A discussion on economy: By the numbers!

[Unnamed25]

A lot of games get around the problem of small ships being worthless against capital ships by making large individual weapons inefficient power-wise

Then we start making checkerboard pattern cannons/beams because they are more efficient and can do more overall block damage

 

[MrFURB]

Alrighty folks, here's the numbers revised for the new update:

Mining bonus for other faction territory = 6
Mining bonus for own faction territory = 12

Ore/shards per asteroid = 338
Capsules per asteroid = 1,690

Asteroids per sector = 5.1

Raw resources per asteroid sector = 1,723.8
Capsules per asteroid sector = 8,619

Raw resources per other faction sector = 10,342.8
Capsules per other faction sector = 51,714

Raw resources per own faction sector = 20,685.6
Capsules per own faction sector = 103,428

Average asteroid sectors per ring= 80

Raw resources per ring = 137,904
Capsules per ring = 689,520

Raw resources per other faction ring = 827,424
Capsules per other faction ring = 4,137,120

Raw resources per own faction ring = 1,654,848
Capsules per own faction ring = 8,274,240

Average asteroid rings per star system = 2.72

Raw resources per system = 375,098.88
Capsules per system = 1,875,494.4

Raw resources per other faction system = 2,250,593.28
Capsules per other faction system = 11,252,966.4

Raw resources per own faction system = 4,501,186.56
Capsules per own faction system = 22,505,932.8

Capsules per standard armor = 6
Standard armor per asteroid = 281.66
Standard armor per sector = 1,436.5
Standard armor per system = 312,582.4

Capsules per utility module = 25
Utility modules per asteroid = 67.6
Utility modules per sector = 344.76
Utility modules per system = 75,019.77

Capsules per weapon module = 50
Weapon modules per asteroid = 33.8
Weapon modules per sector = 172.38
Weapon modules per system = 37,509.88

Capsules per advanced armor = 66
Advanced armor per asteroid = 25.6
Advanced armor per sector = 130.59
Advanced armor per system = 28,416.58

Capsules per effect module = 75
Effect modules per asteroid = 22.53
Effect modules per sector = 114.92
Effect modules per system = 25,006.59

Capsules per shield module = 100
Shield modules per asteroid = 16.9
Shield modules per sector = 86.19
Shield modules per system = 18,754.94

The ore density combined with asteroid size changes have a MASSIVE effect on how valuable territory is. The doubled mining bonuses for territory expound upon that. Mining in unclaimed space is still pretty slow, but ideally you'll only be doing that for a short time while you get your own base of operations set up. Mining in your own territory is... Extremely lucrative.
With these numbers the space required to collect resources for manufacturing outside of factions territory is reduced to a third. Within other faction territory it's reduced 18 times. Within your own territory it's reduced 36 times.

The example ship's armor layer would require 86/14/7 (non-faction/other faction/own faction territory) asteroids mined in order to manufacture, which at 20 seconds (almost unreasonably optimistic) per asteroid would take 28/4.6/2.3 minutes of mining.
The example ship's shielding would require 1992/332/166 asteroids mined and 664(11 hours)/110/55 minutes of mining.
The previous 80 hour total work time is cut to approximately 26.6/4.4/2.2 hours to obtain enough resources for this fine vessel.

Heck, I don't even need to talk about the second issue, already solved with the improved shop stockings. Well done schema and Calbiri for patching up these problems as fast as they're documented.

With the new vanilla config, you'll definitely want to stick to either mooching off of faction territory or mining in your own. Blank system mining still takes quite a lot of time and effort. If you don't mind the risk of alerting people to your intentions you should claim a star system, mine it out, and then unclaim it.

 

[Keptick]

Are big rare asteroids already a thing. I heard that they were going to be a thing a while ago but it seems like they are already in the game?

I'm pretty sure that image he posted is a smedited asteroid model. Wouldn't it be amazing to have that ingame though?

At least the last update has a chance to spawn bigger asteroids, which is nice.

MrFURB you forgot that not all asteroids are larimar (for the shields) :p.

 

[Winterhome]

Then we start making checkerboard pattern cannons/beams because they are more efficient and can do more overall block damage

Of course.

Other games don't have this problem because you don't make your own guns - but they also have things like heat mechanics, power generators built into the weapons, etc.

 

[Sha3es]

How about we up the minimum amount of asteroids found in belt sectors. Just to throw a number out there around 12 minimum per sector and we could go up to or around 18.

This would help asteroid belts look and feel more realistic

 

[Yetimania]

Many players want to fly around in Capital ships and are upset they can't because it takes to long to build. Maybe Capital Ships will become exactly that: a CAPITAL ship (One large ship other smaller ships congregate around). Perhaps Capital Ships will become carriers that mainly carry other players smaller vessels with them. Maybe a real economy will mean not everyone will have the time or patience to own a Titan.

