Brainstorm This Better Faction War System?

[Snk]

which seemed to be your "grand solution" to the "blowing up homebases while offline" issue.

3v1 may be a bit much, but it is still a solution. The point being, someone has to be online for you to attack their stuff.

 

[Lecic]

I'd much prefer to

1. Use AI fleets to properly defend locations
2. Have varied resource distribution to give people a reason to fight over territory
3. Change control of systems to give FP instead of draining, give additional uses for FP (convert to credits, hire trade guild or pirate mercs, respawn asteroids) and have losing control of a system cause a FP loss

instead of having this system that just encourages higher level players to curbstomp someone who can't defend themselves.

 

[Knack]

I just leave this here:
http://starmadedock.net/threads/knacks-faction-overhaul.7190/

My thoughts about faction points and give reasons to actual start a war.

 

[Effane]

Because its a griefer friendly default getting applied to everyone? Why not flip it around? Have a config setting that lets you turn off homebase invincibility entirely, but leave it on by default.

Anyone that wants to be on a server that has it turned off can go search for one, everyone that just wants to play the game normally has that as the default. Why must the vocal demands of the "I have the right to sit my capitol ship at spawn and shoot anybody that logs in the instant they come online" be the ones that shape the game?
[DOUBLEPOST=1431964070,1431963907][/DOUBLEPOST]Don't get me wrong, a more robust faction war system would be great. But things who's sole purpose is to remove the only protection in the game from people who don't want to fight in the first place is not the answer.

It should be an option set. We have plenty of skilled admins and the knowledge base is growing. Just give us server Admins the tools and we will build the worlds for people to enjoy. Now that being said the 'Vanilla' build of Starmade should be moderated and gentle. In its current state it lacks tools to be effectively PVE, and it lacks tools to be effectively PVP. It needs both, and sometimes the PVP servers need both. I will talk more about the tools we need as server admins to make this happen.

I think I have a better idea. How about players would need to set up beacons (stations with special beacon blocks) to increase mining multiplier? The beacons would need to be spread out throughout the system and obviously, it would be difficult to protect them all. You wouldn't be able to see them on the universe map, only on nav menu and the more you destroy, the more the mining multiplier of the enemy faction decreases while the homebase remains protected. Of course, you can also add turrets to increase their defensive capabilities.

I think this is a good idea, because the more beacons there are in a system, the more likely enemy ships will find one, plus there should be a softcap to how many beacons a faction may have.

I love this idea, it just went into my bucket of things to work on coding on my server. Thank you. I have some ways to make it interesting though.

Like mentioned earlier, faction war needs something to fight over such as much better than average systems that are truly rare, or some resource that isn't widely available. If there's nothing to gain, people arem't keen on risking losing a couple of days worth resources which leads easily to griefing.

Like the old EvE saying, if you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly. You don't go into fair fights when it practically guarantees financial loss for little to no gain.

That said, some siege mechanic might be reasonable, but also some anti-grief measures included. I think in order to siege you'd have to make your faction vulnerable to sieges with considerable duration after you stop sieging, like 2-5 days. Also the siege itself should take more than 24 hours to prevent blizing during offline hours. What I can't figure is how to determine what makes people siegeable without leaving some horrendous loopholes for griefing. All I know is that it shouldn't be possible to get sieged right away and complete immunity shouldn't be the default either.

On semi related note, I also think bases should get a serious buff due to them being completely immobile and generally AI managed... maybe like +100% shield cap, regen and turret damage?

I mean, has anyone ever had any serious trouble with a non-homebase station?

Currently stations are weak because ships are so huge. It should be a siege to kill a station, and having 3M block stations trying to fend off 3M block ships will not end in the stations favor, it can't run away when its injured. I will talk more about this below.

This suggestion kind of completely voids piracy as a viable playstyle.

They may be a minority but they still make up a large chunk of the playerbase, and that needs to be considered.

This ignores that there is no benefit to actively claiming space. There is indeed a mining bonus, but what's to stop someone from going out there, claiming the space to mine, and then unclaiming it when they leave? That issue needs to be addressed first and foremost, because right now claiming space is primarily a disadvantage.

Claiming can be fixed to be a boon. It is currently and very easily possible to make claiming space generate FPs. Sadly there exist nothing to spend them on which has been left to us Admins to work on. We have the commands that we can intercept and run to perform the needed transaction controls but we currently have to write our own code into Wrappers. Very awkward IMO. I am working on much of this but its a lot of work. I have made the faction point generation work though for claiming. In fact its on my groups server, live and has been live for quite some time.

So here is what we really need. Tools.

Factions function as containers (Interface is clumsy but it works). They need a few features.

