A Manifesto on the Relationship Between Fighters, Titans and AI

[Izikiel]

Exactly. You'd be live bait in a school of piranhas.

Or a diver without a cage in a bay of sharks - assuming you could even get back to the ship core after a respawn.

Actually, that sounds awesome. I could just imagine everyone scrambling for some intact craft to escape in as the massive ship is destroyed around them. All we need now is a revamp of the ship health system (based on core, health, or whatever else that might be chosen), and it would be an incredible experience, based on my totally biased opinion.

 

[Mered4]

Actually, in my honest opinion, that sounds awesome. I could just imagine everyone scrambling for some intact craft to escape in as the massive ship is destroyed around them. All we need now is a revamp of the ship health system (based on core, health, or whatever else that might be chosen), and it would be an incredible experience, based on my totally biased opinion.

Oh, absolutely! I think it would be extremely difficult to exploit having undeathinators on ships (unless, ofc, it was a cloaked ship....but that's another idea entirely). Once the health system is in (preventing core destruction until ~50% of the ship is destroyed, for example), we can get down to recreating Star Wars Battlefront II's epic space battles. DO WANT.

 

[Izikiel]

Oh, absolutely! I think it would be extremely difficult to exploit having undeathinators on ships (unless, ofc, it was a cloaked ship....but that's another idea entirely). Once the health system is in (preventing core destruction until ~50% of the ship is destroyed, for example), we can get down to recreating Star Wars Battlefront II's epic space battles. DO WANT.

I remember having many fun battles in that game.

 

[Snk]

I imagine that the ship undeathinator would be destroyed anyways. If it's not then the player will be spawning in a wrecked ship with no shields beside a hostile ship that will most likely kill the player again.

Actually, if be pretty interesting to keep the undeathinators but not allow them to enter the core so you could board it.

 

[3ch0]

Actually, if be pretty interesting to keep the undeathinators but not allow them to enter the core so you could board it.

Then why not remove the ability to enter the core in other than build mode. Force the player to enter the cockpit to fly instead. So when all the cockpit are destroyed you can't fly. That way the core will be what it supposed to be, a core. Could also remove the ability to stop the overheating by entering it and force the player to repair it to 25% to stop the countdown.

You in the pilot seat, it's destroyed, you re-spawn at the undethinator in the crew quarter, you go to the copilot seat you get blown to bits again, you re-spawn, the only thing left is a bomber, you take it, die again. During the fight the carrier ship core is hit and the countdown start. You don't have what it takes to make repairs. you jump in the escape shuttle and watch you dear ship blow in the distance......The End:D

 

[Snk]

Good idea. I've never really liked controlling from the core

 

[3ch0]

Good idea. I've never really liked controlling from the core

Aye, controlling a ship from the core is like driving a car inside the engine :D.

Personally and until you can fly from the cockpit I put my core on the bridge of my ship.

 

[Invadr]

On the Tectum Clemetia server, we have a lot of the big ship v. small ship balance being worked out through a series of economic and structural restrictions. It's a work in progress based on the very new crafting system, but it's the closest I've seen. The only thing we need from the development standpoint is the ability to control the AI fighters, which may be some time before implemented. A lot of work has been put into the balance of ship drive efficiency which gives smaller ships a much better tactical advantage over smaller ships by reducing the effectiveness of very large engines. We also have a reduced effect put on shields. It's a difficult balance that is in-progress, but does show a lot of this conversation can be worked out using the Config options.

Lag will always be an issue for online games as you get to extremes as well (i.e. 1 km ships vs. 500 fighters) and the advantage will go to the AI the larger the engagement. Which makes the necessity for control of multiple AI's even more important if fighters are to have an effective place in the game.

Yetimania really hit the nail on the head tho. Excellent post.

 

[Genjator]

I like a lot of what I've heard on here, some great ideas. A balance between all the ship sizes would be awesome, since otherwise, why make the small ones? Course, I wonder how long it would take to actually do all this?

