A weapons logic question

[Jananton]

Hi All,

I was wondering if it's possible with logic blocks to catch the moment when a weapon computer starts regenerating after firing.
Lets explain my setup with two separate arrays of salvage beams with linked damage pulse cannons. These fire for 15 secs and then replenish for the same time. In my current setup one array is fired by logic and the other with the mouse as soon as the logic one starts regenerating. This obviously means one has to get out of the core or enter build mode to switch the logic one on first before starting salvaging and later off again when done.
It would be much, much better if after firing the one commanded by the mouse this would trigger to start the logic one when the mouse one stops to start the regeneration process, because after this initial start both would stay in sync.

Any ideas?

Greets,

Jan

 

[Crusade]

The only way I can think of is to have you logic-controlled array set up on a separate ship docked to the mothership, with the activation module hittable by the mothership's docking beam. Even then, I don't know if the docking beam will hit the docked ship.

Worth a shot?
[DOUBLEPOST=1420996549,1420996429][/DOUBLEPOST]Or, just having 2 separate PCs on your hotbar. Alternate between them yourself.

 

[Raelimar]

It's doable. I'm working on a frigate right now with an auto loop on 4 ion cannons. Fires 1 every half second and continues until I shut it off. Shouldnt be too hard to adapt for your salvage rig. Not at my computer right now, but I'll draw you a diagram and post it a little later.

 

[Jananton]

Well, I thought of making both salvage sets completely automatic, although a delay of 15 seconds will take quite a lot of blocks and room I don't really have. The downside of this approach is that you still need to switch it on when out of the core, since I haven't found a way to start a logic circuit from the command bar, in other words, from inside the core.

@Crusade: Maybe possible, but too complex for this relative small salvager/explorer ship. (l-40, w-27, h-11)

@Raelimar: Always interested in schematics for logic, my skills in this department are very average at most.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Raelimar]

Ah, didn't realize the ship was on the smaller side, the logic for this is about 20x4 if you compact it. Ah well, already finished and tested it. I just set my buildmode camera to facing the triggers before I leave dock. So I just need to switch to it real quick, flip the activators then switch back, takes all of 2 seconds. I find it helps to slap a display block between the 2 activators to label them so I don't hit the wrong one if I'm in a hurry (which for my ion cannons I am since I'm entering combat)

http://imgur.com/PBXwk7o

 

[Jananton]

Yup, that's what I do with the build mode camera as well at the moment.
Thanks for the schematic Raelimar I'll need to study that in depth tomorrow.
I noticed you use a lot delay blocks, I believe for longer delays, e.g. more then 10 seconds one can also use a construct with storage containers. There's a tutorial in episode 4 of this thread that could be of interest for you too.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Raelimar]

Cool, thanks. I'll have to look into that. I just threw that together real quick, my Auto Cannon only needs 4 delays. Using the containers I'm sure I could get the salvage array a lot smaller. Would just have to make sure the beam fires constant (that's why I have every 4th delay linked to salvage CPU).

 

[Panpiper]

I don't suppose there is any way using logic circuits to get for instance a damage beam to fire at the same time and in the same direction as my rapid fire cannon? Like; "if this block is active, send signal to activate that block"? What I would like to essentially to marry a virtually zero damage beam to my seriously powerful rapid fire cannon, so as to function like a laser designator. Right now I simply have no idea if I am on target.

 

[0ldSkull]

Panpiper you already have that in the form of the small circle that serves as your targeter/pointer; that indicates the precise direction in which your aimed weapon will fire. If you miss because you or your target is moving, you'll have to account for that; a laser sight won't help. Another problem is that if you could activate a beam at the same time, it would fire un-aimed and thus would not be useful for targeting.

Regarding the original post, is the system of two salvage+pulse arrays actually much better (faster) overall than using the same space for one larger array of salvage+cannon?

