AI Turret random laser deviation

    Do you like the AI's random gun deviation?


    • Total voters
      21

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    I would much rather have the settings for the TURRET AI and the SHIP AI be different. Combining them (like they currently are) seems like a bad move to me since they serve pretty different purposes.

    Edit: Specialized turrets will always be better at that role than multifunction turrets of the same size, this is pretty balanced imho. Lecic
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    Joined
    Mar 2, 2014
    Messages
    1,293
    Reaction score
    230
    • Thinking Positive
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    As we starmade veterans may know, fighters are close to useless fighting capital ships with powerful turrets simply because the turrets designed to be used against other capital ships would kill your fighter almost instantly due to the damage of those big turrets and the AI's high accuracy.
    As suggested elsewhere bigger turrets should have slower turn rates (which is already planned iirc). This should be enough to make them useless versus small fighters.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Sven_The_Slayer

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    As suggested elsewhere bigger turrets should have slower turn rates (which is already planned iirc). This should be enough to make them useless versus small fighters.
    I think that a reduced cone of fire for turrets would do just fine. Even if they have 100% accuracy they can't turn to face smaller ships.
     
    Joined
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages
    2,811
    Reaction score
    960
    • Councillor 3 Gold
    • Wired for Logic
    • Top Forum Contributor
    I think that a reduced cone of fire for turrets would do just fine. Even if they have 100% accuracy they can't turn to face smaller ships.
    yeah I really want them to not shoot sideways out of their barrels. You would really have to plan turrets locations better to eliminate blind spots too.
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    I don't agree with u on that point. It's like saying a tank can't have a machinegun mounted next to the turret or on top because that would make it to omnipotent, thus unfair.
    True, but a machinegun on a tank would turn as fast as the big turret it was attached to. And if you had the machinegun on a separate turret, it would be a chain docked turret on the main turret.
     
    Joined
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages
    2,811
    Reaction score
    960
    • Councillor 3 Gold
    • Wired for Logic
    • Top Forum Contributor
    True, but a machinegun on a tank would turn as fast as the big turret it was attached to. And if you had the machinegun on a separate turret, it would be a chain docked turret on the main turret.
    We can't chain dock turrets to turrets, (yet) I've tried

    But that is a fair point, you can have a massive turret with smaller guns in it, but it will still be bound by the same balancing factors when they are introduced.
     
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages
    1,036
    Reaction score
    222
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    I don't agree with u on that point. It's like saying a tank can't have a machinegun mounted next to the turret or on top because that would make it to omnipotent, thus unfair.
    Well obviously you haven't experienced the pain of having your fighter blown up by a turret 10 times it's size. Your arguement is completely invalid with your thesis being " I am too lazy to build different turrets thus I disagree with an idea that could have multiple benefits to the game"

    No one said you can't have a point defence turret next to your big guns
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Lecic and Unnamed25

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    Well obviously you haven't experienced the pain of having your fighter blown up by a turret 10 times it's size. Your arguement is completely invalid with your thesis being " I am too lazy to build different turrets thus I disagree with an idea that could have multiple benefits to the game"

    No one said you can't have a point defence turret next to your big guns
    You missed his point. He was saying that having different weapons combinations in a single turret should not be made impossible. Like mixing missiles and lasers into the same turret, for example.
     
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages
    1,036
    Reaction score
    222
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    As suggested elsewhere bigger turrets should have slower turn rates (which is already planned iirc). This should be enough to make them useless versus small fighters.
    May I remind you that reduced turn rate means turrets would be more likely to hit slower moving targets rather then faster moving ones, which would mean that will only work if fighters were faster then capital ships which currently they are not, meaning that if the turn rate was to be reduced then there would be no point building turrets at all because they would not be able to hit anything.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Unnamed25
    Joined
    May 6, 2013
    Messages
    303
    Reaction score
    147
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    I enjoy having both longer range damage beams and faster missiles and AMC on my server. The AI are fairly inaccurate, but generally hit large targets and occasionally hit small fast ones. I dislike core drilling.
     
    Joined
    Oct 8, 2013
    Messages
    136
    Reaction score
    96
    Well obviously you haven't experienced the pain of having your fighter blown up by a turret 10 times it's size. Your arguement is completely invalid with your thesis being " I am too lazy to build different turrets thus I disagree with an idea that could have multiple benefits to the game"

    No one said you can't have a point defence turret next to your big guns
    You know little to pretty sure non of me or my builds to actually make a claim like that. If you would, you would know that most of my builds (if they can support it) have multiple types of turrets on them, most of them for a multi use and a mix of small and medium to large turrets.

    Your claim that the idea has only benifits is just wrong, it will kill a part of the creative turret design as a turret HAS to be as small in mass as possible in order to be effective.

    Do I support the use of multiple size and types on a ship, yes. Do I support your idea to kill smart designs, no.
     
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages
    1,036
    Reaction score
    222
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    You know little to pretty sure non of me or my builds to actually make a claim like that. If you would, you would know that most of my builds (if they can support it) have multiple types of turrets on them, most of them for a multi use and a mix of small and medium to large turrets.

    Your claim that the idea has only benifits is just wrong, it will kill a part of the creative turret design as a turret HAS to be as small in mass as possible in order to be effective.

