Brainstorm This Better Faction War System?

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    I think the faction-point cost of homebase size should be enough.
    Factions spending under a certain amount of points on their home base should be immune to sieging. Meant for 1-3 player factions.
    Perhaps an extended cap depending on percentage spent, or "reinforcing" with extra faction points? Meant for 2-5 player factions.
    This also gives missions and such more value.
     

    Snk

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    Because its a griefer friendly default getting applied to everyone? Why not flip it around? Have a config setting that lets you turn off homebase invincibility entirely, but leave it on by default.

    Anyone that wants to be on a server that has it turned off can go search for one, everyone that just wants to play the game normally has that as the default. Why must the vocal demands of the "I have the right to sit my capitol ship at spawn and shoot anybody that logs in the instant they come online" be the ones that shape the game?

    Even in MMOs, the statistics show that PvP'ers are in the minority, so why do we keep bowing to their every demand?
    [DOUBLEPOST=1431964070,1431963907][/DOUBLEPOST]Don't get me wrong, a more robust faction war system would be great. But things who's sole purpose is to remove the only protection in the game from people who don't want to fight in the first place is not the answer.
    I'm really annoyed with you right now. We recognize that you only enjoy PvP with no consequences, but others don't and the fact you fail to see that other people would benefit from this suggestion, Star made is an open world game where anything can happen. It is fine that you don't see it that way, but don't drag everyone else into the mud because of it.
     
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    I'm quite sad to see the development of this thread from "brainstorm this" to a personal feud between a couple of players. No new ideas means "death" for a thread like this, so please stop talking about one and the same problem. HB should always be invulnerable so that everyone could have a safe port, both the PvP and the build players. But IMO there should also be a certain motivator for PvP players to venture beyond their homebases and home sectors.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1432022051,1432021276][/DOUBLEPOST]
    To stay with the VW Beatle analogy, it might look simple from the outside, but the inner mechanics of its engine are more complex and scientific than most people would believe.

    So simple things arent the best, complex things that look simple from the outside are the best.

    I had a Beatle and 2 other small cars, and gues which one was the easiest to repair ?
    Look at german and ussr tanks, or almost any other example, overthinking kills.
     
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    What about making factions want to have more bases? These bases wouldn't be invicible but it would generate some sort of income for main faction. Let's say some kind of mines, labs etc. It would make possible to siege bases and also would make game more fun.
     
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    It could be improved in diferent ways depending on witch way the games wants to go:
    1) Do something like eve where you have a "high sec" space where no pvp peaple could stay with invulnerability, but sharing the system with others.
    2) Force players to use faction points to make his base invulnerable.
    Today there is no much players on each server, but if there was, you would see a lot of empty systems as home base from not active factions
     
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    Yeah, I just realised why the original idea sounded so bad. This would be like EVE nullsec without the dockable stations and relatively safe Player Operated Stations with their bubble shields, and without the logoff safetywarp. So basically just the gankfest.

    So, like we've come across in many content related threads, we need to create a world with meaningful places and differing danger levels, with some safe havens for players to go when they can't play for a while and enough incentive to move out into the dangerous areas when they do have the time (and people). Homogenic space has to go, even in this day and age of happy rainbows and all that. I'd say that the default game mode should be friendly, or at least accomodating to players who play a couple of days per week for few hours, but that doesn't mean that they have to be able to go into the bad parts of the universe and just live there without fear. Config options for the cutthroats or more pve oriented styles shouldn't be too hard to add I think.

    I think that beyond saying some sort of siege system is good idea for dealing with homebases in faction warfare it's a bit of a shot in the dark - we don't want to force everyone to hardcore pvp in default game, because that's a niche crowd just like complete carebear pure pve. I doubt there's ever going to be a consequenceless pvp in Starmade, beyond arranged arena matches and the like. At the very least you'll lose the ship and whatnot.

    What we really need to start with in my opinion, is to find the reason WHY. Once we have the reason we can figure out logical triggers and mechanisms to enable full scale wars that aren't griefing first and foremost. Why do we risk our assets in war? Why do we venture into the fray? Why do we not just keep the homebase system, mine it empty and move it to next system when it's calm and evil people are offline?