 

[Jananton]

... is the system of two salvage+pulse arrays actually much better (faster) overall than using the same space for one larger array of salvage+cannon?

Hmm, the jury is still out on that one. On paper it should, but in practice on a test run I can't say it felt much faster then my normal setup with salvage+cannon, but testing this out reliable isn't that easy. The 15 seconds on and 15 seconds off cycle doesn't make this setup easy to use either and the power consumption seems quite high too. Because of that cycle I use two salvage arrays with 16 banks of 8 modules each per array plus that number of pulse modules also split in two arrays.

To make a long story short I can only see how well this works when the ship is fully operational in the near future and out in the field so to speak. I know how long it took to take out an asteroid cluster completely before so I'll see. :D

Greets,

Jan

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Strange... salvage+damage pulse fired with logic will not fire for the full 15 seconds...

 

[Raelimar]

If you are just running a single salvage array, take a look at the diagram i posted earlier. Set a logic system like that up, but dont bother with all the delays. Just go as far as the and gate. Link the and gate to the salvage cpu and back to the trigger, it should set an infinite loop that will keep the salvage beam firing for the full 15 seconds. It will also start firing again when cooldown is up. I think logic is just coded to only trigger beams for a few seconds, not sure. If you give it another pulse before it stops though, it seems to reset whatever timer it is running in the background.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

If you are just running a single salvage array, take a look at the diagram i posted earlier. Set a logic system like that up, but dont bother with all the delays. Just go as far as the and gate. Link the and gate to the salvage cpu and back to the trigger, it should set an infinite loop that will keep the salvage beam firing for the full 15 seconds. It will also start firing again when cooldown is up. I think logic is just coded to only trigger beams for a few seconds, not sure. If you give it another pulse before it stops though, it seems to reset whatever timer it is running in the background.

I figured it out, it needs a clocked input to fire

• activator -> AND -> NOT -> Delay
  
  ^___________v​

Here's my final design

It's a simple clock that is 15seconds high, 15 seconds low. When the timer is high a clock blinks and when it is low a second clock blinks. These clocks are wired to the salvage computers.

 

[Jananton]

Nice, sadly there won't be any space left for the crew to switch it on. :D
All kidding aside, it's a pity it isn't possible (yet) to read the state of a weapon module, high when firing, low when idle, because that would very much simplify the process and also overcome the core hopping that's necessary at the moment.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Nice, sadly there won't be any space left for the crew to switch it on. :D
All kidding aside, it's a pity it isn't possible (yet) to read the state of a weapon module, high when firing, low when idle, because that would very much simplify the process and also overcome the core hopping that's necessary at the moment.

Greets,

Jan

Yeah I would love to have the ability to make weapons that fire bursts out of multiple barrels.

 

[Raelimar]

I figured it out, it needs a clocked input to fire

• activator -> AND -> NOT -> Delay
  
  ^___________v​

Here's my final design

It's a simple clock that is 15seconds high, 15 seconds low. When the timer is high a clock blinks and when it is low a second clock blinks. These clocks are wired to the salvage computers.

Nice, I was thinking something along those lines if I revisited it. I,ve skimmed over a few tutorials but I like tinkering. Might see if I can figure it out next time I can play.

 

[Panpiper]

...is the system of two salvage+pulse arrays actually much better (faster) overall than using the same space for one larger array of salvage+cannon?

FunnyBunny14 did a lot of hand holding for me when I first showed up here, very much the newb. (I'm still a newb, but starting to get a handle on things.) One of the things he impressed upon me was the use of salvage/pulse instead of salvage/cannon. I was initially leery due to the high recycle time, the thought of having two sets of beams coming from different directions to compensate for that, the extra mass of the system especially for my penchant for making my salvage ship a permacloaker, etc.. Once I realized I could get those two beams to originate from the same centerpoint (again due to help from FunnyBunny14), that was enough for me to build the system to find out for myself.