    Do I support the use of multiple size and types on a ship, yes. Do I support your idea to kill smart designs, no.
    Fine, in that case the solution is simple, take the number of weapon blocks in a weapon system instead of the total mass of the turret.
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    You missed his point. He was saying that having different weapons combinations in a single turret should not be made impossible. Like mixing missiles and lasers into the same turret, for example.
    Different weapon combos on a single turret is not impossible, just as having a machine gun and cannon on a tank turret is not impossible. However, unless the tank machine gun is on a separate turret attached to the main one, it can only turn as fast as big gun can. If you tied a pistol to an artillery gun for close range small target defense, it would still be limited by the size and turning speed of the big gun.

    May I remind you that reduced turn rate means turrets would be more likely to hit slower moving targets rather then faster moving ones, which would mean that will only work if fighters were faster then capital ships which currently they are not, meaning that if the turn rate was to be reduced then there would be no point building turrets at all because they would not be able to hit anything.
    This will be less of a problem when the changes to thrust are added, as fighters that can turn fast will not need to put many points in side/up/down thrust while a bigger ship will need to if it wants to be able to go that direction without turning for ages.

    BIG turrets would not be able to hit small ships, only bigger ships, if turn speeds were changed. Smaller point defense turrets would still be able to hit fighters and shuttles. This wouldn't make every single turret have the same turn speed, and that speed be super slow, but rather mass based (or preferably based on the mass of the weapons systems).

    You know little to pretty sure non of me or my builds to actually make a claim like that. If you would, you would know that most of my builds (if they can support it) have multiple types of turrets on them, most of them for a multi use and a mix of small and medium to large turrets.

    Your claim that the idea has only benifits is just wrong, it will kill a part of the creative turret design as a turret HAS to be as small in mass as possible in order to be effective.

    Do I support the use of multiple size and types on a ship, yes. Do I support your idea to kill smart designs, no.
    A turret would not need to be small in order to be as effective as possible. A turret would simply need to be small to deal with fast moving ships. A small turret would not be effective against a capital ship, and a large turret would not be effective against a little fighter.

    This would advance creativity because more people would build varied turrets because they actually have to, as opposed to now, where the only reason people build smaller turrets is because they lack the needed space on the ship it's attached to, or because their turret is so big that they need smaller ones to get the ships that can fit inside the turret's massive turning radius.
     
    Joined
    Mar 2, 2014
    Messages
    1,293
    Reaction score
    230
    • Thinking Positive
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    May I remind you that reduced turn rate means turrets would be more likely to hit slower moving targets rather then faster moving ones, which would mean that will only work if fighters were faster then capital ships which currently they are not, meaning that if the turn rate was to be reduced then there would be no point building turrets at all because they would not be able to hit anything.
    With a mass-based reduction of turn rate small turrets would still be fast enough to target fighters. Ship speed doesn't matter much, since AI can lead its target. To avoid getting hit a fighter has to sidestep, for which acceleration is important, not max speed. Capital ships are always easier to hit due to their size, even when they are as fast as fighters.
     
    Joined
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages
    1,036
    Reaction score
    222
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    With a mass-based reduction of turn rate small turrets would still be fast enough to target fighters. Ship speed doesn't matter much, since AI can lead its target. To avoid getting hit a fighter has to sidestep, for which acceleration is important, not max speed. Capital ships are always easier to hit due to their size, even when they are as fast as fighters.

    Facepalm, don't you know that in starmade, capital ship HAVE instant acceleration.
     

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    Why add a needlessly complicated change to turret turn rates when simply reducing the cone of fire could solve the problem? Big turrets already turn slower, just make them unable to fire sideways from the output (and cover a 180° dome).
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    -ew, memes. snipped-
    don't you know that in starmade, capital ship HAVE instant acceleration.
    We're getting changes to thrusters, remember? You'll have to divide your thrust between forward, backwards, side to side, and up and down. Small ships that can turn fast can afford to have little stock in things besides forwards, as they can turn fast and easily go those directions with main engines. Large ships, since they take ages to turn, will need to put more engine power towards other directions if they want to be able to go a direction without spending ages to turn.

    Why add a needlessly complicated change to turret turn rates when simply reducing the cone of fire could solve the problem? Big turrets already turn slower, just make them unable to fire sideways from the output (and cover a 180° dome).
    Changing the cone of fire to something much smaller (10, 20, 30%) would solve some problems, but turrets still turn faster than ships of the same power weapons, as they only need to have shields, weapons, and a small AI and computer set up. I think the best solution would be to use the mass of the weapons of a turret to determine its turn speed, along side reduced cone of fire, because turrets being able to hit anything that is in the front half of a sphere around them is crazy.
     

    Keptick

    Building masochist
    Joined
    Sep 26, 2013
    Messages
    4,062
    Reaction score
    1,841
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    It's normal that a turret should turn faster than what it's mounted on :P Lecic
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    It's normal that a turret should turn faster than what it's mounted on :p Lecic
    A turret will turn faster than a ship with the same shields and weapons, because it will be much smaller, as it needs no engines, little or no interior, power, power tanks, ect. That's what I was saying.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    Joined
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages
    2,827
    Reaction score
    1,181
    • Video Genius
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Top Forum Contributor
    I think that npc ai (pirates) should have inaccuracy, but things controlled by an ingame computer ai (bobby ai) should be very accurate like before.