Change power all you like, it wont help us.

[Az14el]

It has to be recalculating the size of systems otherwise;
shoot up their weapons groups - no loss in efficiency or dmg
shoot up their power - no loss in regen or capacity
shoot up their effects - no loss in effects ratios
etc

"Gigantism" & "Abuse" are absolutely related to current power mechanics, another benefit of the heat system would be localising the actual cost of all weapon/effect systems, meaning excessively docked ships will be less viable & so less necessary/common.

 

[Az14el]

Its an entire dimension of in combat strategy that such a thing would throw away,
And 'skilled players' wouldn't be able to abuse the current power system if it wasn't so open to 'abuse', that's basic, they're not using cheat engine they're using plain old starmade & problem solving ability.

 

[Az14el]

yes i know the system you're talking about that does not take into account the actual blocks that you have destroyed on the opposing ship, power lines you have directly cut, aux you have hit, effects you have destroyed, weapon groups you have destroyed.. as someone who's taken a ship out of dock once or twice and shot up the odd ship every now and then i can tell you it's kinda an important detail to be able to pick a target area and actually deal meaningful damage to the systems in that area, not just general static debuffs that occur at sys HP stages. That's literally just a pure HP system in which the only strategy in systems design is ratios & block count, and the only strategy in destroying the enemy ship is dropping its HP bars. Please.

 

[Brokengauge]

Please let's not make space ship combat purely attrition based. There's no skill or fun in that! The ai can indiscriminately fire well enough as it is, and it's terrible!

A better power system would make it more rewarding to collecting your system into one spot, but also make it a more lucrative target

 

[Az14el]

The real time calculations are essential not for general block dmg but to actually calculate the damage done to individual systems groups, which is what i'm saying is very important in combat in starmade, we have an entire block for block building system so that we can break away from pure HP systems. Without real time calculation you could destroy a ships entire power grid or weapons groups down to the very last block and they would still be completely functional. That might be acceptable in games where every ship is prefabricated and simply goes up all at once when its HP is through, but not here.

I use a pretty wide range of ships regularly, my smallest that I'll actually fly in combat being 500 mass and biggest nearly 800k mass, most often frigates though (10-20k mass range under my own arbitrary definition of "frigate")

 

[kulbolen]

Hey, kids, it's me. I bet you thought that I was dead. But when I fell over I just broke my leg and got a hemorrhage in my head!

modular ships are fun to me because theyre strong and different and take more thought and experience to put together with a combat power reward to match. they dont really lack variety or force certain build, as i have built and observed others of several very different styles that all worked well.

theyre bad for game performance though so a rework is probably necessary at some point (for game stability not player perception of fairness), but it should take time and be done right because if the game is overhauled poorly it will lose much of its unique charm... this heatbox stuff does not sound like a good way to do it to me, but i have no better suggestion so yeah. this game has a particularly big issue because it has no limits. trying to maintain balance with no limits while keeping stable, interesting, and (relatively) deep engineering mechanics is kinda hard.

but i agree with op about the games chances to succeed as time goes on so its kinda a sticky situation to be in.

 

[kulbolen]

arkudo you are wrong and az14el is right. your suggestion may be a good one to help the game run smoothly though, who knows...

but outcomes can vary a lot based on what blocks, not just pcs, do or dont get destroyed during the course of combat, and thats awesome.

 

[Az14el]

Az14el that is not true, you still can destroy the ship computers to make system loss or damage the core to kick the astronaut, perhaps is hard to believe for you but at combat [AT THIS MOMENT] is more probably loss a computer to stop shoting that weapon or stop using that system, than lose all the blocks from here.

The argument that you use of "strategic" combat by the loss of blocks of that system does not fit with the combat that we have at the moment. At least for intermediate craft sizes.[50 - 200 meters]

If the chunk that the computer was in wasnt being recalculated in real time then destroying that computer would do absolutely nothing but reduce a tiny amount of system HP from the ship, whats not to get?

Coring doesn't even exist anymore, the combat im talking about is valid at any level, while you may not aim at a specific aux group/computer/whatever manually, its destruction makes a huge difference in combat beyond just dropping the green bar a little further.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

The gameplay part is spot on. Right now, in Starmade, nothing really motivates you to play other than the building itself. AI is abysmal both in combat and as a faction. There are no quests. There are no goals, achievements, planets are to be avoided instead of explored, everything's the same anywhere you go, as far as you can fly between 2 server crashes.

I wonder if we could get actual stats of players online - I think the number is stagnant at best, or declining.
There's no risk in combat. You can jump out whenever from a PvE situation, and there are many ways to escape PvP. There is no system in place to actually encourage combat, trading or any type of player-to-player interaction. It actually takes some really devoted server admins/mods to create events that bring players together and keep them entertained because the game itself is incapable of that.

