Council Survey Thread: FINAL ROUND

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    Hello,

    I am currently looking for input on what works and what doesn't with weapons in starmade. I've made a survey (which will be the first of many) to gather feedback from the community. The surveys themselves should take only 15 minutes at most to complete each. Each survey will be open for a week at a time before I close them, and open the next one. I will update this thread with results as they come in. Thanks for taking the time to fill them out.



    This is an official council survey, the results of which will be presented to schine. Please take the time to answer thoughtfully and truthfully.
     
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    Keptick

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    Using google docs, that's actually a really really good idea. Props for that! A forum thread survey would get really really messy.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    Oh my god, I love me some pie charts!

    Can you include another link to the results? I don't think the default link updates, and I don't want to enter in multiple surveys.

    EDIT:
    It does, it went up from 10 to 11 responses. Nice!
     
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    If there's a way I can link the results here to update live I'll do so. Right now I'm about to head off so I just put this up for now.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    Nice poll. Out of curiosity, though, where did you get the options for the changes? Were they the most commonly-suggested changes to each system or something?
     

    Keptick

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    I'll just drop this here, it'll be easier to read in an unclumped fashion;
    Depends on the weapon, I won't write the ones that I think are fine;
    Cannon/beam; Much higher projectile speed, optionally higher alpha damage (meaning a higher reload too), and a way to zoom in. As it stands this weapon shines on turrets for anti-shield but is extremely hard to use due to it being a single shot and no zoom (unless you're freaking chuck Norris).

    Cannon/missile and beam/missile; The pattern is a freaking joke, but you knew that already.

    Missile/cannon; the projectile speed makes it very hard to hit with, especially when the two targets are moving. Alternatively, having a seeking ability akin to missile/missile (but only going after the selected target) with a very very very very large turn radius might be interesting.

    The other missile combos: Are definitely the most effective in the current game. However, I think that this is mostly caused by the very derpy AI targeting system not having any target prioritization and splitting (meaning that 20 PD turrets will engage 20 different missiles, not all converge on the same missile). Fixing this should bring back missiles into balance. Comr4de should have guessed who I am by now.

    Damage-pulse/any; lol
     
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    Going to point out I went ahead and answered all damage pulse on the second question because the radio buttons prevented me from answering properly in the way it was asked. I may be missing something but I don't think that would ever lead to proper numbers/representation.
     
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    Going to point out I went ahead and answered all damage pulse on the second question because the radio buttons prevented me from answering properly in the way it was asked. I may be missing something but I don't think that would ever lead to proper numbers/representation.
    Can you expand on this? That section is to illustrate what is the most effective/popular combinations. That's more of an opinion question.

    If you can expand on that second part I'd appreciate it.
     
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    This line is what got me, brain kept saying columns are master. "Columns indicate which slave, rows indicate which master system."
    The radio buttons functioned as intended which means that question was still filled correctly.
    I was at first afraid that it prevented me from putting more than one of a slave as my first choice. (Happy I came and looked twice, well made survey system)

    On my opinion normally I would have put value in missile + beam and cannon + beam, but with being able to hop in and pulse a target only to pop out makes it by far the strongest, but maybe not the direct best. (I never had single issues taking on pirate stations after trying this)
     
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    Alright, thanks. I'm going to update the survey because I forgot a HUGE question that is incredibly important. It's all the way at the top. I've set it so that you can edit your responses, so please go ahead and do that.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Untitled.png

    Everything has a line through the median of shield emitters and the emitter itself to the boundary box.
    Hit Blocks, Emitters,​
    It's easy to calculate.
    It's also easy to calculate hit triangles or squares on a 2D-surface which only has to get calculated after editing the ship manually (perhaps with rails somewhat different, but take it easy at first).
     
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    Damage pulse combo shouldn't be a required option to fill in :p
    Mb and Mm are kinda a toss-up on which is more powerful, situational I guess.

    One thing that has been nagging at me a while, but the survey puts in perspective.
    Weapon and shields seem balanced enough against each other (except that pulse is useless). The issue is they are both far too powerful for armor/blocks currently. If they were both cut by a factor of 10 (probably more even) that would be a stopgap until the HP system is in.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    I advertised it on our TS, how many people do you want to respond to it before sending it in? 100? 200? 1000?
     

    Keptick

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    Alright, thanks. I'm going to update the survey because I forgot a HUGE question that is incredibly important. It's all the way at the top. I've set it so that you can edit your responses, so please go ahead and do that.
    What if it's PvE because it's impossible to get players to undock and PvP? Pretty much why I stopped even TRYING to do PvP. The hours of boring flying only to find and kill a single person weren't worth it.

