Recognized Cloak, Jam, and Scan. System Revamp

[Sgtwisky]

I know that this has been gone over before. But while replying to another post... I came up with my own take on the possible changes to cloak/jam/scan that I feel could benefit the game. With my suggestion, each system ties into the others, and (at least on paper) feels like a more balanced, and engaging way to do these systems.

Note: This is a long post so I broke it up into sections with Spoilers.

Spoiler: Cloaking

First Cloaking:

I suggest that cloaking be changed to work more like shields currently do. You have a computer to "activate" the cloaking, You have cloaking "Recharge" blocks, and you have cloaking "Capacity" blocks.

The idea being that the faster you want to charge up your capacity the more rechargers you need, which would always pull power, like shield rechargers. The cloak capacitors would then hold X amount of cloak energy. When full, you're simply losing the excess cloak energy. Mass would still determine how much cloaking energy you use per second.

This way, small ships could cloak easily and if designed right indefinitely. Large ships on the other hand would require capacity rather then high recharge rates. The capacity blocks could work similar to power cap's in that they get more efficient the more that are together (until a cap). Doing that would allow large ships with enough capacitors to cloak for short/medium periods of time.

Now, We have to have a counter to all these battleships like that Klingon bird of pray over there, who can uncloak and unleash hell upon your ship.

Cloaking Balances:
1. When scanned your uncloaked and will receive a cool down.
2. While cloaked your shields capacity is dropped down to a low percentage (for example 15%) This means that if you uncloak your battleship you are at a combat disadvantage. Alpha strikers would be ok but tanking damage wouldn't work.

Spoiler: Jamming

Jamming
With jamming, I would recommend that you just have a jamming computer and modules. The more modules you have, the more "Powerful" your jamming is. The more modules you have, the more power they will draw when the system is on. The more powerful the Jamming system, the more powerful the Scanning System will have to be (Described latter).

Jamming would, when active prevent lock on missiles, and swarm missile lock on, in the sector your currently in. It would also reduce BobbyAI Accuracy. Why the entire sector? Because, if you understand how jamming works (IRL) its just making a louder broadcast that drowns out what ever someone else is sending. AND 1 sector is likely easier to implement then a spherical range.

Spoiler: Scanner

As for the Scanning:
It would work the same way as the Jamming system when in "Passive" mode. So the more modules you have, the stronger it is. Its "Passive" mode extends to the entire sector. Passive mode will "Break through" jamming IF the scanner is more powerful then the jamming.

Example: Player A's Jammer uses 100 Power per second and is active. While Player B's Scanner uses 120 power while in "Passive". Player A's Jammer while on will have zero effect to lock on's and AI targeting.

Example2: Player A's Jammer uses 500 Power per second and is active. While Player B's Scanner uses 120 power while in "Passive" mode. Player A has now reduced the accuracy of all other ships BobbyAI, and has made lockon missiles/swarmers useless by anything but his own ship.

Scanning would also have an "Active" mode which would be the same as its current form. You "Actavate" it and BAM, you get map info, and bring down the cloak of nearby ships.

One other possibility is that an activated scanner would "Drain" X amout from a ships cloak energy, while disrupting regen. This would mean that a 1 module 1 computer scanner couldn't drop the cloak of a battleship. You would need a dedicated scanner system to decloak large ships.

 

[Keptick]

I like it, sounds pretty intuitive, and the idea of capacity and recharge for cloaking is pretty interesting.

About the jamming/scanning thing, I think that it could be a bit problematic since larger ships could easily field scanners able to detect much smaller (and stealthier) ships without sacrifising a significant part of their mass. IMO it might be better to use ratios, along with a downwards efficiency curve. So basically, the scanner/total mass ratio would give a precision value. Larger ships would require higher ratios to obtain the same precision value, the same would apply with jammers.

 

[Sgtwisky]

I like the idea of the precision values. TBH I just kinda wrote all that out as it came to me, so I didn't really think about the way it might be able to be skewed with size. % of mass to achieve a 100% precision though could work. Would mean that IF you wanted your battle ships to be anti cloak capable, they would have to dedicate large amounts of space to it. I like it.

EDIT:
Thinking about it precision introduces a bunch of new problems. One being that small ships can then decloak large ships easy. Will think on it and write up my thoughts when I have something constructive to add.

