A Radicaly New Approach for Viable Planets:

    jayman38

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    I love it, but in practical terms how do we allow weapons to lock onto a ship that is a million sectors away?

    At first glance I fear we would need a special PTS block or AI setting that would literally set the entity's weapon output (and computer location for target acquisition purposes) as being the center of the planet toon and just shooting right from there with essentially a decorative effect happening on the planet.
    [doublepost=1515611475][/doublepost]LOL - can you imagine the solid stream of DPS pouring out of a planet equipped with a dozen, scattered heavy PTS weapons (v. large capital turret sized)???
    For such a tactical map, I envision the map being limited to the local "neighborhood". The range of the map might be based on weapon ranges, but it would be a lot more interesting if the tactical map range was based on a planet-based scanner system.

    Planetary defense systems would be very hard to overcome, and stealth bombers might be the only things that can attack a planet in that case.

    Another balancing factor that might keep planetary defenses from being overpowered might be random scatter. Large ships need to stay away, but smaller ships can risk getting into range if planetary weapon outputs are not pinpoint-accurate. Scatter won't matter for homing missiles, but the invading force's antimissile effects would be the counter to those. (Primarily, I'm focused on AMS turrets, but I'd still like to see jammers have a chance to turn homing missiles into dumb-fire missiles that can be evaded, or that simply wander off on a random vector.)
     
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    Hopefully they can see that this idea has no more of a transition than activating your warp drive. Your ship doesn't actually travel the distance when jumping, it teleports and the jump animation is the trick they use to hide this. I don't se how the op would be any different.



    Orbital bombardment might be difficult for the game to get right through a transition but the scanner could aid in that by displaying ground targets through an overlay or something allowing you to lock on.
    Well put!
    Do you mind If I add that to the op to clear up any confusion?

    I have no idea how bombardment could work, at least how I imagined it would be the larger ships could blockade around the planet to prevent anything from leaving (No Warp Jump when near a planet due to gravatational interferance maybe?), while the atmospheric capable craft desended to fight it out above the planets surface.
    [doublepost=1515632782,1515632273][/doublepost]
    Should entities passing through the wormhole heading towards the planet be subject to a wave of re-entry damage (like sunburn)?

    This would not only be realistic, but could help discourage abuse of drones not properly designed as re-entry vehicles with shields to protect them from the heat.
    So part of the atmosphere could be like a tonned down version of inside a star :? (With damage randomly applied, hitting the shields first:?)
    Only issue could be that small craft would just burn up (e.g every new player ever XD)
     
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    So part of the atmosphere could be like a tonned down version of inside a star :? (With damage randomly applied, hitting the shields first:?)
    Only issue could be that small craft would just burn up (e.g every new player ever XD)
    Just a one-time damage on first entering the atmosphere through the wormhole, not an area of permanent re-entry fire. Just enough to demand aero-space vehicles employ a shield or take the hit, and add a touch of "atmosphere" to gameplay.
     
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    I think something like this is great. Even if orbital bombardment were not possible this would still be great as long as there was some kind of config alterable mass limit preventing large ships above a certain size. A new place for people to fight and survive on a small scale while sharing the universe would be perfect. This would make planets highly valuable places. I think it would be more interesting too if you could only claim and homebase one hex on the surface if you chose, rather than the whole planet.
     
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    I think something like this is great. Even if orbital bombardment were not possible this would still be great as long as there was some kind of config alterable mass limit preventing large ships above a certain size. A new place for people to fight and survive on a small scale while sharing the universe would be perfect. This would make planets highly valuable places. I think it would be more interesting too if you could only claim and homebase one hex on the surface if you chose, rather than the whole planet.
    Great idea! I think that's how planet planets/hexs currently work.

    Thus you can claim hexs/territory one plate at a time using a faction moduals, or finding the enemy one.
    I think to make it fairer, the homebase would count all joined hexes under your control as part of your homebase (up to a limit so they don't grab the whole planet, config option?)

    Currently homebase stations can be any size, this just one hex for a homebase might be too small.
     