 

[Mered4]

On the Tectum Clemetia server, we have a lot of the big ship v. small ship balance being worked out through a series of economic and structural restrictions. It's a work in progress based on the very new crafting system, but it's the closest I've seen. The only thing we need from the development standpoint is the ability to control the AI fighters, which may be some time before implemented. A lot of work has been put into the balance of ship drive efficiency which gives smaller ships a much better tactical advantage over smaller ships by reducing the effectiveness of very large engines. We also have a reduced effect put on shields. It's a difficult balance that is in-progress, but does show a lot of this conversation can be worked out using the Config options.

Lag will always be an issue for online games as you get to extremes as well (i.e. 1 km ships vs. 500 fighters) and the advantage will go to the AI the larger the engagement. Which makes the necessity for control of multiple AI's even more important if fighters are to have an effective place in the game.

Yetimania really hit the nail on the head tho. Excellent post.

Why did you guys go with a shield reduction for larger ships?? I'd think you would want slower, tankier behemoths instead of slower, not-so-tanky behemoths.

I can understand giving Shield Rechargers a reduced rate (obvious reason is obvious)....but shields?

 

[Invadr]

Shields/rechargers are less effective across the board-for ALL ships. The slower, tankiness comes from having a lot more armor and mass. The shields help to a point but with a slow regen and a higher cost at some point you get diminishing returns. The higher cost per shield block is critical. The overall cost of the ship determines how many crew bunks and amenities you need, which further increases the cost and size. So careful consideration needs to be given to everything that adds expense.

Plus the emphasis is on RP not giant dreadnaught fights. Success on TC does not necessarily come from having the biggest ship.

 

[Johnathan Dahmnation]

Shields/rechargers are less effective across the board-for ALL ships. The slower, tankiness comes from having a lot more armor and mass. The shields help to a point but with a slow regen and a higher cost at some point you get diminishing returns. The higher cost per shield block is critical. The overall cost of the ship determines how many crew bunks and amenities you need, which further increases the cost and size. So careful consideration needs to be given to everything that adds expense.

Plus the emphasis is on RP not giant dreadnaught fights. Success on TC does not necessarily come from having the biggest ship.

That seems an odd way to balance, adding crew space for cost.

 

[3ch0]

That seems an odd way to balance, adding crew space for cost.

Not a all if you are playing in a role play environment. The ship emphasis is realism, henceforth a detailed interior. As an example if you have a complement of 40 crew-members then you must provide for 40 crew hence 40 bunk-bed, enough space in the mess-hall and operation station to justify the need of this numbers of crew members.

what I like to do is categorize the crew. What the ship needs.
Command Element ( commanding officers for each department)
Tactical (space battle)
Security (internal security)
Operation (cargo, hangar, general every day operation)
Engineering (Maintenance, engine monitoring and repairs)
Medical ( no need to elaborate)
Science ( sensors monitoring, R&D)

You need to keep all that in mind when you're in a Role Play environment

 

[Invadr]

All of those are good ideas. I think a balance is struck between realism and gameplay practicality at some point. If realism becomes overburdensome then only a few people will want to play.

At the risk of highjacking this excellent thread, I would just like to say that modification of the Config file can go a long way towards balancing the large v. small ship argument. However, Yetimania's original post is awesome at honing in on the need for AI control of fighter fleets to really round out the mixed fleet battles. I am really looking forward to that solution.

 

[Johnathan Dahmnation]

Not a all if you are playing in a role play environment. The ship emphasis is realism, henceforth a detailed interior. As an example if you have a complement of 40 crew-members then you must provide for 40 crew hence 40 bunk-bed, enough space in the mess-hall and operation station to justify the need of this numbers of crew members.

what I like to do is categorize the crew. What the ship needs.
Command Element ( commanding officers for each department)
Tactical (space battle)
Security (internal security)
Operation (cargo, hangar, general every day operation)
Engineering (Maintenance, engine monitoring and repairs)
Medical ( no need to elaborate)
Science ( sensors monitoring, R&D)

You need to keep all that in mind when you're in a Role Play environment

To be honest I never considered the idea that "crews" and RP HAD to go hand in hand. I mean, I look at the tech as designed in SM and "RP" with it as is. Brave new future and all in which a single person interfaces with the core of a ship directly. There is no crew or crew space, not because I'm not in RP mode, but because this is the future, automation is king, and redundant fleshies are... well... redundant.