 

[Nickizzy]

I would make it so scanning reduces cloaking power(lets call it shadow) by a certain amount, so having a massive scanning system could uncloak a battleship, but a 2 block system would barely dent it.

I love the ideas, but I think jamming should be much more powerful than scanning, if you make antijamming a passive thing. If it used more power and had to be activated with the ping, it would make a lot more sense(I would just have a side module on my ship that has a 5,000 power scanner, it would barely dent my power recharge, but I could make jamming useless for most ships.

 

[Criss]

This is actually one of the best thought out ideas on how to handle all three systems. It makes a lot of sense at the moment, and would diversify the types of ships we see. With fleets, this could be even more important. This will certainly be brought to the attention of the others.

 

[nightrune]

I know that this has been gone over before. But while replying to another post... I came up with my own take on the possible changes to cloak/jam/scan that I feel could benefit the game. With my suggestion, each system ties into the others, and (at least on paper) feels like a more balanced, and engaging way to do these systems.

Note: This is a long post so I broke it up into sections with Spoilers.

Spoiler: Cloaking

First Cloaking:

I suggest that cloaking be changed to work more like shields currently do. You have a computer to "activate" the cloaking, You have cloaking "Recharge" blocks, and you have cloaking "Capacity" blocks.

The idea being that the faster you want to charge up your capacity the more rechargers you need, which would always pull power, like shield rechargers. The cloak capacitors would then hold X amount of cloak energy. When full, you simply losing the excess cloak energy. Mass would still determine how much cloaking energy you use per second.

This way, small ships could cloak easily and if designed right indefinitely. Large ships on the other hand would require capacity rather then high recharge rates. The capacity blocks could work similar to power cap's in that they get more efficient the more that are together (until a cap). Doing that would allow large ships with enough capacitors to cloak for short/medium periods of time.

Now, We have to have a counter to all these battleships like that Klingon bird of pray over there, who can uncloak and unleash hell upon your ship.

Cloaking Balances:
1. When scanned your uncloaked and will receive a cool down.
2. While cloaked your shields capacity is dropped down to a low percentage (for example 15%) This means that if you uncloak your battleship you are at a combat disadvantage. Alpha strikers would be ok but tanking damage wouldn't work.

Spoiler: Jamming

Jamming
With jamming, I would recommend that you just have a jamming computer and modules. The more modules you have, the more "Powerful" your jamming is. The more modules you have, the more power they will draw when the system is on. The more powerful the Jamming system, the more powerful the Scanning System will have to be (Described latter).

Jamming would, when active prevent lock on missiles, and swarm missile lock on, in the sector your currently in. It would also reduce BobbyAI Accuracy. Why the entire sector? Because, if you understand how jamming works (IRL) its just making a louder broadcast that rounds out what ever someone else is sending. AND 1 sector is likely easier to implement then a spherical range.

Spoiler: Scanner

As for the Scanning:
It would work the same way as the Jamming system when in "Passive" mode. So the more modules you have, the stronger it is. Its "Passive" mode extends to the entire sector. Passive mode will "Break through" jamming IF the scanner is more powerful then the jamming.

Example: Player A's Jammer uses 100 Power per second and is active. While Player B's Scanner uses 120 power while in "Passive". Player A's Jammer while on will have zero effect to lock on's and AI targeting.

Example2: Player A's Jammer uses 500 Power per second and is active. While Player B's Scanner uses 120 power while in "Passive" mode. Player A has now reduced the accuracy of all other ships BobbyAI, and has made lockon missiles/swarmers useless by anything but his own ship.

Scanning would also have an "Active" mode which would be the same as its current form. You "Actavate" it and BAM, you get map info, and bring down the cloak of nearby ships.

One other possibility is that an activated scanner would "Drain" X amout from a ships cloak energy, while disrupting regen. This would mean that a 1 module 1 computer scanner couldn't drop the cloak of a battleship. You would need a dedicated scanner system to decloak large ships.

Oh! So I was thinking what a drag it would be to have two different systems for jamming and sensors since they really are the same type of gear. I think sensors and jamming should just be combined.

Basically to sense someone you have to give your position away, and to jam you have to give up your sensors.

I'm also for the idea of reducing the power of cloakers while actively scanning. I don't like the instant bam. I think a slow drain is more intense for the stealth plays.