Right now Starmade is little more than a shipbuilding techdemo. Which, after 5 years, is not much of an achievement, whether or not we take into account how long was it only schema doing all the development. It has amazing core mechanics, and THAT IS EXACTLY WHY AT THIS POINT THEY SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE and focus should be shifted towards finishing the half-assed features (NPC factions, NPC crew, shipyards, trading, AI piloting, quests, sound engine and BGM etc.) and actually building a game around them, that has the proper amounts of immersion and interaction to keep players entertained WHILE providing enough stability offline and online to stay playable. And fast, because bigger projects have failed before for taking too long. It's way past the time to redo core elements of the game from scratch. For me it seems Schine doesn't really have the vision how the done game should look like. They have ideas, a ton of them, and new ones come up every day, but no clue how to integrate them into a well-rounded, finished product.
You have to draw the line, guys. It doesn't work otherwise.

 

[Az14el]

I agree that it does have some really cool core mechanics, that imo make starmade one of the better pvp (the tendency for people to hide behind homebase protection or be very far away in multiplayer is another bag of worms that needs work) experiences that I can think of, Depth of knowledge, Engineering & Design skill are key, there's a nearly limitless depth as far as optimal build goes and the optimal can change depending on situation. The reason why I do think it has to change is simply because it heavily rewards a build style that, on a logical path gets worse and worse for the servers as it evolves (thats it, to "balance" rp builds versus practical ones is laughable, if they're practical they're fucking practical and someone who doesn't build for practicality then is still going to complain about it :DDDD), whatever changes are made i really do hope they do keep the "skill wall" and the so called gap between functional and rp builders, this isn't a sign of an unhealthy system on its own its a sign of depth & complexity, and that your efforts can be rewarded more than others based on your knowledge, skill & even willingness to experiment.
But i know that's difficult to balance from both a performance & gameplay standpoint, and among many, even amongst schine staff not very popular. So we have this heat system proposal.

 

[Az14el]

Lose a computer = lose the use of that system, rigth now.

Because its calculated in real time right now for fucks sake ^_^
take away the games ability to check whether or not a computer is still there and you'll find it loses the ability to check if said computer is still there.

 

[Az14el]

Please tell me you are not another guy that make power lines more than "twisted lines" as a power shape for ships, if you use lines instead of "twisted lines" would explain why you lose systems before computers in combat.

Character Attacks: How to Properly Apply the Ad Hominem

 

[Az14el]

Unless you explain a bit you are doing a logical fallacie.

Lets suposse you have really no idea how power mechanics works at this moment, everyone can do that and check it that i am not lying you incluyed Az14el.

The big difference between normal power lines and "twisted lines" are the energy loss that happen when they get damage on a same volume. the "twisted lines" shape to generate power only works on medium and big ships [more 50 meters].

As i said before AT THIS MOMENT your argument about "Strategic damage" It is not functional, it only serves as a concept, you are going to lose the ship or the computer that control that system before that system blocks.

Again without a real time check the loss on either is going to be 0%, if the game can't check in real time it cannot update your ships stats in real time to reflect blocks lost.

Really though I dont give a shit what the difference between normal and twisted lines are, i could be powering my ships with nothing but a single aux reactor and speaking in a made up language and it wouldnt change the fact that the game needs to continuously run a check on every chunk to determine whether or not a block still exists to ever detect it as being destroyed, or even accurately reduce system HP as this also relies on the game knowing what exact blocks are being destroyed.

Changing the subject to who's got the bigger systems dick is childish, you're slipping.

 

[Az14el]

Breaking news! Unless the "power heat" system makes a lot of changes that problem is going to be there but this time with:

- shields
- weapons
- pasive and active efects

You only are going to delete that stuff from energy blocks with the new energy system.

And we're back to square one, yes the problem exists now and is something that should be worked on, however removing it would literally mean no meaningful real-time damage in combat, it would be HP bars vs HP bars, shooting out computers would not matter, shooting out power lines would not matter. While it may be a boost for performance It would be simply the worst dumbing down of combat & building mechanics this game has seen, you're talking about shooting the enemy until his HP drops as the only consideration when effectively destroying an opponent in combat. Nobody who plays this game for pvp wants that and i can be 100% certain of it. You yourself are hugely misunderstanding the game making arguments for your position that your position would render impossible, essentially you don't have a single clue what it is you're asking for. Much like this thread, the intent is absolutely there and understandable, but your arguments are nonsensical and self defeating from the start.

One last reminder because i know what the response is going to be already; without real time checks the game cannot tell when a block has been destroyed, this includes computers AND systems AND literally every single block, and includes such data as their individual HP, armor and shield contributions, even the HP bars would not update without constant checks.

