Add APBL Scoring - support for global bans

    nightrune

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    I like your ideas, if this were a centralized service, but that's not what is being proposed - so I'm confused by your reply.
    You'll have to expand on the confusion. A web service to me is an ephemeral thing. There could many instances or one. I could care less, and I think its better as a few services. Disconnected in this fashion would allow multiple trust sources you could verify against, and would likely, eventually converge to single service, but that's rarely a good idea in a security context. I just thought I'd put an idea out there on how else to implement it.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    You'll have to expand on the confusion. A web service to me is an ephemeral thing. There could many instances or one. I could care less, and I think its better as a few services. Disconnected in this fashion would allow multiple trust sources you could verify against, and would likely, eventually converge to single service, but that's rarely a good idea in a security context. I just thought I'd put an idea out there on how else to implement it.
    The original proposal is to provide a framework supporting effectively a peer-to-peer banlist, with responses weighted by server-specific trust values, and each connecting player scored by extent of bans (e.g. IGN, SMN, IP): each server operator must intentionally configure their instance to query other SM servers for ban status.

    My takeaway from your proposal was more of a centralized authoritative list, and that has some concerning issues, such as a strong abuse potential, and risks of spamming any sort of scoring system with "fake" servers purporting a ban. A peer-to-peer system circumvents these issues, by requiring that server owners/admins identify, vet and manually configure trust values for each server they wish to query ban status from.

    Regarding centralization, I agree that at some point this is a reasonable possibility. Although to a limit: more popular servers would most likely be looked-upon by "smaller" servers as a reputable source of ban status. After all, being a more active server would typically mean that your player population is more mature, stable, that server rules are well established and respected. Further, with the originally proposed system:
    • Any trust value is something for each server operator to decide upon.
    • Each server retains the ability to easily whitelist a player that shouldn't be banned on their server.
    • If a server shows patterns of abusive ban behaviors, then other server operators always retain the option of simply choosing to stop querying that particular server for player ban status; they would of-course continue querying other servers for status, and adjust scores/weighting as they see fit.
    • Responses from other servers would only persist for 1 hour (proposed), so in the event of a very popular server that suddenly goes abusive, there's no global permaban risk. This also helps complement a system where one player might be suspended on multiple servers; helping enforce a "cooling off period" for someone that needs to refine their social or anger management skills.
     
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    so what happens when someone gets wrongfully banned on one server? now they cant play starmade
     

    nightrune

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    so what happens when someone gets wrongfully banned on one server? now they cant play starmade
    No one said that, No one wants a massive crazy ban list. This is aimed at servers that Opt-In and would not affect your single player game play or servers that you might run with your friends.
    [doublepost=1468267783,1468267542][/doublepost]
    My takeaway from your proposal was more of a centralized authoritative list, and that has some concerning issues, such as a strong abuse potential, and risks of spamming any sort of scoring system with "fake" servers purporting a ban. A peer-to-peer system circumvents these issues, by requiring that server owners/admins identify, vet and manually configure trust values for each server they wish to query ban status from.
    I see the confusion now. I was musing about how the actual service would be built. There could be one or many of the service hosted in any number of places. I'll try to write up/diagram what I think the ideal would be in the grand scheme of things, and its not your exact system. It mostly involves being able to attach lua scripts to a server command as hooks. Allowing you to attach whatever you wanted.
     
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    On topic, I'm pretty sure this has been discussed and rejected by schine before. There are a lot of problems with the concept, namely that its all subjective. If server owners/moderators are able to assign APBL points by themselves what's stopping them from just assigning 1000 points to someone they don't like? You can claim schine oversight but I don't think anybody in Schine actually gives that much of a shit about what happens on servers. Also, what may be against the rules on one server (for example, relogging more than 10 times within a 24 hour period) may be widely accepted by most everyone else. I don't believe in anything resembling a global ban system for a game which has privately run servers. If Schine was running all of the servers it would be a different story. Your reference to Minecraft's server blacklist is an entirely different context and function. Those servers were blacklisted for offering cosmetics in exchange for money, in direct violation of the EULA. Nowhere in the starmade EULA does it say "don't be mean to people on our space game" or "don't take advantage of exploits or unfinished features".