 

[Sgtwisky]

To Nickizzy:
The low numbers I used were just for an example. I imagine the costs/efficiency curve would have to be worked on by the Dev's. I tried to avoid giving any solid numbers for the reason that I have no idea what may or may not work. But I wouldn't think a "Large" scanning system would only costs 5k power recharge.

Spoiler: Me thinking out loud.

Maybe they could have 2 values, a "Power per block" which gets less efficient the more you have, and a "DPS vs Cloak" per block? Not sure what to call it... but your "DPS vs Cloak" would have to be higher then whatever the similar number that cloak blocks would have? Maybe let cloak get more effective to a soft cap till its diminishing returns?

Something I thought of at work today:
It may be better to make it so logic systems cannot activate the scanner in the way I have described it to work. As you could "Spam" it all the time to try and detect cloakers. I think it should be a manual action by a pilot. That way no one (Except the stupid or unlucky) get instant decloaked.

Also although I like a "Passive" mode and "Activate" mode, I realize that it could pose issues in balance. SO.... what about this:
Scanner = the "Active" mode I talked about
Scanner + EMP Clears Jamming for a short time
Scanner + Cannon = Activate and it stays on, but uses more power and has constant drain.
Scanner + Cannon + EMP = "Active Mode" But stays on, uses more power and has constant drain.

SO, this way you have BOTH modes I talked about. AND You can have ether activate once, OR remain on.

EDIT:
After reading what nightrune said Maybe jamming could be scanner + Ion for temporary jamming (actavate once and it lasts as a buff for you for X amount of time unless someone hits you with a scanner?) And Scanner + Cannon + Ion could be the Jamming Like Described in OP where its on all the time? Just a thought.

 

[jgames666]

I agree this is a great idea. Definitely need to think more on the scanners and jammers part to play, but the cloaking idea is superb.

 

[NeonSturm]

A few more thoughts, are these considered?

If you have 120 Jam and the enemy has 120 Scan, he needs to focus all scan arrays on your ship to aim at it.
However if you only have 50 Jam and he has 150 scan, he could aim at 3 different targets at the same time.
But if 3 enemy turrets have 50 scan each and you h ave 100 jam, it doesn't work.

Thus you might have turrets which have a lot of scan and other turrets which life with a more inaccurate aim because it is still useful against big enough targets which they are intended against.

Requiring a high scan value per ship heavily discourages using drones with a low individually fitted amount.


A possible problem is that this encourages gigantism. (that is why I introduced the on-turret basis with the assumption heavier turrets have less aim (maybe their own size multiplied by 2 in target area side length?)

 

[the_Grey_Sky]

Love this idea!!

 

[Achriel]

Great idea.

Linking Scanner & Jammers as opposite end of the same stick could let the 'Antenna' block be used by both. Perhaps Shields and Cloak could be the same? In that using your cloak drops your shield (over time) as they hide you, the recharge works as normal while the shield capacitors act as a 'battery' for running your cloak.

 

[nightrune]

A few more thoughts, are these considered?

If you have 120 Jam and the enemy has 120 Scan, he needs to focus all scan arrays on your ship to aim at it.
However if you only have 50 Jam and he has 150 scan, he could aim at 3 different targets at the same time.
But if 3 enemy turrets have 50 scan each and you h ave 100 jam, it doesn't work.

Thus you might have turrets which have a lot of scan and other turrets which life with a more inaccurate aim because it is still useful against big enough targets which they are intended against.

Requiring a high scan value per ship heavily discourages using drones with a low individually fitted amount.


A possible problem is that this encourages gigantism. (that is why I introduced the on-turret basis with the assumption heavier turrets have less aim (maybe their own size multiplied by 2 in target area side length?)

I feel like you could only need one ship with a big sensor array. It should be helping the other ships. This should stop gigantism.

I was thinking that this should play into comms, but I feel like that's a bit more complicated.

 

[Sgtwisky]

Another thought on anti jamming/cloaking. Maybe instead of using the scanner like we have now, we could just have a "Stealth Inhibitor" that would work the same way as Jump Inhibitors? Think that might be the best route to take. That way the scanner still has its current role of exploration and info gathering about non-stealth objects, and systems.

 

[Lukwan]

From a ECM/tactical perspective the current system is not quite right. ( the word 'Radar' jamming is misleading...we have no Radar-block)

Properly; Scanning is an 'active' system: generating a ping and looking for returns to infer a target's presence (also gives away your own position). Sensors (not currently found as a block in SM) are passive and can be used while being stealthy.
---I would like to see a system that recognizes this difference.---

*Technically It should be impossible to Jam your enemy without also broadcasting your own location with the Jammer's 'active' signal.

