure thing! :D

As I said, missiles would have a longer range. This would have a short range and move faster. Perhaps a bigger area effect. I don't think it's horrible if there's a little bit of overlap.

 

[Lecic]

As I said, missiles would have a longer range.

You cannot use dumbfire missiles at long range. They are, functionally, short range only. So what's the difference between this and your pulse? Well, the missiles are slower and can be shot down. So they're useless compared to pulse.

 

[Gasboy]

You cannot use dumbfire missiles at long range. They are, functionally, short range only. So what's the difference between this and your pulse? Well, the missiles are slower and can be shot down. So they're useless compared to pulse.

So maybe that can be addressed by updates to dumbfire missiles? You're coming at this like it's going to be put in exactly as suggested, or that the devs can't figure out a way to balance things.

And do you actually use dumbfire missiles as serious weapons? And not as distraction spam for your real missile weapons? Like everyone else does?

If you don't use dumbfire missiles as serious weapons, does that not mean that perhaps they should be reworked to begin with?

 

[Lecic]

So maybe that can be addressed by updates to dumbfire missiles? You're coming at this like it's going to be put in exactly as suggested, or that the devs can't figure out a way to balance things.

What solution do you have for this problem that does not result in dumbfire missile weapons being superior or identical?

And no, I don't really trust the devs to just "figure out a way to balance things." Give me a concrete way to solve this. How do you make a short ranged AoE weapon that doesn't push the same weapon out of usefulness?

And do you actually use dumbfire missiles as serious weapons? And not as distraction spam for your real missile weapons? Like everyone else does?

Yeah, I've used dumbfire missiles (M/C specifically) as actual weapons in the past. I won't pretend they don't have plenty of major flaws (mainly PD weakness, which you can always solve with distractors off to the side), but they can be pretty good weapons for a brawler, and they're fantastic for station bombardment.

 

[Gasboy]

What solution do you have for this problem that does not result in dumbfire missile weapons being superior or identical?

And no, I don't really trust the devs to just "figure out a way to balance things." Give me a concrete way to solve this. How do you make a short ranged AoE weapon that doesn't push the same weapon out of usefulness?



Yeah, I've used dumbfire missiles (M/C specifically) as actual weapons in the past. I won't pretend they don't have plenty of major flaws (mainly PD weakness, which you can always solve with distractors off to the side), but they can be pretty good weapons for a brawler, and they're fantastic for station bombardment.

I don't have a solution at the moment for the issue you outline.

However, since you do admit that they have flaws, it stands to reason that the missiles can be improved in some way that will allow for less overlap with the weapon I suggested. I can sleep on it. :P

 

[Lecic]

I don't have a solution at the moment for the issue you outline.

However, since you do admit that they have flaws, it stands to reason that the missiles can be improved in some way that will allow for less overlap with the weapon I suggested. I can sleep on it. :P

Well, here's the thing. The biggest reason why M/C isn't useful is because of PD.

So your solution to dumbfire missiles being ineffective would be to remove their weakness to PD, essentially making them identical to your proposed pulse weapons?

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Well, here's the thing. The biggest reason why M/C isn't useful is because of PD.

So your solution to dumbfire missiles being ineffective would be to remove their weakness to PD, essentially making them identical to your proposed pulse weapons?

Seriously tho, cut him some freaking slack Lecic, poor Gasboy can't say anything you don't instantly jump at his throat for. Whatever he posts, you claim it won't work, by default. That's what the whole conversation seems like to an outsider like me newly reading it. Maybe actually suggest something yourself, an alternative, what YOU think would work.

 

[Gasboy]

Well, here's the thing. The biggest reason why M/C isn't useful is because of PD.

So your solution to dumbfire missiles being ineffective would be to remove their weakness to PD, essentially making them identical to your proposed pulse weapons?

Heh, so if I offer a solution to that, are you going pull another problem out that's supposedly caused by my solution? I don't feel like doing that dance with you. Obviously you can solve everything yourself, it's astounding Schine hasn't hired you and fired everyone else.

 

[Lecic]

Seriously tho, cut him some freaking slack Lecic, poor Gasboy can't say anything you don't instantly jump at his throat for. Whatever he posts, you claim it won't work, by default. That's what the whole conversation seems like to an outsider like me newly reading it. Maybe actually suggest something yourself, an alternative, what YOU think would work.

Oh no, I'm so sorry. Let me continue to ignore suggestions I think are bad for the game. I thought the point of the suggestion forums was to debate on the merits of suggestions rather than to just blindly throw them out there. Sorry for breaking this unspoken rule, Matt.

If you'd have read the thread, you would have already seen my suggestion for what I think pulse should be. What it actually becomes doesn't really matter, though, as long as it is a UNIQUE weapon that deals damage differently from the others, not a dumbfire missile clone.

Heh, so if I offer a solution to that, are you going pull another problem out that's supposedly caused by my solution? I don't feel like doing that dance with you. Obviously you can solve everything yourself, it's astounding Schine hasn't hired you and fired everyone else.

Oh, I'm sorry you can't find a way to make your suggestion a unique weapon type that doesn't push existing weapons in the same niche out of the game. You don't need to be a smartass about it. You were wrong. I won't pretend I haven't been wrong with some of my own proposals in the past after criticism from others.