    I agree that there needs to be more powerful admin tools in the game. However, that's entirely different from asking for a community-run blacklist. If server owners want to maintain this on their own as a third-party system that's different.
     

    Lukwan

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    While doing research on Griefing Vs PvP I came up with a sobering statistic. Blizzard reports that 25% of all customer service complaints for WoW were regarding griefing in game. Now imagine yourself responsible for the adjudication of that nightmare. Anyone want to volunteer to get embroiled in that kangaroo court for SM?
     

    Erth Paradine

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    While doing research on Griefing Vs PvP I came up with a sobering statistic. Blizzard reports that 25% of all customer service complaints for WoW were regarding griefing in game. Now imagine yourself responsible for the adjudication of that nightmare. Anyone want to volunteer to get embroiled in that kangaroo court for SM?
    Public server admins are already there, add a vocal minority that brands any admins/mods as "badmins" whenever someone disagrees with a server's rules (and enforcements thereof), or they stumble across an in-game bug that ruins their day...and it's a terrible combination. It's also yet another reason why a centralized list is NOT something I'd place high on my list of desired features. Keeping the list decentralized means that any banned players would be responsible for reaching out to the specific server admin for remedy (and/or whitelisting), and that the impacts of any abusive bans would very likely be both short-lived, and limited in scope. All while granting the far common non-abusive server mods/admins some basic built-in tools to automatically share ban information, and therefore put a quick stop on an abusive player's griefing tirade.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    ...
    5) Users (using their registry login) would slowly gain back karma in case they have learned their lesson and new servers arrive without them on a ban list.
    ...
    Been thinking about the karma element. Not sure how I feel about that from a decentralized perspective. On one hand, knowing how old a player's ban could be useful, but in my experience with the only players that we've had to permaban, those players have apparently been persistently abusive over the span of years. So perhaps they're not getting the message (that they need to stop being abusive), maybe it's just too easy to move onto another server and grief there once they've been permabanned, or perhaps maybe there's a ring of truth to a rumor about some of them; their only goal is to get people to quit the game (could you share any insights on your posting FlyingDebris ?).

    With that insight, I'm not sure a Karma system would really deter these types of abusive players, unless there's a way to track and score the number of recurring bans.
     
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    Erth Paradine

    Since your online and willing to respond to ZeroRa's little thing, why not give your explanation as to how a system of this nature would work when:

    1. Abusive admins exist
    2. You system has no safeguard against admins who are abusive
    3. Admins can ban anyone at any time for any reason, whenever they have done anything or not
    4. There is not set in stone guidelines for when you should ban a user (different admins will ban users for different reasons with different processes)
    As I have said, this is not CS:GO admins don't follow the same banning guidelines and rules gamewide, IF every single server in the entirety of StarMade has the same rules, and the same banning process then MAYBE this could work, but this is not the case.

    So, how will this system work with these points in mind?
    Please respond to this statement Erth Paradine, its not helping your case if you are avoiding a valid point.

    Also here are some counter statements to things you have said:

    If you're banned, you're banned. Do you have an idea for implementing a tiered ban system? If so, then we have something to discuss, otherwise I fail to see how you addressed my original response, and followup question:
    This completely addresses the original post, being banned on one server with rules that are different to another doesn't mean you should be banned on another server. "If you banned, your banned" is effective saying "If you are banned on any server, you are banned on every server"


    but in my experience with the only players that we've had to permaban, those players have apparently been persistently abusive over the span of years.
    their only goal is to get people to quit the game (could you share any insights on your posting FlyingDebris ?).
    And apparently we are the ones doing the smear campaign...

    This is completely false. Nuclear Doughnut hasn't abused period. 95% of every time someone screamed Zoro was abusing bugs was never proven to have occurred (except on your server) and Zoro has only been banned on 2 servers, Bitminery and Nasszone.