Due to my putting it on a permacloak where extra mass is problematic, I made the array less wide than I made my old salvage/cannon array. The higher energy cost was not an issue given that my ship is designed for high energy to support cloaking, which cannot be used while salvaging, so I had the energy to spare. I have two different salvage arrays nested inside one another, that to an eye unaware of how it's done, just looks like one huge salvage beam block, the damage pulse blocks are elsewhere.

I cannot give precise numbers, but the smaller salvage/pulse array eats asteroids much more satisfyingly than did my old, larger salvage/cannon arrays. Note too that it is not necessarily the case that salvage/pulse is more massive than salvage/cannon. My old array including both salvage and cannon blocks worked out to 1620 blocks for a 9x9 array, salvage blocks ten blocks deep. My new salvage/pulse double/nested array is 7x7 with the salvage clocks only eight deep which works out to a total block mass, including damage pulse blocks of only 1568.

Having now used both, I will never go back to salvage/cannon. The mining does go faster, and it 'feels' much more satisfying, as the beam actually eats what it hits as opposed to eroding it. The downside is the energy cost, but generating sufficient energy is not that big a hurtle if you understand how the power systems work (thanks FunnyBunny14).

By the way, I don't use logic to handle the two beams. (I wouldn't have a clue as to how.) I just have two beams on my hotbar and as soon as one expires, I click the other. My right hand controls the beam direction with my mouse and my left hand has nothing else to do but hover over the number keys waiting to hit the next beam.

 

[Jananton]

...I have two different salvage arrays nested inside one another, that to an eye unaware of how it's done, just looks like one huge salvage beam block, the damage pulse blocks are elsewhere....

...By the way, I don't use logic to handle the two beams. (I wouldn't have a clue as to how.) I just have two beams on my hotbar and as soon as one expires, I click the other. My right hand controls the beam direction with my mouse and my left hand has nothing else to do but hover over the number keys waiting to hit the next beam.

My idea to try the salvage+pulse combo was after reading some threads from FunnyBunny14 too. However, being a single-player person I do set some additional conditions for playing and for building ships. The first one is to play legit, so everything should be either crafted or bought and all ships, apart from the very first one, should have some kind of inner space for the pilot to at least enter the vessel. In other words the core isn't enterable from the outside.

The second ship in my current world with four salvage+cannon beams, where most raw materials for the current one this thead is about where harvested with, Harvester Mk1, looks like this:

Although quite low on power, a little under 10000 e/sec, it has a jump drive, a radar-jammer - never leave home without it -, a scanner and two heatseeker tubes to give nasties something to do before jumping away if needed.

The current one that's under way being build at the moment is about twice the size (l-40, w-27, h-11) as mentioned earlier and is designed following the same theme as the Harvester, but as a test its equipped with 2 salvage-pulse arrays interlaced in a checkerboard pattern. It's a salvager/explorer vehicle of type Salvager Mk 2 and will be named Abel Tasman.

I managed to get the power up to just under 90000 e/sec and has batteries up to 200000. It has the same equipment as the harvester and additionally has 50% overdrive to make a run for it when jumping into trouble.
It has a large core room, a cargo cellar at the back and two small cabins at either side for the operator(s). The picture is obviously during the construction phase, color accents, armor plating and what else will be added later still.

Obviously no nested setup here, I actually didn't think of that. Maybe something for a next asymmetrical hull design in the future after harvesting a lot with this one. :D

Greets,

Jan

 

[Panpiper]

The current one...

My goodness, a ship that actually looks like a ship! Mine tend to look like spare parts bolted onto a latticework of power conduits. Unless I'm building a Borg cube. My Borg cubes are beautiful. ;-)

 

[Jananton]

As far as I can remember a cubist ship I build once following an example from an old instruction video on the StarMade home page. It was a frustrating experience where many block types used were marked obsolete and unavailable when I tried to buy them...
Ah, the wonders of alpha development.

Greets,

Jan