 

[3ch0]

To be honest I never considered the idea that "crews" and RP HAD to go hand in hand. I mean, I look at the tech as designed in SM and "RP" with it as is. Brave new future and all in which a single person interfaces with the core of a ship directly. There is no crew or crew space, not because I'm not in RP mode, but because this is the future, automation is king, and redundant fleshies are... well... redundant.

Well, logic block can be used to create crew stations as well as turret also I use logic block and plexlight to simulate technical situation monitor.
(Example: if the engine 4 activation blocks are destroyed then you see a blinking red light on the ship reduced model on the bridge.)
I just think a crew even a AI crew is more immersive, at least for RP purpose, then having a large ship with a single person on board.
also even if a ship is fully automated you need some crew to monitor and do the decision making, again that is if you RP it.

Even a single crewmen will need space, bed, hangar, etc.

Also you won't defend your ship against enemy boarding with no crew.

A ship with no crew is like being alone in a tin-can whit lasers:D.

:D Healthy debate I like that :D

 

[Johnathan Dahmnation]

Well, logic block can be used to create crew stations as well as turret also I use logic block and plexlight to simulate technical situation monitor.
(Example: if the engine 4 activation blocks are destroyed then you see a blinking red light on the ship reduced model on the bridge.)
I just think a crew even a AI crew is more immersive, at least for RP purpose, then having a large ship with a single person on board.
also even if a ship is fully automated you need some crew to monitor and do the decision making, again that is if you RP it.

Even a single crewmen will need space, bed, hangar, etc.

Also you won't defend your ship against enemy boarding with no crew.

A ship with no crew is like being alone in a tin-can whit lasers:D.

:D Healthy debate I like that :D

To each their own I suppose. I find it less imersive personally to shoehorn the idea of a crew into a game that quite frankly doesn't functionally support it. Even RP-wise, you are somehow interfacing with the core of a ship, and controlling it much like your own astronaut's body. The idea of not receiving the same feedback a crew would relay faster and more accurately in such a situation seems really weird to me. With the idea of a system to sustain the pilot now you not only have a 1 man ship, but a bridge, sleeping area, mess hall and restroom all in one (Don't worry, inserting the tubes gets less uncomfortable as you do it more often. Mind bending them too much though, blockages range from messy to deadly.).

Being alone in a tin can becomes less of an issue as well as you are the tin can and while some people might be into having dozens of people inside them all at once, others may not be so inclined.

 

[Apostolos]

I am new around here and have been perusing the forums. I think Starmade is pretty cool although have not spent a lot of time yet with it. However, with just a couple days worth of playing and watching some tutorial videos I think a lot of the points brought up in the OP are very legitimate.

#1 The first thing I noticed right off the bat was how easy it was to get started making something kinda big. There really seems to be a decided lack of 'barrier to entry' with regards to making something big and beefy.

#2 As to the discussion of large vs small ships:

The first thing that came to my mind was the correlation between speed and maneuverability with regards to different weapon systems. Having dumb fire missiles be smaller in size, moderately harder to hit with point defense systems, but have a MUCH greater damage to cost ratio would make them perfect weapons to use vs. large capitol ships. Smaller ships would be a lot more difficult to hit as they could turn, speed up etc..

Capitol ship weapons could also be effected by this. Take a beam weapon with say 100 blocks plus the accompanying 100 blocks to make it have a longer range + the 100 blocks making it do extra shield damage (whatever the combo would be) giving a capitol ship one single weapon having 300 blocks of weapon points. Have those larger weapons require a certain speed maximum before they are even capable of firing (like speed 5 as max) That is one limitation.. firing arcs would be another. (think broadside although I am not sure how that would be programmed) Turning a large titan to bring its big guns to bear on a cruiser as the cruiser tries desperately to get out of the way etc.. Pulse weapons slow their rate of fire the faster you travel.. whatever. The next would be ammunition for missile systems. With limited ammo (say 2 missiles per box of ammo which had a fairly high weight per box) a smaller bomber type craft would be required to go back and dock with the carrier to rearm its anti-capitol ship weapons after firing off its load of 4 or 6 missiles. Just some ideas to use with regard to balancing everything.

 

[ToyotaSupra]

Over 32 likes AND a sticky?

Is it possible to get the 'forum contributor' badge from a single post?

(And of course, very agreeable post.)

 

[DukeofRealms]