Incorporating Sensor-computers and modules would allow a ship's Senor-range to be scale-able. Cloaking & Jamming could be converted to the C-V system allowing the # of Mods to be compared to the # of sensor mods (on the enemy ship) to determine if a ship is visible when cloaking.
The ratio of Jamming and Sensor-mods could be compared to determine if Sensors can 'see' through the Cloaking (passively) or if Jamming can actively mess with sensors.

-Sensors: passively detect for cloaked and regular ships etc.
-Jamming: prevents Missile-lock until successfully out-scanned or out-sensed.
-Scanners: responsible for obtaining target-lock: Scan: Reveal...Lock & Shoot. Scan breaks Cloaking/Jamming, if it has the ratio, allowing missile lock.

Any system should include feedback to the pilot (audible and visual) when they are being pinged or otherwise 'actively' targeted. Sensors, however would not give any warnings or even be noticed as they are not 'targeted' but are passive.

 

[Theodore_William]

I have a similar beef, primarily with cloaking. I've found it pretty much impossible to build even a dedicated stealth ship. It's currently impossible for the block power to be strong enough and the block count to be low enough to compensate for cloaking and jamming to run constantly.

I personally, have plans to construct an observation ship capable of short range movement while cloaked indefinitely. It would be capable of short range scanning as well as quick get away if the cover is blown.

That being said, the idea of having jammers and scanners compete for supremacy over each other is very appealing. I would say that it would need to be balanced in such a way that dedicated stealth ships(dedicated in the sense that it's stealth or run away. No room for weapons.) would be able to out do even relatively strong scanners. This would cause large fleets to compensate by constructing dedicated scanner ships, and for planets to construct satellites.

As for satellites, those could be a separate, station only module that would far exceed the power of stealth jammers, thus making stations rightfully formidable opponents.

All of this is just to make it so that a dreadnought, who's focus is on weapons, would find it very hard to be able to detect stealth ships. It would require the back up of a more vulnerable scanner ship.

NOTE: In many of my examples I use shields to illustrate. Just remember that it's the best system, in my min at least, to show active processing, and the easiest to illustrate with. But most, if not all points apply to the Cloaking, Scanning, and Jamming systems, which are the primary focus. Just...just read.

Spoiler: Cloaker Hit Point System

On the note of tying systems into each other, the cloaking system would have only a small drain on hull/armor blocks, similar to the hit point system. Armor does not contribute greatly to the cloaking drain. What would contribute greatly would be the presence of other systems on the ship. It could be made so that you could shut down other systems in order to reduce the drain. This way, it could be near impossible to have the mega master of all ships, similar to what nightrune was saying. The hit point system carries over very nicely.

Spoiler: Slaving Systems

Another thought considering a "Stealth Scanner", Sgtwisky, is to have the cloaking computer have a passive effect similar to weapons. If it's not connected to the modules(we can call them generators in this example), it can be connected to the Scanner computer to give it the added effect of detecting cloaked ships. Then the amount of information gained would depend on you scanning power. This could carry over any Scanner Master/System Slave relationship. Say my fleet is vulnerable to a specific weapon system. I could connect that computer to the scanner and it would give me a read on not only the ships, but possible system information. This obviously presents it's own problems, however.

Spoiler: Slaving Systems Part 2

In the same vein with linking systems, it could be possible to use the scanner many different ways by combining multiple effects. Perhaps regular scanning would give you basic information as it does now. Let's say we want to detect cloaked ships. Connect a cloaking computer. Disable the cloak? Cloaking computer to detect, damage pulse to disable. This could work in a variety of ways past that. It could be possible to set up a shield disruption ship buy putting in a scanner and slaving a damage pulse and an ion comptuer. The scanner pings a large area already.
Another take on this is that a scanner computer would only grab information. We could add a Field Generator computer, instead of congesting the scanner system.(See "Field Generator")