• PVE Only switch. Must work both ways, can't receive player damage, can't cause player damage. A single way switch will create the griefer effect. Give admins the way to change the toggle rate, criteria and vulnerability via this switch option.
• PVP switch. Give the admins way to change the toggle rate, criteria and vulnerability of this faction via this switch. (IE Lock out timer on switch)
• Alliances should trump Factions for Allied/Hostile/Friendly/Neutral and the Fire at Neutrals. If two factions inside an Alliance try to conflict by declaring war they should get a message.
• Alliances should act like a Superfaction with a membership derived from the Factions cast. Only specific members should come from those factions according to rules in the Alliances configuration (Limit by # from factions, Limit by Rank in Factions, Limit by Election from Alliance Leaders)
• PVE and PVP modes for factions should have different rules for Faction Point gains.
• PVE faction points should come from trading activity, and be lost by system consumption. More Below
• PVP faction points should come from territory and combat activity. More Below
• Mining bonuses for Faction friendly should transfer to Alliance (Not sure if this already exist)

Now to global world issues with PVE/PVP.

• Zone designations. Current protection by sector is problematic as you often end up with 'buddy pirates' floating about. Need a third type of protection that is JUST player versus player protection. Improve the /sector_chmod command by adding another mode (Currently has Peace, Protected and NULL. I would call this new mode Friendly or Lawful)
• Need a better system for creating AND marking these zones. Sometimes its hard to notice when you fly into a protected sector or into a unprotected one. A simple GUI Red Light/Green Light would help there.
• For creating the three types of zones (Lawless(NULL), Lawful(Not in game), Peace and Protected) we need a better tool. It would be nice to 'paint' spheres and cubes with a single command to make these zones. IE a beefed up /sector_chmod command. /sector_chmod_Sphere and /sector_chmod_box would be nice. Sphere would take the Arguments {Center Sector [X Y Z], Radius in Sectors, Modes). Box would take {Upper XYZ Lower XYZ, Modes}

Now for PVE specific issues.

• PVE factions need a way to Earn FPs that is NOT tied to sector claiming.
• Killing pirates, Trading with Players and Trading with NPCs should give this.
• System claims should be a cost, but while a system is claimed it spawns more favorable PVE elements. Asteroids, Special Events (Could make an entire post from special event triggers alone. Think loot chest, derelict ships, pve invaders), Already have the mining bonus which is great
• Special Events list with different actions, timers and effects. A nice XML file with something like the following

<event = ID><-- Makes event
<timer=/><-- Frequency of spawn
<lockout=/><-- Lock out between spawn
<actions><--Begin actions
<Do stuff 1><-- Actions in event (Spawn ships, loot, pickles, nyan cats)
<Do stuff 2>
<Do stuff 3>
</actions>
<success=/><-- condition for 'win'
<reward=/><-- spawn reward?
<failure=/><-- condition for loss
</event>

And Finally PVP centric issues

• PVP factions need points from territory and combat.
• If they kill a player they should get those FP points.
• Controlling territory should gain FPs (Already doable, BUT cannot be separated from the PVE factions.
• PVP centric events should be possible, gotta love code reuse, see above.

The FP system

• The current FP system is actually very flexible to an Admin who is REALLY good at math and geometry. It does need the typos fixed in the XML file, the directions/explanations are awful. (Currently a vague vague with some extra spicy vague sauce. I tinkered with it till I solved its puzzle)
• FPs need to be spendable. They will pile up like credits and need a use. Spawn PVE Events, Spawn Reinforcements, Spawn PVP Events. Should be player initiated by Faction Rank

I am going to stop there. That is a TON to think about. I wrote a paper it seems. I am actually working on some of this on my own server. Some of it is doable with a Wrapper and some coding, but some is still out of reach (PVE faction invuln, Zone Lawful versus protected/peace.)

BTW Comr4de feel free to spoiler block this up if need be. Its not quite war and peace but its big and might hide follow ups.

 

[Mariux]

It should be an option set. We have plenty of skilled admins and the knowledge base is growing. Just give us server Admins the tools and we will build the worlds for people to enjoy. Now that being said the 'Vanilla' build of Starmade should be moderated and gentle. In its current state it lacks tools to be effectively PVE, and it lacks tools to be effectively PVP. It needs both, and sometimes the PVP servers need both. I will talk more about the tools we need as server admins to make this happen.




I love this idea, it just went into my bucket of things to work on coding on my server. Thank you. I have some ways to make it interesting though.



Currently stations are weak because ships are so huge. It should be a siege to kill a station, and having 3M block stations trying to fend off 3M block ships will not end in the stations favor, it can't run away when its injured. I will talk more about this below.



Claiming can be fixed to be a boon. It is currently and very easily possible to make claiming space generate FPs. Sadly there exist nothing to spend them on which has been left to us Admins to work on. We have the commands that we can intercept and run to perform the needed transaction controls but we currently have to write our own code into Wrappers. Very awkward IMO. I am working on much of this but its a lot of work. I have made the faction point generation work though for claiming. In fact its on my groups server, live and has been live for quite some time.

