Concerning the HP system mentioned briefly months ago

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    They could make it so HP needs to be down before blocks can be destroyed..

    So Shield first, then hull amount, then block destruction. This would make hull a bit more important. (So Shielding + Structural integrity = Overall resilience?)
    This would be great. But there have to be a downside of armor to shielding because armor is much cheaper. The best solution would be to let the armor not regenerate itself. You need a external repairbeam (repair ship, repair drones, repair station) or a shipyard to repair armor damage. Maybe an internal repairbeam would also work but with an high loss of efficiency.
     

    Lecic

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    Here's how I think the HP system should work. It's similar to Mortiferum's, actually. I wrote up a big thing in the suggestions forum on the very same concept a while back.

    But, I've changed how I think it should work over time.

    Here's how I think it should work. All physically connected blocks of a "system" have a combined HP and an average armor. This includes hull. Once the combined HP reaches 0, blocks within the system can be destroyed.
     

    Criss

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    You guys don't even need a HP system if you actually balanced your ships with each other. Skip to 8 minutes

     

    Keptick

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    t would be nice to have system HP AND armor hp as two seperate things. What I mean by that is that armor contributes to a different pool of HP. Until that HP pool is depleted then armor can not be destroyed. However, the armor HP pool only contributes towards armor, meaning that system blocks can be destroyed, no matter what the armor HP value is. Armor or hull blocks should also not contribute any HP to the global ship HP (aka: structural integrity) proposed by Calbiri. You want to destroy systems here, destroying armor/hull wouldn't and shouldn't disable a ship ;). In my opinion, hull repair systems should be a lot less powerful than shield regen but should not be affected by a "combat regen" effect. So slow regen but always the same.

    Imaginary scenario with the above system implemented ingame:
    So, say you manage to deplete the hull hp of an enemy and make a nice hole in the hull, however, the enemy manages to retreat and regenerate some hull HP. You catch up to that enemy, two things could happen: You try to deplete the hull HP of the enemy again. OR, you fire at the hole created earlier, effectively bypassing the enemie's armor and dealing damage to systems directly.

    That would also encourage intelligent ship design with layered armor inside systems and such. It would also make armor/hull that much more intuitive and useful. Also adds diversity to the game. You could see shield oriented ships that have no armor regen, instead relying on external repair ships to heal their hull HP. And then there would be armor tanked ships, heavier and no shields, instead favoring heavy armor and armor regen for defense (if this ever gets implemented standard and advanced armor should have higher mass than basic hull imho, armor ships need a disadvantage :p). Then there would be every hybrid in between.

    This would do two things:
    1) Armor as a whole would make much more sense, covering up systems with hull would be like a protective cocoon that needs to be breached. Armor tanking would also become viable as an additional form of defense and could even be used as standalone, something that could not be done with the proposed HP system (assuming that a way to replenish armor HP is implemented at the same time). It

    2) It encourages people to actually cover up their systems.

    Tbh, the more I think about it the more it makes sense. Just having the ship rebuild itself with blocks carried in inventory (the current proposed system) isn't armor tanking, it's f*cking active ship regeneration.
     
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    Criss

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    What I mean by that is that armor contributes to a different pool of HP. Until that HP pool is depleted then armor can not be destroyed.
    I can tell you right now calbiri is against this idea. He wants to be able to just shoot through a ship, regardless of health systems.

    My personal approach is similar. Armor on a ship contributes to a HP pool. All blocks can still be damaged. As armor on the ship is destroyed, system blocks will take more damage if they are hit. Basically the armor mitigates damage from systems on the ship via the HP pool. After a certain amount of hull was destroyed, and therefore a certain amount of that HP pool, the ship systems would take full damage from weapons. The full HP pool is calculated when the ship is built and is taken from the value of the original blueprint. Modifying the ship during combat and away from a shipyard is ineffective.
     

    Keptick

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    I can tell you right now calbiri is against this idea. He wants to be able to just shoot through a ship, regardless of health systems.