Spoiler: Field Generator

Concerning a Field Generator, it would act similarly to the scanner, projecting a passive ping every so often. However, instead of information gain, it only works when connected to other systems. This could do various things, anywhere from shield disruption to message projections upon entering a faction's territory. This opens up the ability to use the scanner as an extended version of what it already is by simply adding to it. It also allows large support ships to have more capabilities. With such a flexible system, the types of ships become exponentially greater in number. Scanner ships, shield disruption ships, cloak and radar jammer ships, so on and so forth.
This would NOT eliminate beams. The current support beams would still have their uses, but more on the precision side of things. They'd still have their modular power and modular shield benefits. The Field Generator simply gives this a sector sized or several sector sized area to affect.
One limit that I would set would be that the Field Generator is exclusively support. You cannot weaponize it. That would give you ability to passively cripple ships before they even reach you. This doesn't mean that if a ship loses it's cloak suddenly that it doesn't suffer damage to the system and the ship as a whole. The projected field simply applies a status effect each ping. In turn, opposing fields can be constructed by enemies to combat your shield disruption field. Possibly even turn it against you with a more powerful system of their own.

Spoiler: Power/Mass

Ok, so huge dedicated disruptor ships can greatly support your fleet. But small ships then become VERY vulnerable. Perhaps it could be made so that antenna arrays can function similarly to power modules. The more efficient the array, the more powerful in comparison. Rather than group size, the group power can be determined by the dimensions of the group. This could allow small ships to negate or at least dampen the effects of a projected field, allowing for greater survivability.

Spoiler: The Effect on Fleets

With all that being said, especially considering the versatile Field Generator, this would have a massive impact on fleets. Having so many projected fields at once could cause massive lag spikes. One possible solution is to make it so that if there is multiple fields being projected, they combine into one projection that applies all the effects at once. This in turn presents the issue of different ping rates. It could be made so that the fields combine when their rates match, reducing the lag.
Now for the upside. All of this adds more depth to strategic fleet design. Having a weaponized fleet is great, but a well planned support fleet could easily go toe to toe with that weapon fleet by disrupting and weakening their systems. More strategy, more ships, more gameplay, more fun.

Spoiler: Calculating Fields (WARNING: This one is long.)

(I literally keep thinking of stuff. I'm sorry. My brain just doesn't stop.)
Now, addressing the SEVERE lag. With all these factors being calculated and applied, large fleet battles with lots of fields being generated could suffer substantial performance drop. An idea to address this is to assign ratings. Let's call them classes. Classes would be calculated by factoring in the mass of the ship, the size, dimension, and overall power of the projecting array, and anything else that would apply. This would then be assigned a value, which would then be used when encountering another entity.

(This is a very general example, so the math is far from streamlined.)
So let's say, I have an array projecting a Class 5 shield disruption field. And just for the sake of this example, all fields have a ping rate of 1 ping every 15 seconds. I encounter an entity with no defense against it. The field with drain the shields of the enemy with the power of a Class 5 field. Let's say a Class 5 does 5000 shield damage per ping and causing shields to recharge 25% slower(each class adds 1000 damage and 5% delay). Every 15 seconds that ship would suffer 5000 shield loss and it would take 25% longer to recharge. This would not stack.

Now let's say that the ship entering has a disruption field of it's own. A Class 3. I would easily break through that field, causing that defending field to overheat. However, in order to cancel out their field, I have to match it. So 3 of my power is used in order to break through. Now, I still deal the effect. But now, the effect is weakened to a Class 2. They only suffer 2000 drain, 10% delay. Again, this doesn't stack.

If a field is broken through, it has a delay to start again. This delay is unaffected by the stronger field. So the defending field WILL come back online, but it will most likely be beaten down again and have to cool down from it's overheat. So unlike shields, where once their down, they'll probably stay down, a field is constantly effective. But if it's beaten out, it takes longer for it to come back. This could make it so that you may not be able to negate a mega field, but you CAN buffer the effects.

(My original post ended up huge, and I kept adding to it, so I split it up.)

 

[Madman198237]

All these ideas are interesting, but here's something to think about: Scanner modes.

This is a simple system based only around scanners and jamming, which are, IRL, the same system. An active scanning system can usually generate enough power and "noise" to act as a jammer. Though, to be fair, a jammer can't necessarily listen for a signal.

They're being discussed as "Active" and "Passive" modes. In real life, a similar system is sonar. Passive sonar listens for sounds, active sends out sounds and listens for the echoes. A submarine using passive sonar can be stealthy, a sub using active is not. Same should apply for sensors: They "listen" for, say, EM radiation. So thruster output, scanner/communications systems, everything that outputs light, radio waves, gamma rays, whatever. Perhaps they can be overwhelmed near stars (As in, if you're melting your ship, your scanning system is down as well.) and messed up by powerful jamming.