    FlyingDebris' request for Bobbybighoof to ban Zoro and co was mostly unproven "facts" combined with is hatred for zorozeenee at the time, RedAlert told me that he talked to Bobby on his teamspeak about this and told me he said something along the lines of "We will always give players a chance on our server regardless of what someone else said"

    Now can you please answer my perfectly valid question Erth Paradine, in case you cannot read the quote:

    Why not give your explanation as to how a system of this nature would work when:

    1. Abusive admins exist
    2. You system has no safeguard against admins who are abusive
    3. Admins can ban anyone at any time for any reason, whenever they have done anything or not
    4. There is not set in stone guidelines for when you should ban a user (different admins will ban users for different reasons with different processes)
    How will this work with these points in mind?
     

    Erth Paradine

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    Please respond to this statement Erth Paradine, its not helping your case if you are avoiding a valid point.
    ....
    I have already addressed your points in either my original writeup on this thread (please read more carefully), in followup postings, or your questions are inappropriate for this thread and its intended topic. If you have server-specific criticism, please take it to the appropriate board; that is not here.

    As for the topic of whether or not a user has abused, I respectively disagree, and again suggest that you carefully examine publicly published and very specific facts. AndyP is whom invested a couple of hours into confirming Zorozeenee's exploit, although I fail to see why knowing who is so critically important.

    As for Schine, we all know they don't disclose every fix they make, and they don't appear to disclose when exploits are fixed...ever...the ability to abuse via that exploit simply dissolves. In fact, if you examine their entire history of releases, I doubt you'll find many, if any, references to exploit patching.

    ...Why not give your explanation as to how a system of this nature would work when:...
    Again, these questions have already been addressed elsewhere in this thread, and this proposed system does in-fact suggest a number of safeguards. I encourage you to re-read more carefully, and then followup when you have something on-topic and constructive to contribute.
     
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    Erth Paradine

    You have not answered any of my questions, your system dumbs down every single ban to a number, regardless of what the ban was for, that in itself is proof enough your system has no safeguards.

    You have failed to address my points 1 through 4, point 4 in particular is what needs to be addresses. StarMade is not CS:GO, every person who controls bans in StarMade follows different rules and procedures and no 2 servers have the same set of rules.

    IF servers were 100% the same and all admins were 100% the same then maybe a system like this would work, but this is not like that.

    EDIT: So I talked to one server admin sometime ago, he said the system was a "lazy method of conducting blanket bans on people who have been banned from one server"

    I propose an alternative solution to your problem, if /ban wildcards are being implemented like you say, just block the IPs of a VPN service and ban a user by the IP should they do something wrong, then they cannot come back at all.

    Each server admin is his own, nobody should be forced to play a different game because they got banned from one server out of dozens.
     

    Nauvran

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    Please stop commenting in this thread, you are not contributing to the original discussion. Thank you.
    only reason I see for them to continue asking similar questions is because you're not doing a good enough job at explaining :P
     

    Erth Paradine

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    only reason I see for them to continue asking similar questions is because you're not doing a good enough job at explaining :p
    Fair enough. I've tried to be clear and concise with an initial suggestion, and in followups, but I am distilling info from multiple sources, throwing my own take on it, and perhaps I just need to think on this: rephrasing and clarifying the hotly contested points. With that said, I didn't post this as a be-all-to-end-all suggestion: its public because of a desire for intelligent and constructive input/feedback that's more useful than (paraphrasing) "...you need impossible XX to do that, otherwise it'll never work you lying lazy power-tripping badmin..."

    Damnit, I'm almost out of salt. Please excuse me while I make another power salt run. I do sincerely promise to return, once the buzz wears off.
     

    Lecic

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    Nope. This was a shitty idea for Minecraft, and it's a shitty idea here. I refuse to allow badmins to prematurely ban me from servers I've never visited and probably even have different rule sets.
     
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    Erth Paradine Maybe you should suggest global thread banning to make sure HeartUponSleeve doesn't post in this thread anymore.

    Let us not forget that this is an ALPHA game. Exploits are a common thing and you either accept it or don't, people will use them.

