A discussion on economy: By the numbers!

[SkylordLuke]

Regardless of how many people you bring together, each one will need their own ship. I don't like limiting FEATURES to people with higher organization skills - this isn't EVE, much as you or I may want it to be.

That's still 33 hours per ship per person, which evens out to 33 hours per person.

With your last calculation, skylord, I think we can safely divide it by three - because the galaxy isn't a perfect cube. Hell, i'd go for dividing all those wonderful numbers by ten :p

That would be more accurate.

my numbers are quite accurate,I assure you :P
look at the galaxy map,count the X;Y;Z on how many systems there are (there are 95k),and count how many of those contain a star (somewhere around 30%)..and soo ..yes,my calculations are correct!
I was even soft with them,because one star system can have 3-6 planets,which can lead to one galaxy having over 90 000 planets..
so my calculation are very fair,dont attack me,attack the math

 

[MrFURB]

A lot of games get around the problem of small ships being worthless against capital ships by making large individual weapons inefficient power-wise, and either reducing projectile speeds for superweapons, or making ships much more maneuverable (as in atmospheric flight levels of maneuverability).

Idea being that a capital ship can instakill a fighter - if it hits it. And that's a really, really big "if".

Wow, that's my thoughts on the issue exactly. Limit the effect big ships have on small ships to area weapons, small turrets, or drones/fighters... But that's a different issue for a different time.
Right now, there's a new set of numbers to crunch! I'll be back later with an updated version of the OP's numbers.

 

[Mered4]

my numbers are quite accurate,I assure you :p
look at the galaxy map,count the X;Y;Z on how many systems there are (there are 95k),and count how many of those contain a star (somewhere around 30%)..and soo ..yes,my calculations are correct!
I was even soft with them,because one star system can have 3-6 planets,which can lead to one galaxy having over 90 000 planets..
so my calculation are very fair,dont attack me,attack the math

Sorry, thought I was attacking your math.

 

[SkylordLuke]

Sorry, thought I was attacking your math.

oh,sorry then.
but yeah..its accurate :P

 

[Chalkline]

In about an hours worth of time (without the doubled mining bonus from territory due to the recent update cuz me server hasnt updated yet) mining a planet (in my own factions territory) I've gathered.

51k Parstun
53k Sertise
19k Sintyr
22k Bastyn
93k Mattise
12k Rammet
18k Parsun

Total resources = 268k

Don't know why you would spend X amount of time chasing asteroids, when a planet gives this much more in roughly an hours worth of time, and even typing right now my auto miner is mining for me. Thank goodness for logic systems.

( Using a 100k ship with roughly 8000 miner blocks @ an average of 5 blocks a second)

 

[Matt_Bradock]

In about an hours worth of time (without the doubled mining bonus from territory due to the recent update cuz me server hasnt updated yet) mining a planet (in my own factions territory) I've gathered.

51k Parstun
53k Sertise
19k Sintyr
22k Bastyn
93k Mattise
12k Rammet
18k Parsun

Total resources = 268k

Don't know why you would spend X amount of time chasing asteroids, when a planet gives this much more in roughly an hours worth of time, and even typing right now my auto miner is mining for me. Thank goodness for logic systems.

The problem with planets is, they do not respawn, so they are a finite resource, even though they are (at first) present in rather large numbers. Although I doubt there can be 6 planets/system any more as tenk11kamikaza suggested. Schema stated in the universe update that more than 2 is highly unlikely.
However, imagine a server with say, 20+ active players. (players that log on frequently, 3+ times a week). Everyone starts mining planets, say, one planet every 2 days.
- New players will not see any planets because ofc first those closest to spawn will be gone.
- Eventually, people will have to spread out at large areas to find planets that haven't been mined yet
- People need to claim the systems the planets are in, in order to receive the mining bonus which will cause large, spread out factions and large factions with lots of FP generation will be in a considerable advantage
- Casual players will rarely have a planet left to mine, as the more active, organized faction players will mine it all up before they could come online and get to it
- Absolutely no planetary bases or racetracks or other planetary features - they will be needed for resources.