A scanner in passive mode, however, can give a direction to the source of the jamming. Active gets overwhelmed by the noise from the jammer.

A note: scanners should, when active, detect EVERYTHING nearby, without a "ping" that is manually set off. There could be a "ping" time between detections, but it should be minimal.

Oh, and multiple antennae in a fleet or on faction ships in a certain range should allow for triangulation of signals. This would be great if communications systems are implemented---if enemy faction players are talking through radios, spy ships or stations can "hear" the signals and, if two of them "hear" the signals, they can find its exact location. And light it up on the map for a length of time.

 

[Theodore_William]

All these ideas are interesting, but here's something to think about: Scanner modes.

This is a simple system based only around scanners and jamming, which are, IRL, the same system. An active scanning system can usually generate enough power and "noise" to act as a jammer. Though, to be fair, a jammer can't necessarily listen for a signal.

They're being discussed as "Active" and "Passive" modes. In real life, a similar system is sonar. Passive sonar listens for sounds, active sends out sounds and listens for the echoes. A submarine using passive sonar can be stealthy, a sub using active is not. Same should apply for sensors: They "listen" for, say, EM radiation. So thruster output, scanner/communications systems, everything that outputs light, radio waves, gamma rays, whatever. Perhaps they can be overwhelmed near stars (As in, if you're melting your ship, your scanning system is down as well.) and messed up by powerful jamming.

A scanner in passive mode, however, can give a direction to the source of the jamming. Active gets overwhelmed by the noise from the jammer.

A note: scanners should, when active, detect EVERYTHING nearby, without a "ping" that is manually set off. There could be a "ping" time between detections, but it should be minimal.

Oh, and multiple antennae in a fleet or on faction ships in a certain range should allow for triangulation of signals. This would be great if communications systems are implemented---if enemy faction players are talking through radios, spy ships or stations can "hear" the signals and, if two of them "hear" the signals, they can find its exact location. And light it up on the map for a length of time.

True. This is the way I would like to see it in the future. Streamlined.

This has been mentioned before. Scanner and jammer are the same in a nutshell. But, using other Sci-Fi media as inspiration here, hammers have one job, as do scanners. But there are two different types of jammers, Sci-Fi wise: jammer, and scrambler.

The jammer does what it currently does in game. You become invisible aside from LoS. But a scrambler messes more with your radar. When in range with a scrambler, you're blind aside from LoS. You can't scan, even though you know something is there. So, a combination of jamming and scrambling would be nice to see in game.

One thing to think about is possible for having a radar and/or sonar system itself, aside from the scanner. Say, the scanner has detailed information within a short range and sonar has general information over a larger range.

We can all agree the antennae block needs to stand on it's own for multiple applications. What I want to see is ship diversity. Such as ships not only as vehicles and war machines, but also as tools. Like a pure communications ship. No jammer, scrambler, sonar, or otherwise. Basically a giant mobile relay. Diversity contributes massively to this game. That and scalability.

Also, the ability to triangulate would make gameplay amazing.

Spoiler: Hardening back to a previous statement

I forgot to mention this, but I disagree with the idea of removing auto scan logic usage. I have a couple reasons. One, detecting cloaked enemies is an aggressive act, so that is really another system(*cough* Field Generator *cough*). And two, a cloaked scan isn't necessarily a normal scan. You have to remember, not all ships built will be warships. May are commercial. So their scanners are built for general purpose use(more along the lines of radar or sonar, and a stealth ship would be able to dodge that with ease.). So we do need to remember the commercial side of StarMade. The side vulnerable to stealth ships in every way.

 

[Madman198237]

Hardening back? Did you mean "Harkening back"?

Ummmm.....sonar is IMPOSSIBLE to use in space. SOund Navigation And Ranging, remember? Sounds do not travel well in near-vacuum conditions like those in deep space.

Scramblers are used for encoding communications. Unless your Sci-Fi forgot some of the "sci" and left out one fact: The only way to screw with somebody's EM-emission-detecting-scanner is to bombard them with EM radiation to prevent them from seeing you. Jammer and scrambler=same thing. Different names. Again, a scrambler is, in science fiction and real life, used to encode communications with a prearranged mathematical formula to make it too difficult to break before the battle ends. Jammers flood space with whatever the scanners detect, making it IMPOSSIBLE to detect things, unless your scanner is accurate enough to get the info you need through the mess.