The ship the OP is talking about isn't a titan. It's a mid-sized harvester, and it takes 80 hours to mine for, optimistically, after already acquiring a decent harvester. That's insane. That's two full-time work weeks, or approximately 1/3 of the time I've spent playing Skyrim in total. I would not trade all of the free time I've ever spent playing Skyrim for three mid-sized harvesters, or nine ships for my entire lifetime's Elder Scrolls experience.

After spending all the time it takes to design that ship, it should take an hour, maximum, to produce it, after first getting a harvester and building a factory station.

If spaceships get too time-intensive to build, nobody's going to want to risk them. Period. If I'd wasted 80+ hours mining for my harvester, it wouldn't ever leave my home base, and if it somehow got destroyed, I'd probably never play StarMade again. Where's the fun in that? Ships should be relatively low time-investment so that people actually fight with them. I don't want to attack someone's ship knowing that if I destroy it, I've cost them 1/3rd of a Skyrim, and I certainly don't want to be attacked flying around in a vehicle that took so long to build. I want a StarMade in which combats are friendly and fun, and the only way for that to happen is for it to be relatively easy to rebuild a lost ship, and for people not to have to waste their lives away mining asteroids to make small numbers become big numbers.

 

[Mr.Steam]

The ship the OP is talking about isn't a titan. It's a mid-sized harvester, and it takes 80 hours to mine for, optimistically, after already acquiring a decent harvester. That's insane.

I didn't look really close at the specs of the OP ship, but I agree that is too long for something like that. My intent was to state that we may not all be able to fly really large ships.

 

[Valck]

insane

would not trade all of the free time I've ever spent playing Skyrim for three mid-sized harvesters

an hour, maximum, to produce

nobody's going to want to risk them. Period

wouldn't ever leave my home base

probably never play StarMade again

Nice rant mate. You do realize that three posts above yours the revised numbers for the latest build paint a very different picture from the OP?

Alrighty folks, here's the numbers revised for the new update:[...snip...]
The example ship's armor layer would require 86/14/7 (non-faction/other faction/own faction territory) asteroids mined in order to manufacture, which at 20 seconds (almost unreasonably optimistic) per asteroid would take 28/4.6/2.3 minutes of mining.
The example ship's shielding would require 1992/332/166 asteroids mined and 664(11 hours)/110/55 minutes of mining.
The previous 80 hour total work time is cut to approximately 26.6/4.4/2.2 hours to obtain enough resources for this fine vessel.

Heck, I don't even need to talk about the second issue, already solved with the improved shop stockings. Well done schema and Calbiri for patching up these problems as fast as they're documented.

With the new vanilla config, you'll definitely want to stick to either mooching off of faction territory or mining in your own. Blank system mining still takes quite a lot of time and effort. If you don't mind the risk of alerting people to your intentions you should claim a star system, mine it out, and then unclaim it.

 

[WarmasterRaptor]

With everybody's opinion on how they feel about time to produce "mid-sized big ships (?)"

How much time do you think a player should spend harvesting for his first ship?

What that first ship should be? It's size? It's armament? Functions?
How much shield should it have?
should it have ALL the systems?
All the weapons?

When one should own a frigate? a destroyer? a cruiser? a battle-cruiser? a dreadnought? and so on...

What I see is a lot of people enjoying the unregulated, fast-paced, ultra easy way we have right now to build giant stuff and aren't happy with the new system because it'll force them to choose and slow down the "biggest ship around" contest.

Crafting was never supposed to be that easy, we just got used to it as we'll have to get used to the new one.

I don't say it's perfect, but it's a good step in the right direction.

My ramblings are over :P

 

[Gerion]

Hm... Thats a lot of waste material i guess.... Maybe if you could recycle the rocks and other stuff to get a random shard or ore that would cut down on the time required. At hefty exchange rates, of course.

 

[Stakhanov]

Something people forget is that time sinks do not add value to any game - in fact , they usually make it worse. Some have a good enough design that necessary time sinks do not adversely impact the game's pace , but they are few.

Consider minecraft - all blocks and ores take time to mine. But when you're in a cave , the day / night cycle doesn't matter. And hunger only increases due to actions , not over time. Therefore , the extra digging time for ores is irrelevant and only wastes your time. That's terrible game design.

In single player starmade , all that time spent salvaging asteroids or planets is also wasted. As long as pirates cannot kill your ship , it makes no difference wether you obtain blocks in one second or one hour of holding a button. Mining is a waste of your time when you could be using /give instead. There's no decision beyond "do I keep mining or am I too bored of it" nor any sense of reward.

Multiplayer starmade is more of a competition to gather resources and build ships , but it's hardly fair. Players join at different times and play for different lengths of time. If someone joins earlier and plays more , he can obtain more stuff. Which snowballs into huge unkillable ships.

There's confusion around starmade's design goals (if it has any) that greatly disrupts the game flow. Some think playing the game longer should automatically result in owning better ships , but that's completely arbitrary. Some believe that a properly scaled economy would balance capital ships out with the rest , so that they would not dominate "too much" ; not consistent either. If a method or player impulse detracts from the game or makes it unplayable for others , then it should be eliminated , not disincentivized. If you want to reduce the impact of invulnerable lagships , requiring people to grind N hours for them will only make all competitive players grind N hours. That is unproductive.