 

[aceface]

The problem with planets is, they do not respawn, so they are a finite resource, even though they are (at first) present in rather large numbers. Although I doubt there can be 6 planets/system any more as tenk11kamikaza suggested. Schema stated in the universe update that more than 2 is highly unlikely.
However, imagine a server with say, 20+ active players. (players that log on frequently, 3+ times a week). Everyone starts mining planets, say, one planet every 2 days.
- New players will not see any planets because ofc first those closest to spawn will be gone.
- Eventually, people will have to spread out at large areas to find planets that haven't been mined yet
- People need to claim the systems the planets are in, in order to receive the mining bonus which will cause large, spread out factions and large factions with lots of FP generation will be in a considerable advantage
- Casual players will rarely have a planet left to mine, as the more active, organized faction players will mine it all up before they could come online and get to it
- Absolutely no planetary bases or racetracks or other planetary features - they will be needed for resources.

blow a planet up and it'll respawn once you reload the sector :3[DOUBLEPOST=1417633760,1417633685][/DOUBLEPOST]Personlly, I think the 33 hours is ok. For a 10k mass ship which to me is huge, I think that's ok. The problem is the actual area that needs to be mined to get those resources is way off the charts. Asteroids need more resources and to be bigger. We'll see how everything goes down, but here's my two cents.

 

[Chalkline]

Well, I have 3 faction territory's 1 with two planets, 1 with 5 planets, 1 with 6 planets, about to acquire another with 6 planets, on my server planets respawn. So what @tenk11kamikaza is true, just keep searching systems until you find it. What aceface said is true as well , Ive mined the same planet in my homebase area roughly 8 times now, I rotate between all the planets in my factions territory's.

 

[Keptick]

Wow, that's my thoughts on the issue exactly. Limit the effect big ships have on small ships to area weapons, small turrets, or drones/fighters... But that's a different issue for a different time.
Right now, there's a new set of numbers to crunch! I'll be back later with an updated version of the OP's numbers.

I actually suggested something for turret accuracy to be based on size difference between the turret and a target (because honestly, if a Cap manages to bring it's main guns on you while you're in a fighter then you're doing something horribly wrong). It might not be realistic but it could solve balance issues.

However, keep in mind that a single small ship shouldn't be able to take down a ship 10x in size. A swarm of 10 of those smaller ships will currently wipe the floor with the larger ship, we just need something to control that swarm.

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

Nobody mines asteroids anyways because the only useful raw resource at the moment (ore) can be harvested faster from planets.

 

[Keptick]

Nobody mines asteroids anyways because the only useful raw resource at the moment (ore) can be harvested faster from planets.

Yea, asteroids should really have a higher ore concentration than planets. It's kinda pointless to have them otherwise...

 

[Malacodor]

Yea, asteroids should really have a higher ore concentration than planets. It's kinda pointless to have them otherwise...

I'd prefer having more of them. Currently each asteroid sector has a lump of asteroids in its center, this doesn't look like an asteroid belt.

 

[SkylordLuke]

I'd prefer having more of them. Currently each asteroid sector has a lump of asteroids in its center, this doesn't look like an asteroid belt.

this.
it would be nice if we had huuuge asteroid fields|clouds ,and each asteroid with the same amount of ores as we have now. so that would be almost like mining a planet,as in how many resources you can get,but you still have to mine each asteroid manualy,so thats cool,and i dont think it would cause lag issues..because even if we had asteroid fields as big as 100/150 asteroids,that would be like looking at a small/medium frigate,nothing low/end pc/s cant handle

 

[Criss]

The main problem isn't that capital ships have a high demand - it's that the combat system forces the creation of larger vessels to defend oneself against larger factions and/or richer factions. If fleets were more viable to use against large ships, then this whole issue would go away. Right now, using a fleet in combat is nigh on impossible without already outnumbering your opponent, which already gives you a tremendous advantage.