So here is what we really need. Tools.

Factions function as containers (Interface is clumsy but it works). They need a few features.

• PVE Only switch. Must work both ways, can't receive player damage, can't cause player damage. A single way switch will create the griefer effect. Give admins the way to change the toggle rate, criteria and vulnerability via this switch option.
• PVP switch. Give the admins way to change the toggle rate, criteria and vulnerability of this faction via this switch. (IE Lock out timer on switch)
• Alliances should trump Factions for Allied/Hostile/Friendly/Neutral and the Fire at Neutrals. If two factions inside an Alliance try to conflict by declaring war they should get a message.
• Alliances should act like a Superfaction with a membership derived from the Factions cast. Only specific members should come from those factions according to rules in the Alliances configuration (Limit by # from factions, Limit by Rank in Factions, Limit by Election from Alliance Leaders)
• PVE and PVP modes for factions should have different rules for Faction Point gains.
• PVE faction points should come from trading activity, and be lost by system consumption. More Below
• PVP faction points should come from territory and combat activity. More Below
• Mining bonuses for Faction friendly should transfer to Alliance (Not sure if this already exist)

Now to global world issues with PVE/PVP.

• Zone designations. Current protection by sector is problematic as you often end up with 'buddy pirates' floating about. Need a third type of protection that is JUST player versus player protection. Improve the /sector_chmod command by adding another mode (Currently has Peace, Protected and NULL. I would call this new mode Friendly or Lawful)
• Need a better system for creating AND marking these zones. Sometimes its hard to notice when you fly into a protected sector or into a unprotected one. A simple GUI Red Light/Green Light would help there.
• For creating the three types of zones (Lawless(NULL), Lawful(Not in game), Peace and Protected) we need a better tool. It would be nice to 'paint' spheres and cubes with a single command to make these zones. IE a beefed up /sector_chmod command. /sector_chmod_Sphere and /sector_chmod_box would be nice. Sphere would take the Arguments {Center Sector [X Y Z], Radius in Sectors, Modes). Box would take {Upper XYZ Lower XYZ, Modes}

Now for PVE specific issues.

• PVE factions need a way to Earn FPs that is NOT tied to sector claiming.
• Killing pirates, Trading with Players and Trading with NPCs should give this.
• System claims should be a cost, but while a system is claimed it spawns more favorable PVE elements. Asteroids, Special Events (Could make an entire post from special event triggers alone. Think loot chest, derelict ships, pve invaders), Already have the mining bonus which is great
• Special Events list with different actions, timers and effects. A nice XML file with something like the following

<event = ID><-- Makes event
<timer=/><-- Frequency of spawn
<lockout=/><-- Lock out between spawn
<actions><--Begin actions
<Do stuff 1><-- Actions in event (Spawn ships, loot, pickles, nyan cats)
<Do stuff 2>
<Do stuff 3>
</actions>
<success=/><-- condition for 'win'
<reward=/><-- spawn reward?
<failure=/><-- condition for loss
</event>

And Finally PVP centric issues

• PVP factions need points from territory and combat.
• If they kill a player they should get those FP points.
• Controlling territory should gain FPs (Already doable, BUT cannot be separated from the PVE factions.
• PVP centric events should be possible, gotta love code reuse, see above.

The FP system

• The current FP system is actually very flexible to an Admin who is REALLY good at math and geometry. It does need the typos fixed in the XML file, the directions/explanations are awful. (Currently a vague vague with some extra spicy vague sauce. I tinkered with it till I solved its puzzle)
• FPs need to be spendable. They will pile up like credits and need a use. Spawn PVE Events, Spawn Reinforcements, Spawn PVP Events. Should be player initiated by Faction Rank

I am going to stop there. That is a TON to think about. I wrote a paper it seems. I am actually working on some of this on my own server. Some of it is doable with a Wrapper and some coding, but some is still out of reach (PVE faction invuln, Zone Lawful versus protected/peace.)

BTW Comr4de feel free to spoiler block this up if need be. Its not quite war and peace but its big and might hide follow ups.

I've actually made a seperate thread about my idea, you can check it out if you like.

 

[Edymnion]

Implement a credit cost to make a faction.

Money is meaningless at this point.

I can easily make 100 million in less than an hour without even mining a single asteroid. And considering the invincible home base and the huge mining boost are the only way a newbie can really get established in the first place, it can't be expensive to make a faction. Anything that a new player can afford is utterly meaningless to anyone thats been on a server for more than even a couple of days.

All you need are heatseekers and enough shields that the pirates can't hurt you, and you've got unlimited money.