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    How would you handle having two factions homebased on the same planet if they go to war, then? If they can extend their homebase protection by claiming more hexes, one faction could box the other in and surround it with unkillable anti-astronaut turrets to make life hell for them.
    Whether a homebase would have enough room in a hex depends on the size of the hex. Realistically there's actually not a heck of a lot that you need in a homebase right now, and you can always build upward... but eh. In this case I think we should either only allow one homebase per planet even if hexes are claimed by multiple factions, or restrict homebase protection to one hex and allow others to be claimed as normal.
     
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    Valiant70

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    The full explanation is kind of hard to communicate, but there will always be issues mapping a bunch of square voxels onto a sphere. This is due to laws of mathematics and geometry, and cannot be overcome by clever programming. You must always make some tradeoff, either by sacrificing the continuous voxel map and making sections that don't line up with each other (e.g. dodecaplanets) or sacrifice the sphere in order to have a seamless grid of voxels.
     
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    The full explanation is kind of hard to communicate, but there will always be issues mapping a bunch of square voxels onto a sphere. This is due to laws of mathematics and geometry, and cannot be overcome by clever programming. You must always make some tradeoff, either by sacrificing the continuous voxel map and making sections that don't line up with each other (e.g. dodecaplanets) or sacrifice the sphere in order to have a seamless grid of voxels.
    This is the kind of thinking that got us into this mess... instanced planets with transitions gives us a pass on many of these issues because it changes how mapping can be viewed, especially from an immersion standpoint. We can use square mapping even though it isn't exact, it doesn't actually matter. Use Mercator mapping to map this:


    onto a sphere like this visually



    The world generated is completely square, but the backwards Mercator maps to the sphere display. You can consistently figure out where you will land, what will hit where, and have convincing views of the planet from a distance and still be able to understand the topology with out actually having to load into the instance. The Mercator sphere projection could even be updated periodically given sufficient changes to the planets surface or something. Things will be warped, but you won't notice it because of the instance transition. Use pacman wrapping for all angles with surface movement.

    The nice thing about this solution is that it could be implemented *today* and we know how to do it.

    1: use perlin noise to generate the square hieght map, biomes, ores and caves for a square map (with depth) representing the planets surface, Theoretically the game already uses perlin/simplex noise.

    2: Generate UV maps of texture surface yourself, or cheat and use Blender to do it for you before hand. The texture changes but the UV maps don't.


    3: Sample surface of generated planet for the resolution of the texture you want to use as the UV texture, use the top most filled in block for the block color of the texture (so if your planet generated terrain is 65536 x 65536 pixels, but your texture is 1024 x 1024, sample every 64th x and y coordinate at the max z level where a block exists to get the color for that spot, or use an average of all colors in that area for more accurate results). This is then saved as the planets texture.

    4: to land and leave the planet (and potentially to also manually sample surface) use the equations provided here Mercator Projection -- from Wolfram MathWorld to map incoming latitude and longitude to rectangular Mercator coordinate on the actual planet surface. These equations biol down to:

    given y axis longitude = lng_0;
    current longitude = lng;
    and current latitude = lat;
    x = lng - lng_0;
    y = ln(tan(lat) + sec(lat));


    lat = 2 * arctan(e ^ y) - (1/2)*pi;
    lng = x + lng_0;​

    So you can figure out from this where you'll end up and where you will be on the planet given an outgoing x y, and incoming lat lng.

    5: To optionally have updated planet visuals from space, record changes per chunk (of generated planet surface), keep track of top level blocks on each chunk to figure out new color, chunks can then update the texture when large enough changes happen.

    The biggest issue I see with this is that very large structures will appear warped on with this method from space. If planets are big enough this won't even be an issue since you could never discern that much any way. Continents and major land features will also, but you wouldn't be able to tell from the ground because you are up close to them. This applies to very large man made structures some what, but if you make a square it won't look like a square from space, the regular-ness of the structure will give the warping away.

    The biggest advantages of this are its simplicity, the solved ability to correspond space actions with ground actions and vice versa, and the update-ability of the planets surface changes.
     
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    Would missle weapons pass through the transition somehow for orbital bombardments, or would warhead-based ordnance finally become a necessity for something??