    I used to massively enjoy PvP. However, it pretty much died out with the buy with blocks update, mostly due to a lack of targets. Obtaining the resources for ships is just too tedious, people would rather (me included) do other, more productive and fun stuff instead of loosing a ship and having to re-acquire all the resources manually, only to die again with it later on. It also made me feel kinda bad to kill people, knowing that they just lost a couple of hours of tedious work, moreso because I didn't really have a valid reason to kill them in the first place apart from "why not?" (which is hardly a valid reason). This is very VERY bad, you don't want to make players feel bad for playing a certain aspect of the game.

    The last PvP I did was when a certain faction decided to randomly attack me, using an exploit to pinpoint my exact location (they clubbed pretty much the entire server with that bug). I got killed while building a system-less shell. The guy decided to come back to have second servings, he took a certain ship to the face (which was spawned at the time on EE, before the reset). I haven't seen that faction on the server since then.
     
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    Well Ive taken it. I did not know you could do that with google docs. Thats very cool. Nice Survey btw.
     

    Asvarduil

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    Submitted.

    While I did a good job of talking about my choices (except for the ones that are self explanatory), I had some thoughts you may want to share with Schine that it seems like other people have already said. Since this is going to Schine, I think I should say them anyways.

    First: All the ridiculing of Damage Pulse? Warranted. If Damage Beam is a "Ship Melee" range weapon, Damage Pulse is "Ships punching each other in the face." While I haven't seen the most StarMade combat of any player, I have seen enough to see that ships just about never get that close to each other. Damage Pulse is also not good as a secondary system, either. To me, the Damage Pulse weapon is a solution searching for a problem.

    I think the same general complaint applies to Damage Beam, except I have heard tell of specialized 1v1 fighters that use Damage Beam to eat shields. It seems like the primary use of Damage Beam is on the Missile + Damage Beam combo for homing missiles (I'm using this on my current medium fighter design.) As it is, Damage Beam is situational, and this could be OK.

    In my opinion, normal cannons/autocannons are almost useless. They deal scratch damage to shields, it takes horribly huge groupings to get half-decent damage out of them (on my medium fighter, I have two banks of 30 Damage Beam modules, and a single damage beam module as the output for the system. In testing on asteroids last night, the result was 75 damage when focused on one point, or roughly 2.419 damage per block, which is useless.) I read somewhere that cannons were nerfed due to being more OP than missiles currently are; I think Schine may have overreacted a bit. They need a slight buff to be competitive with missiles - I'd say +10% per block. I do think that keeping them situational is a good choice though, similar to the Damage Beam.

    The real problem that missiles have in the greater scheme of the game, is that they are too multipurpose at present, but I think it's really due to other weapons not being useful enough. Missiles are the kings of Starmade combat. They scale excellently according to group block count, they use a respectable amount of power, but nothing you can't overcome with a decent reactor design, they deal awesome damage, and they splash. Other weapons generally act as useful modifiers to their capabilities. I think if other weapons get "buffed"/made more useful, missiles will be forced back into their niche - high damage at the expense of speed, and the ability to be destroyed by other weapons in transit. I'd suggest nerfing the scaling of missile groups, slightly (about 5% should do.)

    Edit: Weapons in context
    Something your survey doesn't do - probably due to the weapon-specific focus - is examine the weapon meta in context with other game systems. Right now, armor blocks provide something like 400 effective HP of mitigation; as a result, to damage an unshielded vessel, you need to build a system that deals at least 400 damage per shot. A small missile battery easily crosses this limit.

    A good question to ask Schine, to get him to think about the relative buffs or nerfs that a weapon needs to have, is: "How many blocks of a given weapon system should it take to cause 400 HP of damage?"

    Right now, with cannons, that number is huge, and there's some evidence of diminishing returns on each block you add, which theoretically makes a "Waffle Blaster" a good idea (note to self - figure out how to get this on the Defiance...) Damage Beams do the damage, but the range is so short that it's nearly pointless (and, AIs can't use Damage Beam, which makes them pointless for point defense.)

    I hope this Great Wall o' Text helps the Council's conversation with Schine.
     
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    Asvarduil

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    I added some additional thoughts that occurred to me over lunch to my post. I hope they help.
     
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    Ok, so I keep seeing people saying 400 effective HP in various posts...std armor has 100hp and 60% reduction, which should be 250EHP. Advanced armor has 250HP and 75% reduction, which should be 1000EHP or am I doing something wrong?
     

    CyberTao

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    Ok, so I keep seeing people saying 400 effective HP in various posts...std armor has 100hp and 60% reduction, which should be 250EHP. Advanced armor has 250HP and 75% reduction, which should be 1000EHP or am I doing something wrong?
    400 EHP is from the old block, back when we just had Normal and Hardened (We have 3 now, and the armour/HP was rebalanced).

    Make sure to check the date on the posts, it could be an old thread, and the things that were said may no longer be true. Alpha is Alpha, and constantly changing.