 

[Ptotheextreme]

Very nice indeed...keep up with the suggestions

 

[Ptotheextreme]

What i have understood from this is that this whole siege idea would cause issues in the neutral player section and might have lots of griefing oportunities if not corrected, and still we have no real reasons to get a system claimed for a very long time.

I would really like to have lengthy fights specially if defending or attacking a base.
I guess bases(all stations or owned planets) could also have FPs assigned to them to become invulnerable and sieging could be applied to them.
[DOUBLEPOST=1432241841,1432241697][/DOUBLEPOST]Can any1 tell me what the devs think about this?

 

[Effane]

What i have understood from this is that this whole siege idea would cause issues in the neutral player section and might have lots of griefing oportunities if not corrected, and still we have no real reasons to get a system claimed for a very long time.

I would really like to have lengthy fights specially if defending or attacking a base.
I guess bases(all stations or owned planets) could also have FPs assigned to them to become invulnerable and sieging could be applied to them.
[DOUBLEPOST=1432241841,1432241697][/DOUBLEPOST]Can any1 tell me what the devs think about this?

I think the Devs aren't ready to tackle something like this yet. They might bring in the features but I don't foresee them trying to over think the systems quite yet. I would expect to see Faction changes soon since that should be easy, maybe some more commands for admins and maybe some existing XML clarifications and moving initialization to the XML. This would be a much more complex system to work on and will likely be more doable when they slot the AI work. We don't have a road map so we just don't know.

TL;DR Be patient, lets keep feeding the Good Idea Fairy till she is nice and fat and easy to catch.

 

[Ptotheextreme]

TL;DR Be patient, lets keep feeding the Good Idea Fairy till she is nice and fat and easy to catch.

I like your style >_>

 

[whooplaah]

Here are a couple of threads that deal with FP systems and war:

Titans and Capital Ships Only Work Near Faction Space:

Spoiler

http://starmadedock.net/threads/balancing-mega-ships-without-nerfing-mega-ships.7585/

Basically, that thread says:

1) Change how power reactors scale. They are the same effectiveness on small/medium ships, but are less effective on large ships. This means that titans and capital ships will need some 'alternative' power source.

2) Make a new block that is factioned. Consider it a factioned power reactor. Adding this block to a ship will increase the efficiency of power reactors on large scales. However, a faction can only have a certain number of these blocks in use simultaneously.

3) Being in a faction owned sector, or only one sector away, has the same effect on a ship as if it had the factioned reactor module.

A faction can only support X number of large ships if they are far from faction owned territory. This means that large ships that are far away from faction territory have energy problems and are less efficient - pushing gameplay more towards medium/small ships for this situation. Expanding faction territory is necessary to keep large ships mobile, and for increasing the number of large faction ships that can be outside faction space at one time.

NPC Factions Own Territory and Faction Points Are Used to Add NPCs to Faction:

Spoiler

http://starmadedock.net/threads/dynamic-galaxies-universe.6784/

There were a couple of good points in this thread. The OP suggested NPC factions working just like Player factions. Ships go around claiming territory and waging war. FP has to be managed, so the NPC Faction gains/looses ground over time. It forms allies and enemies. Factions are created and destroyed over time. All of this is simulated in numbers, though nearby sectors might get visitors from aggressive NPC factions.

Likewise, players can spend FP to add NPCs to their faction. Unlike Bobby Drones, the NPCs can be given patrol routes, and cost FP over time as 'payment,' and will function while the players are offline (at least in the simulation of NPC faction interactions). Once astornaut mode is expanded, maybe the NPC's have skills, or need food, or equipment.

This makes faction wars more interesting because even small factions can now have an armada of ships. A faction might save up all their FP, then hire 100 NPCs to lead a strike on an enemy, then 2 hours later run out of FP and loose all the hired mercenaries. Or perhaps a faction hires 10 NPC's and because of the pay they can't gain FP over time anymore, but they don't loose FP either.

Add this to what I said earlier...

Spoiler

So I'd suggest:
1) A minimum number of enemy faction players required to be in a sector to perform a siege. Maybe they don't all need to be from the same faction, if all of the factions present are at war with the defending faction.

2) A siege requires that an enemy faction have at least one factioned space station in the sector they are besieging.

3) A siege results in a loss of 10 FP per hour, modified by 10 for the number of players participating in the siege. For example, it takes 3 players to start a siege (-10 FP) and then 2 more players join the siege (-20FP per hour); so a 5-player siege results in a 30FP loss per hour. It will take a large number of players to siege a faction, particularly if the faction has any active members.

4) A siege cannot remove the last FP of a faction unless all members of that faction are considered inactive. A player must be killed, or the maintenance cost of the sector must drain the last FP. This helps combat the loss of sectors while members are at work/having a life.

...and you get an FP system with many uses beyond maintaining territory/bases.