    Do remember that playing it safe doesn't have to be a bad option by default, just that with risk the payoffs should be greater. I haven't figured out any great ideas, basically just some stuff with better ore density or some such... maybe we could go EVE tech 2 style and have some modules require materials that are only found at any large quantities at certain areas of the galaxy. Maybe the effect modules and computers, gate modules, advanced armor... to throw around some non-essential stuff that might be the "end game" gear. Hell, maybe even some t2 power or shield modules for that extra 10-15% oomph now that we're not trying to combat gigantism with them. Or nasty, nasty t2 weapons with exponentially scaling power consumption to make them the go for modules when building small weapons. Although I guess those would end up being turret guns because of the cost.
    edit: for richer areas to work as focal point of faction war, the wealth should be renewable or infinite in some way (planet mining, daily respawning asteroids or some such) to make them long term goals. /edit

    Should rare minerals and blocks behind them become a thing, we'd need some credit sink too to encourage trading, but again I'm fresh out of awesome ideas. Maybe allow hiring of npc mining fleets to excavate your controlled systems and bring back minerals in large quantities but rather high price? That could be just math and some random spawns that reduce the amount if destroyed (or if the selected are has no activity, a fixed %), transaction could be done through NPC at your station or a block.
     
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    I like the idea of the OP, but really the popularity of the idea depends on how it is implemented.

    Default values are that owning a sector costs 1 FP, and that's adjusted by it's distance to the faction home base. Each active member of the faction gives 20 FP, and each online member gives 50 FP. Dying causes a loss of 20 FP + 20 x the number of active members.

    A sector is a big area, and it is easy for a small ship to hide in - especially if cloaked. It wouldn't make sense for a single one-block fighter to 'siege' or 'occupy' an entire sector. In war, occupation and sieges take forever to amount to anything, so the FP drain should be small.

    So I'd suggest:
    1) A minimum number of enemy faction players required to be in a sector to perform a siege. Maybe they don't all need to be from the same faction, if all of the factions present are at war with the defending faction.

    2) A siege requires that an enemy faction have at least one factioned space station in the sector they are besieging.

    3) A siege results in a loss of 10 FP per hour, modified by 10 for the number of players participating in the siege. For example, it takes 3 players to start a siege (-10 FP) and then 2 more players join the siege (-20FP per hour); so a 5-player siege results in a 30FP loss per hour. It will take a large number of players to siege a faction, particularly if the faction has any active members.

    4) A siege cannot remove the last FP of a faction unless all members of that faction are considered inactive. A player must be killed, or the maintenance cost of the sector must drain the last FP. This helps combat the loss of sectors while members are at work/having a life.
     
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    I got another idea that should solve alot of details:

    I understand that some people dont want to be part of faction wars but they like the server and the people alot (or want to be a neutral developing faction).


    So i suggest adding the feature to join the Trading Guild.

    When inside the Trading Guild:

    -You cannot claim systems;

    -You cannot mine on other claimed systems;

    -You cannot be sieged or siege another;

    -You can only have one invulnerable base(one per player);

    -If you attack another player faction you are kicked from the Trading Guild for a very long time;

    -If you are attacked (station or ship), a Trading Guild fleet appears to help you;

    -And you cant enter claimed systems(maybe);

    I enjoy this idea, because people have an incentive to wage war for that sweet mining bonus, people can relax and leave and join whenever they want, the neutral players dont get overpowered and cant secretly plan to takeover everything because they cant mine on claimed systems.

    Specially the espionagem part >.> , they shouldnt be able to enter claimed systems(unless there was already a neutral player station there before it was claimed).


    All else is fair game outside the Trading Guild :)
     
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    1) No player should *EVER* be forced into PvP if they don't want to fight another player. Have PvP flags or something like that, those who want to PvP can turn theirs on and PvP all the live long day. Those who just want to mine and build can keep theirs turned off and not have to worry about being harassed.
    This suggestion kind of completely voids piracy as a viable playstyle.
    Even in MMOs, the statistics show that PvP'ers are in the minority, so why do we keep bowing to their every demand?