MMO games tend to be saturated with time sinks for player retention (especially in order to keep subscriptions active) and so should not be used as models. There are plenty of multiplayer games that do without. Good ones push for interaction and strategizing.

If you're going to keep mining in starmade , automation is the way to go. Mining drones that can be ordered around save players the boredom of clicking at blocks forever. The most efficient method should result in the highest exposure , deploying swarms of slow , fragile mining drones all over a system to mine it all at once. After transfering its cargo to a factory planet and deciding what to build next , the carrier would recall its drones , engage its jump drive and move on to the next system. Ideally , the carrier would be way too large to dock to any planet , only dedicated shipyards it was built from. Such activities would be easily disrupted by rivals , or the owners of the systems you're poaching asteroids in.

Resources really need to be specialized , rather than universal. A single system should only provide enough variety for the most basic block types , like hull , power and thrusters. Effect modules should require materials from different quadrants of the galaxy , or at least many systems apart. And be rarely for sale in shops , so that even a small shuttle would need to explore a bit to fetch its overdrive. Factions could sell those valuable modules in bulk at a premium , at the cost of arming their competition better. Explorers would have a more valid job if they could look for a good spot for their faction to settle in , to secure a strategic and financial advantage , compared to systems right outside spawn.

Manpower needs to be the most essential resource , and involve more than clicking at blocks or holding forward thrust. Tracking other players undetected should remain possible , preferably doing more than activating cloak. Spy ships with powerful scanners and no competitive weapons should be needed to glean information to deal a crippling blow to the target faction , in planned offensives too swift to let the defenders hide in the temporary safety of their base.

For that to be possible at all , a better counter system needs to be in place. Whatever advantage capital ships may have , they must have weaknesses to some types of smaller ships - preferably the smallest , as building a slightly smaller capship remains out of reach of new players and factions.

 

[Ithirahad]

Last bit about capships aside, I agree fully, Stakh. Mining is just boring and useless grind that will just make players less inclined to play.

 

[Snk]

I'm not much of a miner, more of a merchant, so I'll throw in my two cents.

The main problem with the economy is the fact that everyone has an equal distribution of resources. There is no supply-demand. Systems should be so that they have a surplus of one or two type of asteroid, and placed farther apart. I'm not sure if just moving all the system out would require a reset, but eh. Between the systems would be interstellar space, which have nothing in them.

A lot of the complains here stems from the fact Star Made has nothing to fill its time. Mining is boring, and I agree.

This is how crew ability can help the game. You could hire an AI helmsman to mine for you, while you walk around your ship. Directly accessing or maintaing your ship would greatly relieve the tedium.


Another thing: How does this do anything but decrease the scale of the game? It just means smaller ships. Also, a lack of the shielding ores (whatever they are called) simply increases the usage of armor. As Valhezling demonstrated, armor works nicely.

 

[Viridis00]

The main problem with the economy is the fact that everyone has an equal distribution of resources. There is no supply-demand. Systems should be so that they have a surplus of one or two type of asteroid, and placed farther apart.

That would be a good way to go about it, and make exploration more rewarding at the same time.

In addition to asymmetrical resource distribution, I'd like to see some cache-type resource rewards for the lucky explorer as well (anyone remember the hollow pyramids with loot at the center?). For instance, tiny to large abandoned outposts on random worlds (underground and topside) with hidden storage units filled with a bountiful amount of resources.

Starmade is all about options, so for those who find mining boring can take up a more exploratory role as a treasure hunter of sorts. Mining being the steady but boring option in contrast to the less often but fairly well rewarded explorer.

This thread is great, but I think something we also need to take into consideration is the fact that surely when we get quests, there will probably be resource rewards as well, probably suited to many roles like Trader, Explorer, Hunter, Pirate, etc. I'd shudder to think that we'd only be rewarded in credits which have been devalued (but far from useless) considerably.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

That would be a good way to go about it, and make exploration more rewarding at the same time.

In addition to asymmetrical resource distribution, I'd like to see some cache-type resource rewards for the lucky explorer as well (anyone remember the hollow pyramids with loot at the center?). For instance, tiny to large abandoned outposts on random worlds (underground and topside) with hidden storage units filled with a bountiful amount of resources.

Starmade is all about options, so for those who find mining boring can take up a more exploratory role as a treasure hunter of sorts. Mining being the steady but boring option in contrast to the less often but fairly well rewarded explorer.

This thread is great, but I think something we also need to take into consideration is the fact that surely when we get quests, there will probably be resource rewards as well, probably suited to many roles like Trader, Explorer, Hunter, Pirate, etc. I'd shudder to think that we'd only be rewarded in credits which have been devalued (but far from useless) considerably.

Those are a rare occurrance, but do occur. Pyramids still rarely generate on desert planets, and cities on Earth-type planets, often containing storage(s) although the loot is less than bountiful.