    If you really want to ban a lot of people from the server host community you have, make a google spreadsheet or something similar and put a chatbot on your server. Every time a line is added to the spreadsheet the chat bot will do the ban command with the given information. Share the document with others and there you go, your very own global ban system. (I am not responsible for any possible side-effects caused by the use of this method. Possible side-effects include: server hatred, abandonation of server and hate to server hoster)

    I do understand how you keep your server in shape with those rules, though. Especially the rule that you can only log in 10 times per 24 hours.
    Now, what causes lag on a server? Building, mining, being near a planet etc.
    What kind of players do those things the most? Active players.
    Who logs in the most? Active players.
    By banning active players you reduce the stress on the server! That is genius.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    Erth Paradine Maybe you should suggest global thread banning to make sure HeartUponSleeve doesn't post in this thread anymore.

    Let us not forget that this is an ALPHA game. Exploits are a common thing and you either accept it or don't, people will use them.

    If you really want to ban a lot of people from the server host community you have, make a google spreadsheet or something similar and put a chatbot on your server. Every time a line is added to the spreadsheet the chat bot will do the ban command with the given information. Share the document with others and there you go, your very own global ban system. (I am not responsible for any possible side-effects caused by the use of this method. Possible side-effects include: server hatred, abandonation of server and hate to server hoster)
    In what way does the existence of an exploit mandate that a player is forced to use it in abusive or harmful ways? Further, why should an abusive/harmful use of exploits be tolerated by server operators, or its community, especially when such usage is not only against most server's rules, but flys in the face of common decency? Further, why should operators/admins not have the ability to easily and quickly share, via automated means, information about players that have been so grossly abusive they were banned elsewhere? After all, of the nearly 3,000 players that have visited our server, we've had to ban a total of 30 (or less than 1%), all of them for grossly-abusive behaviors.

    A basic bot that just blindly adds players to a global permaban list is exactly what this suggestion seeks to avoid, as abuse would be rampant, and the system would quickly become useless; I just don't see the point.

    The original opt-in only suggestion was seeking to use the game's existing ban criteria, a means of sharing it, and a means of leveraging into a combined player karma and server trust metric: a way to define differing server trust levels, a time-limit to bans (so that abusive or wrongful bans are quickly removed), a basic per-IP and per-player rating/karma system, and most-importantly, a means for server operators to not just override, but also simply dismiss/ignore, any other server's specific bans. Is the possibility of karma really that scary?

    What's most amusing to me in this thread, is that out of this community's thousands of players, only those that either have a history of being banned elsewhere, and/or are closely aligned with those that have forced us to ban then, have voiced an objecting opinion.

    As for the (your?) continued butthurt over a single player's 24-hour suspension after relogging 27 times in a single day (effectively and obsessively relogging roughy every 15 minutes, for 12 hours, when you subtract time for sleep, eating, and personal hygiene), alongside that player's refusal to communicate with admins attempting to help them, that player's rumored history of using game exploits, and the existence of a known relogging exploit at the time. In addition to the facts that this player not only relogged more than any other player on our server (before, or since), that we only saw only 4 non-abusive relog patterns like that in the 6 months prior (out of the nearly 3,000 players that have visited our server), and the fact that our short-lived "max 10 relogs per 12 effective playing hours, 24 actual actual hours" rule isn't even in effect anymore....well, is an alpha game, *shrugs* :) LOL To be clear here, that player's permaban happened two weeks later, after they used exploits to break faction modules, I find it amusing that they've been banned off the dock for over a year too. *shrugs*
     
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    In what way does the existence of an exploit mandate that a player is forced to use it in abusive or harmful ways? Further, why should an abusive/harmful use of exploits be tolerated by server operators, or its community, especially when such usage is not only against most server's rules, but flys in the face of common decency? Further, why should operators/admins not have the ability to easily and quickly share, via automated means, information about players that have been so grossly abusive they were banned elsewhere? After all, of the nearly 3,000 players that have visited our server, we've had to ban a total of 30 (or less than 1%), all of them for grossly-abusive behaviors.
    By simply accepting exploits (as long as they don't cause server pain) means you don't need to watch out for exploiters. The other players will also use the exploit (since it wouldn't be illegal) making it fair ground as both use exploits. Note that I say it is a possibility.

    A basic bot that just blindly adds players to a global permaban list is exactly what this suggestion seeks to avoid, as abuse would be rampant, and the system would quickly become useless; I just don't see the point.