    They may be a minority but they still make up a large chunk of the playerbase, and that needs to be considered.
    -The more systems the enemy faction has claimed the slower the rate is (maybe alot slower).
    This ignores that there is no benefit to actively claiming space. There is indeed a mining bonus, but what's to stop someone from going out there, claiming the space to mine, and then unclaiming it when they leave? That issue needs to be addressed first and foremost, because right now claiming space is primarily a disadvantage.
     
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    This ignores that there is no benefit to actively claiming space. There is indeed a mining bonus, but what's to stop someone from going out there, claiming the space to mine, and then unclaiming it when they leave? That issue needs to be addressed first and foremost, because right now claiming space is primarily a disadvantage.
    If they unclaim a system they get a huge reduction to the faction points.
    (if they do it within 3 days after claiming it)
    [DOUBLEPOST=1432066464,1432066022][/DOUBLEPOST]So to add even more here's another probable feature:

    -all faction stations can have faction points assigned to them;

    -as long as said station has more than 0 FPs it is invulnerable;

    -the siege system will also take points from said station;

    -the number of claimed systems still decreases the siege rate of attacking factions;

    -the homebase is the hardest to siege;
     

    Lecic

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    The primary thing to remember is that isolationists should still be able to attacked and killed. It is just the way the game works - if you want to shell up on your little planet and stay invincible, that isn't fair to everyone else. You're denying this server a source of PvP combat. On the other hand, if you want to waltz around the map shooting up newblets, that is a dick move and that person should fly into a star.
    Shooting newbies is a dick move, but shooting a small faction on a far away planet isn't? Go fight someone who wants to fight.

    Bruh. Not everyone plays on build servers. This is an open world game. If I wanna conquer, I should be able too.
    Go conquer someone who's near your level. Shooting up some 3 man faction who live on a refurbished abandoned station and fly around in little ships is a dick move.

    If you loose things in a fair fight, there should not be a problem.
    Getting blown up while offline is a fair fight?

    It isn't griefing if there is someone online to defending their holdings.
    You suggested that a 1:3 ratio for attacking be allowed, but how is that fair? It's a 3v1 battle, and it's not even one you can use superior maneuvering to overcome, because you need to defend a fixed position.

    for the lulz ill just call it "The Carebear Uproar!"
    for the lulz ill just call it "The Griefer Crybaby Fest"

    This isn't a suggestion for a fair(ish, you shouldn't engage in a fight you have a 50% chance of losing) fight between two factions. It's a suggestion to allow gargantuan factions to curbstop some guys who just joined a week ago.
     
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    Edymnion

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    you fail to see that other people would benefit from this suggestion, Star made is an open world game where anything can happen. It is fine that you don't see it that way, but don't drag everyone else into the mud because of it.
    No, I see it just fine. What you and the others don't see is that it applies both ways.

    If you want devastating total war combat that wipes out everything you do, thats fine. I don't.

    So whatever changes you want to make to make faction war more enjoyable, thats great, but leave me out of it!

    OP's suggestion of being able to remove someone's home base invincibility would apply to PvP'ers and PvE'ers alike. By default, if you shoot at somebody you both go to war, if you're both on or not. That means somebody could go to war with me, destroy everything I own, and leave me to come back to an empty wasteland when I come back on.

    I do not find that acceptable in any shape, form, or fashion.

    Take your own advice, its fine if you don't understand that I don't want to have my entire game history destroyed while I'm asleep, but don't drag me down into the griefer mudpit just because you want to gank some n00bs.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1432067625,1432067388][/DOUBLEPOST]


    They may be a minority but they still make up a large chunk of the playerbase, and that needs to be considered.
    Considered? Sure.
    But it doesn't mean a minority gets to make the game actively worse for the majority, for no other reason than to be allowed to grief newbies.
     