    Would destroying entire planets still be possible, or would that be done with?
    they could make it so they cant pass through, and the in game reasoning could be that they burn up in atmosphere :D
    [doublepost=1516009013,1516008906][/doublepost]
    How would you handle having two factions homebased on the same planet if they go to war, then? If they can extend their homebase protection by claiming more hexes, one faction could box the other in and surround it with unkillable anti-astronaut turrets to make life hell for them.
    Whether a homebase would have enough room in a hex depends on the size of the hex. Realistically there's actually not a heck of a lot that you need in a homebase right now, and you can always build upward... but eh. In this case I think we should either only allow one homebase per planet even if hexes are claimed by multiple factions, or restrict homebase protection to one hex and allow others to be claimed as normal.
    could make it so that you cant build x amount of blocks in a certain direction (eg sideways) outside the hexes
     
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    Matt_Bradock

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    they could make it so they cant pass through, and the in game reasoning could be that they burn up in atmosphere :D
    Yea... beams would be dispersed by the ionosphere, cannons and missiles would simply burn up on entry. Warhead torpedoes tho, since they are technically ships... :P

    And too large ships would get a warning that the gravitational pull would compromise structural integrity and break the ship apart.
     
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    The_Owl

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    Thrust to mass, aka the ability to get on and off the planet, should be the only limit for planets.

    I want my giant landers dammit
     
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    Giant dropships would be cool... but should probably not be bigger than one planetary plate. Dead max.
     
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    The_Owl

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    Giant dropships would be cool... but should probably not be bigger than one planetary plate. Dead max.
    If i can't land an armored battalion on a planet in one lander the planet isn't big enough.
     

    Ithirahad

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    If i can't land an armored battalion on a planet in one lander the planet isn't big enough.
    You mean, the server hasn't been slowed down enough?

    Yes, planets should be large enough to 'fit' these things, but there's no reason they should actually be allowed.
     
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    If i can't land an armored battalion on a planet in one lander the planet isn't big enough.
    Sure, but that is an issue of server settings. I'm pretty confident that either one plate or even 1/2 a plate is a sufficient limit on what can safely enter the atmosphere. To make that bigger, change server settings to make plates bigger? Or allow the limit to be a server setting. Either way, the ability to limit it is a must.

    EDIT: typo
     
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    The_Owl

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    Sure, but that is an issue of server settings. I'm pretty confident that either one playe or even 1/2 a plate is a sufficient limit on what can safely enter the atmosphere. To make that bigger, change server settings to make plates bigger? Or allow the limit to be a server setting. Either way, the ability to limit it is a must.
    If there is theoreticaly no limit to the size of something entering an irl atmosphere then why is it a limit in starmade? Once you reach a size limit you start removing the ability for players to be creative. no matter where you put a limit someone will be irritated. I'd rather not have a notification popping up saying "You are 10.3 mass to heavy to enter this atmosphere!", forcing players to remove detail just to access a function.
     
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    If there is theoreticaly no limit to the size of something entering an irl atmosphere then why is it a limit in starmade? Once you reach a size limit you start removing the ability for players to be creative. no matter where you put a limit someone will be irritated. I'd rather not have a notification popping up saying "You are 10.3 mass to heavy to enter this atmosphere!", forcing players to remove detail just to access a function.
    You are so right.

    The game should totally allow people to maliciously crash multiplayer servers at will - and there should be absolutely NO OPTION for servads to control this in the settings!!

    Because IRL a rogue planet could come crashing through our atmosphere at any second.

    That would totally make the OP suggestion way, waaay more fun and functional than current planets.
     
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    If there is theoreticaly no limit to the size of something entering an irl atmosphere then why is it a limit in starmade? Once you reach a size limit you start removing the ability for players to be creative. no matter where you put a limit someone will be irritated. I'd rather not have a notification popping up saying "You are 10.3 mass to heavy to enter this atmosphere!", forcing players to remove detail just to access a function.
    Yeah, but that all goes back to the reason we have such issues with lag in the first place, which is devs not wanting limits due to idealism. While the promise of "the ultimate, unbound" whatever is a good driving force for development, some compromises must be made to make things playable. This is where configs for server owners are an absolute must, otherwise people's "creativity" becomes a burden to everyone else. In this potential planet setup, it would be nice to not give vessels above a certain mass, blockcount or dimensions the ability to get inside these seperate planet zones. It could be argued that having an atmosphere entry limit would enable the creation of small craft to exist and thrive where they otherwise wouldn't. Now of course the best possible option would be more subtle "laws of nature" type limitations but we are a long way from that and interim solutions immediately available to servers are desperately needed.
     
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