    My personal approach is similar. Armor on a ship contributes to a HP pool. All blocks can still be damaged. As armor on the ship is destroyed, system blocks will take more damage if they are hit. Basically the armor mitigates damage from systems on the ship via the HP pool. After a certain amount of hull was destroyed, and therefore a certain amount of that HP pool, the ship systems would take full damage from weapons. The full HP pool is calculated when the ship is built and is taken from the value of the original blueprint. Modifying the ship during combat and away from a shipyard is ineffective.
    aaah, what I was thinking was slightly different. Armor Hp offers 100% protection until it's depleted, at which point armor blocks can be destroyed. System hp doesn't share the same hp pool and is completely independent of armor. the only thing the system HP would do is decide when the ship overheats (dies). System blocks could also be destroyed no matter system HP or armor HP (only way to protect those is shields or a protective armor layer covering them).

    I'm proposing true armor tanking, ALL damage being stopped by armor. Not just a percentage being blocked with the hull getting wrecked anyways. Shields can stop shots, why can't armor do the same? If you want to make a hole in the enemy ship get a big gun, simple.

    From what I understood the planned hp system won't change the usefulness of hull at all. Not using hull at all or just single layer (with the rest being shields) will still be infinitely better, considering that shots will still rip through everything. 1 shield block will ALWAYS be better than 1 armor block. Besides, having the hull/armor contributing to the structural integrity pool makes no sense... Why the f*ck would a ship be disabled for having its armor plating destroyed? It would only fly faster and better, lol.

    Assuming that I understood correctly, the planned HP system won't add any depth to the game, it will just make combats last longer... Don't get me wrong, this is a good thing. But while you're at it would might as well make it EVEN BETTER! Calbiri I really hope that you'll consider the option.
     
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    Snk

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    You guys don't even need a HP system if you actually balanced your ships with each other. Skip to 8 minutes

    Does piercing effect debuff shields? Why would I want to use armor instead of shields when armor is extremely difficult to repair?
     

    Ithirahad

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    Either way, ships shouldn't need to be 'balanced with each other' artificially - that's a metagame, not Starmade. Everything should ideally just flow organically and logically no matter what you do.
     

    Criss

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    Does piercing effect debuff shields? Why would I want to use armor instead of shields when armor is extremely difficult to repair?
    You are thinking short term. We already have confirmed that a form of armor repair will be a feature in the future. You're just looking for an easy way out and we don't know how the game could change in the future. That's now how we should be looking at it. I have no idea if piercing debuff shields. I don't think it should if it does.

    It almost seems like you didn't watch that video. I specifically stated that it was even harder to kill this ship than one that focused on shielding. Armor has value if you use it correctly.[DOUBLEPOST=1417487853,1417487703][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Either way, ships shouldn't need to be 'balanced with each other' artificially - that's a metagame, not Starmade. Everything should ideally just flow organically and logically no matter what you do.
    Except this is a sandbox where there are no limits aside from computer capabilities. Without rules, there will be no organic flowing mechanics that blend together to create a good system where everything is fine and dandy. The entirety of the game right now consists of building ships and blowing each other up. It is not the games fault if you cannot balance ships with each other on a level that presents enjoyable gameplay. If features were in place like the HP system, and balancing ships were still necessary then at that point you could tell me that the game is broken.

    To prove that point. I could make a 300~ meter ship that is entirely dedicated to powering one weapon system and using it to obliterate enemies. At the same time I could build the same sized ship and use it entirely for shielding and not place a single offensive block. That's just a possibility with how the game works. But it's not the games fault for creating what are ridiculous ships.
     
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    Keptick

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    You are thinking short term. We already have confirmed that a form of armor repair will be a feature in the future. You're just looking for an easy way out and we don't know how the game could change in the future. That's now how we should be looking at it. I have no idea if piercing debuff shields. I don't think it should if it does.

    It almost seems like you didn't watch that video. I specifically stated that it was even harder to kill this ship than one that focused on shielding. Armor has value if you use it correctly.[DOUBLEPOST=1417487853,1417487703][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Except this is a sandbox where there are no limits aside from computer capabilities. Without rules, there will be no organic flowing mechanics that blend together to create a good system where everything is fine and dandy. The entirety of the game right now consists of building ships and blowing each other up. It is not the games fault if you cannot balance ships with each other on a level that presents enjoyable gameplay. If features were in place like the HP system, and balancing ships were still necessary then at that point you could tell me that the game is broken.