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    for the lulz ill just call it "The Griefer Crybaby Fest"

    This isn't a suggestion for a fair(ish, you shouldn't engage in a fight you have a 50% chance of losing) fight between two factions. It's a suggestion to allow gargantuan factions to curbstop some guys who just joined a week ago.
    Get your own jokes :p

    Fun and sarcasm aside, i already said that this threads suggestion is not the right solution in my opinion.
    If you ask me on "established faction vs new faction", i believe that new factions need some way of gaining a time limited protection status so they have time to set up defences, and can expand and grow. But then factions also need to be more difficult/expensive to create to prevent faction creation spam to abuse that protection, which would also encourage people to search for factions or band together instead of just making yet another one man or small friend group faction. That in turn would requiere other faction changes again, mostly about faction security... and on and on and on... In short, a solution that benefits everybody is rather complex, and would need full config support so pure PvE servers can exist.

    but leave me out of it!
    Again: Configs, nobody forces you to take part in this or use the option.
     
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    Sigh...
    Im doing my best to pitch some ideas here, and yet i am seeing mostly just posts about constant pointers to the same problem.
    I get it!
    Just please read all the features that i have mentioned and give me some feedback atleast...
     
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    Just please read all the features that i have mentioned and give me some feedback atleast...
    Alright.

    I suggest adding to the current system a way to siege an enemy homebase by being in the same sector as the homebase, and by being there it removes faction points from the enemy faction's point pool per minute.
    Wrong point to start changing faction vs faction wars, the only thing this would allow is to destroy homebases, but it would still leave war largly meaningles.

    A faction has a grace time when created. ( 7 days maybe, and cannot be sieged);
    Can be abused, delete and recreate a faction to regain it.

    The siege only works when the 2 factions are at war;
    Which is so easy to set, that this is nearly meaningles.

    The enemy players must be online in the sector and uncloacked for it to work;
    Would still be to rather derpy, if it features any spots you could use for hiding: drone spam it, fly in with a tiny jamming ship while the defence is busy with the drones, hide in some spot and stay there jammed. So at least you would also have to include jamming, but without jamming or cloaking, the average (nearly titan killer size) home base turrets will shred you before you drained any meaningfull amount of points.

    All of the current faction system details remain the same, the siege system is just an addition
    That system needs an overhaul instead of just an addition.

    (More players means a stronger faction now)
    More players already means a stronger faction, as more players means more people who can gather resources and pilot ships.

    This will also incourage more expansion and a more dynamic universe.
    I cant see how this would make the universe more dynamic, care to explain?

    (and also want to remove factions from the galaxy map that have been offline for a long time and have made no progress >.> )
    This should not be a solution to remove abadoned factions, as this would requiere it to work without anyone of the besieged faction being online, which means it could be abused for zerging factions with no players online. Implementing a function that slowly drains the FP after a faction had no online members for some longer time span, would be a better solution for that.
     

    Lecic

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    Can be abused, delete and recreate a faction to regain it.
    Implement a credit cost to make a faction. Or make it so you can't make a new faction for a configurable amount of time after deleting one. Or just have server administrators do something about it if someone is abusing it.
     

    Snk

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    o whatever changes you want to make to make faction war more enjoyable, thats great, but leave me out of it!
    Sure thing.

    Most of your post is really sarcastic and irrational. A lot of your points have been addressed already.

    There is nothing I can contribute to this discussion. This thread is a clusterfuck.
     

    Lecic

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    Most of your post is really sarcastic and irrational. A lot of your points have been addressed already.
    How is my post sarcastic, irrational, or already addressed? I see nothing about pointing out the flaws of the 3v1 system, which seemed to be your "grand solution" to the "blowing up homebases while offline" issue.
     
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    Well I wouldn't worry much about the fairness of the actual siege beyond sneaksiege (afterall, sieging is about controlling movement around a fortified location), rather the fairness should be on strategic level where risking the siege is a conscious choice. Of course having the chance to react to the siege is important, but I think nobody denies that.

    I like the idea of siege stations but combined with sieges taking a long time, keeping them alive seems very difficult unless you are seriously outclassing your enemy.