Yeah, the cargo ship thing is good. An active scan should be able to reveal an improperly cloaked ship (One without a correct stealth module-to-mass/block count ratio) if it's powerful enough, but detection should not scale with size. As in, a ship with a 40-block-long antenna array will be able to detect certain stealth ships regardless of the scanning ship's size. You don't sneak up on a Death Star because the antenna was only 20 km long. You just don't. Sorry. But a ship with a higher stealthy-block (EM-absorbing blocks that are also dark-colored, perhaps, along with stealth systems) to total blocks ratio will be harder to detect, requiring a good communications/detection ship or station nearby to see.

There could be long-range versus short-range scanning systems, or simply a range scaling factor----the closer you get to the enemy ship, the more details you get, starting with "There's a ship here, and it's name is ?????????" until the name is revealed, then rough mass, then a more accurate mass (Filling in from 1000000000? mass to 924000000 to 924061035 exactly) and then shields, then everything else.

 

[Theodore_William]

Hardening back? Did you mean "Harkening back"?

Ummmm.....sonar is IMPOSSIBLE to use in space. SOund Navigation And Ranging, remember? Sounds do not travel well in near-vacuum conditions like those in deep space.

Scramblers are used for encoding communications. Unless your Sci-Fi forgot some of the "sci" and left out one fact: The only way to screw with somebody's EM-emission-detecting-scanner is to bombard them with EM radiation to prevent them from seeing you. Jammer and scrambler=same thing. Different names. Again, a scrambler is, in science fiction and real life, used to encode communications with a prearranged mathematical formula to make it too difficult to break before the battle ends. Jammers flood space with whatever the scanners detect, making it IMPOSSIBLE to detect things, unless your scanner is accurate enough to get the info you need through the mess.

Yeah, the cargo ship thing is good. An active scan should be able to reveal an improperly cloaked ship (One without a correct stealth module-to-mass/block count ratio) if it's powerful enough, but detection should not scale with size. As in, a ship with a 40-block-long antenna array will be able to detect certain stealth ships regardless of the scanning ship's size. You don't sneak up on a Death Star because the antenna was only 20 km long. You just don't. Sorry. But a ship with a higher stealthy-block (EM-absorbing blocks that are also dark-colored, perhaps, along with stealth systems) to total blocks ratio will be harder to detect, requiring a good communications/detection ship or station nearby to see.

There could be long-range versus short-range scanning systems, or simply a range scaling factor----the closer you get to the enemy ship, the more details you get, starting with "There's a ship here, and it's name is ?????????" until the name is revealed, then rough mass, then a more accurate mass (Filling in from 1000000000? mass to 924000000 to 924061035 exactly) and then shields, then everything else.

I did mean harkening, yes.

This is all true. I was referring to a jammer as a bit of just "disappearing" from radar and scrambling as screwing with it with distortion, making even communication near impossible. But, you're right, they are technically the same thing.

This is very much a grey area, cause you can make so many excuses with space technology. I think that before we really lay into system designs, we need to determine what is...I guess the guidelines. What is acceptable and what is not. Like sound. No sound. But EM and radiation is acceptable. If that makes any sense. Just in my opinion, we really need a solid base to refer to.

Any of that make sense? Or am I completely crazy?

 

[Madman198237]

Sounds reasonable. You're just as lost as I am----which could mean anything. Depends on the day

Oh: EM and radiation are the same thing---the ElectroMagnetic spectrum is composed of all types of radiation, from gamma rays to visible light to radio waves. There's your science lesson of the day. Tomorrow we start on thermonuclear astrophysics and why today was a waste of time!

You're right on the grey area crap----until Schine says what, we don't know what scanners will detect---EM emissions? Magical distortion caused by your magical engines that take electricity and turn it into magical motion? Does it listen for the squeaks of the tiny, somewhat furry rodents that power our generators? Disturbances in the Force? Gravity waves and disturbances in space and time?

Who knows?

If you ask me, EM is the best candidate, because A. No magic, B. No magic, C. Hopefully never in ours lives will we open one of these logic-defying energy-generating thingies and find rodents and D. No Force....sadly. Also, E: Gravity waves are........difficult......to detect, and useless because ships don't generate much gravity.