Essentially, in a world where cap ships can one shot frigates, people will build cap ships. If cap ships DON'T one shot frigates, suddenly more possibilities open up.

wut.

I've been modding planetary annihilation for around 3 months now, adjusting the balance because the developers refused to take the time to fix it. Some of my changes have recently been added to the vanilla build.

So now you know, that when I say that cost is the last tool for balance and actual combat testing is best, I'm not talking out of my ass.

If this is meant to encourage armor tanking, why the hell is armor so fragile? every single ship I build is an artificially shielded mass of pudding shelled in cardboard, being attack by some guy with a flamethrower. Adding more cardboard isn't going to help much.

Because you still use massive weapon systems in a universe that is trying to force a big time sink on you. You would not be building the same ships now, as the ones that you have in your BP folder currently. Those ships belong to a game version where they worked and were practical. As MRFurb up there has demonstrated, it is no longer practical to build that way and had you the need to start from scratch with this game you would be building way differently.

 

[SkylordLuke]

Because you still use massive weapon systems in a universe that is trying to force a big time sink on you. You would not be building the same ships now, as the ones that you have in your BP folder currently. Those ships belong to a game version where they worked and were practical. As MRFurb up there has demonstrated, it is no longer practical to build that way and had you the need to start from scratch with this game you would be building way differently.

^ this soo much!
people need to realize this is a whole new game now

 

[Criss]

^ this soo much!
people need to realize this is a whole new game now

Nice new banner :P[DOUBLEPOST=1417638972,1417637517][/DOUBLEPOST]Also

A lot of games get around the problem of small ships being worthless against capital ships by making large individual weapons inefficient power-wise

ALL OF THIS

Just a heads up guys, and this is not to confirm or deny anything. It's just what I heard. But Calbiri apparently is against mining planets from a spaceship. To be honest I kinda agree. There is no incentive for a base on a planet other than maybe as a faction home. If I was forced to make some sort of establishment on a planet to extract resources I would visit them more often. We also wouldn't have to lag out our computers simply by mining it to death. I imagine if a system was in place for extracting resources it would extract at a rate based on a number of modules. The planets would hold a massive finite amount of resources. The faster you extract resources the more power you need? Exponentially? Idk.

I want a mining base on planets. So long as it doesn't take longer than what we currently have if its set up right.

 

[Keptick]

Nice new banner :p[DOUBLEPOST=1417638972,1417637517][/DOUBLEPOST]Also


ALL OF THIS

Just a heads up guys, and this is not to confirm or deny anything. It's just what I heard. But Calbiri apparently is against mining planets from a spaceship. To be honest I kinda agree. There is no incentive for a base on a planet other than maybe as a faction home. If I was forced to make some sort of establishment on a planet to extract resources I would visit them more often. We also wouldn't have to lag out our computers simply by mining it to death. I imagine if a system was in place for extracting resources it would extract at a rate based on a number of modules. The planets would hold a massive finite amount of resources. The faster you extract resources the more power you need? Exponentially? Idk.

I want a mining base on planets. So long as it doesn't take longer than what we currently have if its set up right.

Having planets contain an infinite amount of resources (that replenishes at a set rate) would actually go a LONG way towards more interaction between factions. Everyone and their mother would try to get their hands on that 7 planet star system in order to set up extractors.

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

Yea, asteroids should really have a higher ore concentration than planets. It's kinda pointless to have them otherwise...

I'd love to see giant asteroids like this
It would be cool to have an actual mining base built on one

 

[aceface]

Having planets contain an infinite amount of resources (that replenishes at a set rate) would actually go a LONG way towards more interaction between factions. Everyone and their mother would try to get their hands on that 7 planet star system in order to set up extractors.

this

 

[Criss]

Are big rare asteroids already a thing. I heard that they were going to be a thing a while ago but it seems like they are already in the game?