    The original opt-in only suggestion was seeking to use the game's existing ban criteria, a means of sharing it, and a means of leveraging into a combined player karma and server trust metric: a way to define differing server trust levels, a time-limit to bans (so that abusive or wrongful bans are quickly removed), a basic per-IP and per-player rating/karma system, and most-importantly, a means for server operators to not just override, but also simply dismiss/ignore, any other server's specific bans. Is the possibility of karma really that scary?
    This could still be done in spreadsheet or if someone has the time he/she can make a simple thing for it.
    You make a warning point system and when someone did something wrong you put that name into the spreadsheet together with the IP.
    You add the corresponding warning points and done. Everyone that has access to it can add or subtract warning points and then with a simple line like IF(warning points > 10) {some function that puts player name+IP in the chatbot list}
    There you go, a karma system that bans people worldwide if they gained a set amount of warning points. If you also want decaying warning points, add something that deletes the field after X amount of time.

    And yes, I am very afraid of these karma things because many people confuse EVIL with abuse/griefing/exploit. If you ban all those people you are left with a build server.
     

    Erth Paradine

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    By simply accepting exploits (as long as they don't cause server pain) means you don't need to watch out for exploiters. The other players will also use the exploit (since it wouldn't be illegal) making it fair ground as both use exploits. Note that I say it is a possibility.
    Who said server operators don't already permit some exploits? You haven't seen some of the really neat rotator block "bugs" have you? There's actually a way to make "round" ships, round thrusters or turrets for example, by exploiting a bug in the game's mechanics. Have you seen the "holodeck" stations being build from shipyards? These are examples of non-harmful exploits (e.g. a bug used in ways the original designer didn't intend), and I personally couldn't care less if players used them on our server. Haven't heard of the power injector, shield injector or armor bugs either, have you (although some of these walk a very thin line)? The underlying theme with ban-grade exploits is "harm" and most-importantly, rule-breaking behaviors. If you want to continue discussing specifics, I'll join you in the appropriate thread: Pirates VS Griefers

    This could still be done in spreadsheet or if someone has the time he/she can make a simple thing for it.
    You make a warning point system and when someone did something wrong you put that name into the spreadsheet together with the IP.
    You add the corresponding warning points and done. Everyone that has access to it can add or subtract warning points and then with a simple line like IF(warning points > 10) {some function that puts player name+IP in the chatbot list}
    There you go, a karma system that bans people worldwide if they gained a set amount of warning points. If you also want decaying warning points, add something that deletes the field after X amount of time.

    And yes, I am very afraid of these karma things because many people confuse EVIL with abuse/griefing/exploit. If you ban all those people you are left with a build server.
    I agree with warnings, which is why we hand out bans so rarely. Although when a self-professed former admin + bros joins a server, and then perpetrates dickheaded behaviors, then I fail to see why other (and especially newer) players AND admins shouldn't also have some awareness of such player's poor self-control, social and anger management skills, and therefore a means of swiftly kicking them to the curb...awareness via a reputable, built-in, and more globally accepted means of-course.

    Again though, I cannot agree with a global karma/ban system, especially one that isn't controlled at least to some extent by individual server operators. A flat/global system is too ripe for abuse by "fake" admins (e.g. short-lived and/or non-reputable servers). As I'd like the ability to say that I trust reports from, for example, SS at 1, GenX at 10, while completely dismissing ANY noise from EE2 "beta".

    As for the decay idea, I'm not saying I'm against it, but I'm still struggling to see it being effective, as such concepts did not work well with email servers and public blacklists over the past two decades; the very systems that inspired this original suggestion.
     
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    Valiant70

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    Two observations:
    1. There is a safeguard against abusive admins. Once other admins (a.k.a. YOUR admins) stop trusting them, their bans are ignored by the system and won't affect you.
    2. There is a way to account for different rules. Your server operator chooses to query servers with similar enough practices and rules. In any case, if someone broke rules you don't have, it still indicates a lack of respect for the law and order of a server, which means the person is a liability on your own server as well.
    This could be a useful tool for server operators who know and trust other server operators. Furthermore, if it were possible to query Starmade Dock, server operators who trust the dock staff enough could use dock bans as an easy way to filter out players who are likely toxic or troublesome.