 

[nightrune]

Computationally, there are all sorts of ways to tackle tracking the blocks in a heat box. I doubt, largely, that would be the detractor in the said proposal heat proposal. The devs have stated that they want less system blocks to do more. To accomplish this you can't just buff and reduce values on the current blocks. The games mechanics just don't allow for it. I agree mostly with the move to more consolidated, and less systems blocks. Its one of the most boring aspects of the game, and largely the most important. The current implementation supposedly has a lot of technical barriers stopping it from allowing large numbers of power users (i.e. Lights, and other small items as an example).

The removal of large numbers for power also helps in a technical sense. Representing 0 to 100% would actually be pretty quick and small on modern processors. Fitting likely into a 16bit Float.

Consolidating systems also allows more gameplay features, and fun ones. Right now there is no reasonable way to disable or tackle ships in combat differently. More specifically disabling thrusters so its easier to board, or disarming someone and letting them run. These are the type of things you'll want players and the AI to be able to do. Consolidating systems into locations also makes it easier to describe and show that information to a player to figure out what they want to fire at. This would increase the need for sensors.

Taken as a whole Heat is also a much better candidate for gameplay as a whole. Integration with stealth, and sensors I think would be a boon for other aspects of the game besides straight up slug fests. I imagine hiding in a sun's corona scanning a system in wait. Which you could do with a larger ship instead of having to have cloaking. Where as a smaller ship with a cloak might not be seen or in radar, but heat can detect them.

Comparing to other scifi universes as well. Most ships are mostly interior (possibly movie magic) and actually very little systems. I welcome this change, it might mean I can finally build small viable turrets that can take out something decently sized.

The combination of all of those factors seems like a winner to me. Even though I do think its true our current system works, but I do not believe it works "good enough" to make the engaging universe we all want. A final thought on whether the original proposal was good or not? I don't think it actually matters. It was just a starting point. We'll see where the game is heading soon enough.

 

[kingreol]

you have some good points nightrune. as far as gameplay features.

But starmade has been very big on ratios matter. cram it in. its become THE game to play because of how small the granular changes you can make be.. in a way it is one of the niches carved out that you dont have with the other space sandboxes. so people will feel they must protect it more

 

[Ghent96]

Yes, yes, and more yes. Lots of liking on the OP that devs need to take note of here.

We need core elements of the game completed that we've been asking for .... for 2-3 years now, NOT devs wasting time on a new power system when the old one is just fine.

AI, better server commands, NPC dialogue and mission scripting, better mod support, optimizations galore, more block IDs... this is a small set what we need, devs, not some game-breaking power overhaul that is going to make more players quit.

 

[Az14el]

<SNIP>

I'm really unsure what's actually being said at this point, yes gigantism is one major problem, rail lag & entity creep being another, but listen power generation soft caps with reactors is a per entity deal, regular reactors on a new entity generate strictly & easily demonstrably more than aux reactors on the mothership, the logical conclusion is to use more docked parts, each docked part currently means a new folder of files in the file structure, we all know a PC will read one big file more quickly than an equivalent hundred little files, each single entity generating a handful of files (headers, chunks, other data-y things) and a folder of their own. These also have their own bounding boxes for the sake of collisions, when an in game system is done more efficiently by creating a ever increasing file bloat it's just not sustainable without changes.

You ARE absolutely right that these changes don't have to be what was proposed, nor in my opinion should they be, but as a few people have already said including yourself, I can't give them a better idea, I can be supportive of what i see being done right, and i can cringe painfully at what i perceive to be the terrible flaws and hope to fuck I'm not the only one seeing them. For myself I know perfectly well they need to change, but have no patience for dumbing down of combat mechanics that you may not use or find important but others do use, and do find important.

Some example of games that would not constantly keep track of the individual components of their assets, to the absolute best of my knowledge, would not include anything of the caliber of starmades block for block ship building system, it's taxing on performance, but a thing of absolute beauty for competetive builders.

 

[Deserea]

*Capital Ship = a ship of more than 30k mass or a number near that.

Thats really small...im pretty sure thats just the higher end of weight for a standard frigate, at least i think it is with my limited experience with pvp and such...

The ship i link in my signature would be a capital ship, albiet a terrible one.

And honestly i think alot of the problems with lag could be solved with a weapon rebalance, among other thingns. Not an entirely new system.

 

[Deserea]

Deserea Please get the context i am saying that, split the power system as current one [to less 30k ship mass] and "heat system" [used at ship of more 30k mass].

The heat system proposed by schine is a way to "solve" all the related stuff with the current power, "real time calculations" bottleneck and the abuse they do some players with that. Instead of cutting off certain stuff and keep the current system.

Okay, i can kinda understand that, i still disagree with it, but i can understand it.