 

[kingreol]

the 3 weapons with the 9 combinations cover a LOT of what any theory weapon could do. B/M or even C/M could cover some of these suggestions like a cone weapon, a little reworking is all thats needed to bring those combinations a little love.... and having 9 combinations that are balanced, working and fun would be fine.. if anything a minelayer would be more useful and could cover as a secondary many of the missing weapon types . (FLAk cannons, weird splinter weapons) if 9 is not enough.

pulse can go. and the game would be fine.

 

[Deserea]

If you'd have read the thread, you would have already seen my suggestion for what I think pulse should be. What it actually becomes doesn't really matter, though, as long as it is a UNIQUE weapon that deals damage differently from the others, not a dumbfire missile clone.


.

In response to the Unique factor, what about a plasma cannon type weapon, instead of doing AOE damage instantly, it slowly(time can be changed to balance it out with other weapons) melts the surrounding area to a certain block count, determined by damage done. The main impact splatters and splashes onto surrounding blocks.

It wouldnt be good for instant damage obviously, but for drawn out combat it could pose a threat(keeping in mind the time can be changed to whatever shine seems to think is balanced).

 

[Etc_Guy]

Just to give my two credits on this, pulse is a niche weapon on it's own but becomes a slave to different weapons for bigger ships and turrets. Mainly for fighting other big targets (stations, capital ships), becomes wasteful to use on fighters. It doesn't need much changes to be seen more often but I doubt pulse will ever be used as much a anti-matter cannons, missiles or beams. The option to have support lasers to be slaved to pulse will widen the limited function pulse has had for years.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Even cannon/missile is better, as it can at least do some damage at close range. but cannon/pulse/explosive? Sure, it would be great if explosive actually worked, but it doesn't, and all that combo is going to do is go straight through an enemy ship with like 10% of it's damage spent.

The whole POINT of cannon/pulse/punch or cannon/pulse/explosive is to have a 3x3 or bigger hole (through arranging outputs) that goes through the entire enemy ship, cutting through power lines, logic blocks, jump drive modules, docking rails, and hopefully even controllers and computers. The whole point of it is to cut across the entire ship even through the thickest armor, to take out critical blocks.

 

[MacThule]

Have to say I find the notion of reworking pulse into another projectile weapon painfully uncreative. We have 3 ranged weapons, one melee. We don't actually need more ranged weapons, despite how much we all love the pew pew. It would be better if pulse could be made to work somewhat as intended.

Pulse had some lingering value, but that value was ruined by recent collision management 'upgrade' that literally teleports your ship away sometimes if you try to melee an enemy capital or base.

Particularly in the current meta of docked hull it would be nice if the game still allowed you to close at speed to make passes with laterally-oriented PPE arrays because they project out and can totally bypass docked hull (and ignore advanced armor in general, including Pierce passive) to erase massive balls of systems from a target.

The complete uselessness of pulse in practical play is more about performance than how the weapon itself is implemented. Lag wrecks high speed maneuver. The game often pre-empts anything that looks like it might become a large collision. These two factors make melee impossible.

As a slaved effect, pulse is just fine as is. More varied weapon effects would be cool, but the current effects work.
[doublepost=1499355471,1499354975][/doublepost]If the reality of gameplay under this code is that effective melee will never be viable due to the weight from collisions, etc, then I would prefer to see pulse primary modified just by greatly expanding its radius, appropriately lowering it's direct damage, and enabling it to be used for caster-centered aoe effects (stop, pull, emp, shield supply, shield drain, etc) to allow better, more meaningful support builds oriented around fleet-grade buffs/debuffs, heals and positional effects.

 

[Napther]

Just to give my two credits on this, pulse is a niche weapon on it's own but becomes a slave to different weapons for bigger ships and turrets. Mainly for fighting other big targets (stations, capital ships), becomes wasteful to use on fighters. It doesn't need much changes to be seen more often but I doubt pulse will ever be used as much a anti-matter cannons, missiles or beams. The option to have support lasers to be slaved to pulse will widen the limited function pulse has had for years.

no, Pulse-slaved weapons (Besdies beam-pulse and missile-pulse for Ion alpha and giant nukes) are NOT effective weapons at all for killing blocks on an enemy ship.
The meta as it stands is spam piercing missiles at about 200/200/200 ish (to taste and ship size firing it) and use beam-cannon (punch/OD) and Cannon Cannon punch waffles to kill enemies

Attemtping to use anything else to kill blocks is a complete waste and will get you destroyed in combat if you try to kill a cruiser using just a Cannon-beam-explosive weapon, while its creating huge holes in your ship from pierce missiles, or chewing the front off your ship with punch cannon waffleboard.

As it stands, there is no reason, besides missiles, to use Block-alpha. It just doesnt work.

 

[kulbolen]

The meta as it stands

this one time someone told me the meta and attacked me in his meta ship and i killed him in something different. METAAAAAA

 

[Napther]

this one time someone told me the meta and attacked me in his meta ship and i killed him in something different. METAAAAAA

"Meta" means a standard protocol that is known to work in over 60% of cases, And "should" work in overcoming most opponents based on game mechanics in use.

You are not in that "most" bracket

 

[kulbolen]

"Meta" means a standard protocol that is known to work in over 60% of cases, And "should" work in overcoming most opponents based on game mechanics in use.

You are not in that "most" bracket

thanks for the compliment. i was subtly going for a moral though.. moral of the story is that although theres some methods that are easier to make work than others, at least half of the weapon combos have some effectiveness or purpose in "high tier play" (as laughable as it sounds to type that phrase regarding starmade.)

pulse main, however, is not part of any of those combos. =/