    To prove that point. I could make a 300~ meter ship that is entirely dedicated to powering one weapon system and using it to obliterate enemies. At the same time I could build the same sized ship and use it entirely for shielding and not place a single offensive block. That's just a possibility with how the game works. But it's not the games fault for creating what are ridiculous ships.
    Indeed, balancing is very important. I made a ship that has almost pretty perfect balancing using a super secret technique™ (no, it's not a brick, this works with any shape possible). Let's just say that I obliterated a fleet that had a combined mass of 3 or 4 times my own mass by using that ship ^_^

    HOWEVER, I still feel that a better armor and HP system would add to game-play. Armor tanking like you demonstrated in the video really doesn't work efficiently for anything bigger than a corvette.
     

    Criss

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    Indeed, balancing is very important. I made a ship that has almost pretty perfect balancing using a super secret technique™ (no, it's not a brick, this works with any shape possible). Let's just say that I obliterated a fleet that had a combined mass of 3 or 4 times my own mass by using that ship ^_^

    HOWEVER, I still feel that a better armor and HP system would add to game-play. Armor tanking like you demonstrated in the video really doesn't work efficiently for anything bigger than a corvette.
    We will see once I get to larger ship sizes. Keep in mind that with larger ships, players also build larger guns. The weapons I use will be significantly smaller than the ones most players use and it should lead to a similar balance with larger ships.
     

    Snk

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    You are thinking short term. We already have confirmed that a form of armor repair will be a feature in the future. You're just looking for an easy way out and we don't know how the game could change in the future. That's now how we should be looking at it. I have no idea if piercing debuff shields. I don't think it should if it does.

    It almost seems like you didn't watch that video. I specifically stated that it was even harder to kill this ship than one that focused on shielding. Armor has value if you use it correctly.[DOUBLEPOST=1417487853,1417487703][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Except this is a sandbox where there are no limits aside from computer capabilities. Without rules, there will be no organic flowing mechanics that blend together to create a good system where everything is fine and dandy. The entirety of the game right now consists of building ships and blowing each other up. It is not the games fault if you cannot balance ships with each other on a level that presents enjoyable gameplay. If features were in place like the HP system, and balancing ships were still necessary then at that point you could tell me that the game is broken.

    To prove that point. I could make a 300~ meter ship that is entirely dedicated to powering one weapon system and using it to obliterate enemies. At the same time I could build the same sized ship and use it entirely for shielding and not place a single offensive block. That's just a possibility with how the game works. But it's not the games fault for creating what are ridiculous ships.
    Jeez, man. It was a simple question. What the hell was that about looking for an easy way out? After seeing the video I am planning to construct a vessel that is more armor based than shield based. Of course I didn't watch the entire video, I just wanted to see your armored ship.
     
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    You guys don't even need a HP system if you actually balanced your ships with each other. Skip to 8 minutes

    Of course you can armor-tank if each shot hits a different block. Against a pilot with basic aiming skills your core is gone in no time.
     

    Criss

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    Of course you can armor-tank if each shot hits a different block. Against a pilot with basic aiming skills your core is gone in no time.
    Hopefully a change to the whole core-killing mechanic changes this problem. This is of course planned. How it works is still unknown.
     

    Lecic

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    Of course you can armor-tank if each shot hits a different block. Against a pilot with basic aiming skills your core is gone in no time.
    Sure, against an immobile target. Try hitting the same block on a ship going 100 m/s every time.
     
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    Sure, against an immobile target. Try hitting the same block on a ship going 100 m/s every time.
    Armor is good fighter vs. fighter, but it scales really bad with ship size, just like maneuverability. Also, it isn't necessary to hit the exact same block every time with 10+ shots per second.
     

    Criss

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    I'm just going to have to start work on the 1 km battleships from EVE aren't I. I think it will be the only way to actually demonstrate the sizes of systems that are necessary to achieve the balance. People still think big.
     

    Lecic

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    Armor is good fighter vs. fighter, but it scales really bad with ship size, just like maneuverability. Also, it isn't necessary to hit the exact same block every time with 10+ shots per second.
    Depends on how thick and what tier your armor is. 5 blocks thick of advanced armor with passive punch is very powerful.
     
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    Depends on how thick and what tier your armor is. 5 blocks thick of advanced armor with passive punch is very powerful.
    But weapons scale with volume = size^3. Armor simply can't keep up with that.