How do you protect the little guy?

Vvolodymyr · Mar 23, 2017

Anyways, this is my view on the topic* & 2 ideas that seem reasonable.

Koloss_Meshuggah said:
Eve Online handles this pretty well. If you shoot someone you become a "criminal" and get a red cross-bones icon. You become fair game for anyone in New Eden to waste you until the cross-bone timer runs out.

View attachment 40072

Starmade can take this a step further by putting your location on the galaxy map for everyone to see. Then players who want to specialize as bounty hunters can hunt you down (for credits or standing with the Trade Guild). Even if you run to the edge of the galaxy someone in a logic-jumping titan will come and wreck you. There's your pvp incentive :D

Edit: there's still the problem that players already in titans can do what ever they want....idk

Matt_Bradock said:
Newbies in general should have no specific rules to apply to them.

HOWEVER. PvP itself should be handled. Right now, engaging in PvP takes no risk other than losing the single ship you took there. Worst case, you respawn at your invincible homebase safe from any attempt at a retaliation. You only risk losing your satellite bases for system claims, which players usually solve by slapping a faction module on a derelict or planet and calling it a day, the only thing being at risk is the loss of that singular faction module. Swell.

SO. Like many ideas before my post, I also think notorious PvP players should have something to worry about (they like a challenge anyway... let's give them one.)
I propose the following to be implemented:

Each faction (and factionless player) should have a tag, which can have the following values:
- Peaceful
- Freelancer
- Pirate

They would also have a Notoriety value, which could be displayed by everyone and have consequences if it goes too high.

Peaceful setting would grant a 50% bonus to mining in own or allied space, and a 50% transport fee reduction when trading, BUT you lose Peaceful setting the moment you mine in a non-allied player or NPC faction's system (stealing/poaching) or fire at/damage any non-hostile ship, claimed planet or non-derelict station, turning you into a Freelancer. Peaceful factions could serve as miners, traders and service providers (Game arenas, warp gate network, trade network). GAINING EVEN ONE POINT OF NOTORIETY WOULD SET YOUR SETTING TO FREELANCER until all your Notoriety has decayed.

Freelancers wouldn't have an extra mining or trade bonus, but they could fight freely, and their Notoriety won't increase as long as they attack only NPC pirates, Scavenger/Outcast NPC factions, and players with the Pirate tag. As opportunists, they would get 10% more loot from NPC pirate ships. Freelancer factions would make good mercenaries or law enforcers. However, if they'd keep mining in non-allied factions' claimed sectors, or attack NPC Traders, non-hostile Freelancer, or Peaceful factions/players, each time it happens (mining as much as a single block in another faction's space, or hitting the before mentioned factions with any weapon) their Notoriety increases. When Notoriety hits 10, they'd get the Pirate tag.

Pirates are the most notorious players and factions in the galaxy. They would be automatically treating and treated by each non-allied faction as hostile (except Outcasts), and attacking them wouldn't increase the attacker's Notoriety. Pirates wouldn't be able to claim systems, but they could still have their homebase(but its coordinates would only be displayed if someone spotted it), and instead, they would have the claimed system mining bonus by mining in hostile systems. However, that would also come with the drawback that whenever they come into the 2 sector vicinity of a non-allied non-derelict station or ship, the entity that spotted them broadcasts a message serverwide:
[###WARNING! A PIRATE HAS BEEN SPOTTED IN THE VICINITY OF EntityName IN SECTOR X-Y-Z###]
inviting the Freelancers to go for a pirate hunt, though only giving the approximate position (the message would only contain the spotter's coordinates, not the pirate's) and no names.
The most notorious factions and players would also gain a bounty of 100000 credits per point of Notoriety, that would automatically go to the player scoring a kill against them, further encouraging pirate hunting (top 10 players/faction members every server)

Notoriety decays over time - by 1 point every 24 hours of server uptime (server restarts would not reset Notoriety, only universe wipes)

Notoriety would increase for performing the following actions:
- Hitting a non-hostile NPC ship or station with any weapon or drain beam(incl. warheads): 1 point (can only increase once every 10 seconds)
- Hitting an unclaimed derelict station or planet with any weapon or salvage beam(incl. warheads): 1 point (Peaceful setting only)
- Hitting a non-hostile or Peaceful player controlled/player factioned ship or station or any entity on its docking chain(incl. warheads): 2 points (can only increase once every 10 seconds)
- Mining in an NPC faction's claimed system: 1 point (can increase once every 60 seconds)
- Mining in a non-allied player faction's claimed system: 1 point (can increase once every 30 seconds)
- Blowing up a planet in any space except your own: 10 points

Vvolodymyr said:
I think it all really depends on one thing - how often does it really happen that the "little guy" is actually preyed upon?
Does a noticeable portion of new players gets attacked to the point where they give up playing before they properly started playing?
If it is indeed a notable phenomenon - then absolutely, the "little guy" would need some sort of protection.
It's hard to say definitively without real statistic - maybe dev team could implement a statistic gathering programme for the server people.

As for the general moderation of behavior - namely PvP - we do already have different servers with different rules: build, role-playing, general & mandatory PvP. All with their own rules. Here it seems to be a server selection issue - everyone chooses the server with the atmosphere they prefer.

If there will be eventually one giant official server for all (is that likely?) - then I would of course lean towards some reasonable moderation of behavior with starter protection and possibly tags. The notoriety idea seems cool. We could have bounty system too. The notoriety + bounty idea kinda ties the PvP and RP aspects together.

Right now though, everything is still up in the air - many possibilities still open.

For those who really enjoy attacking - The "Dread Pirate" challenge - this is a great idea & opportunity to blow off steam and have some fun.

Edymnion · Mar 23, 2017

Lecic said:
The point was that you should not be able to fight a larger and more established faction on your first day, and that you should seek help with someone who is if someone else decides to pick a fight with you.

Or you can simply have a mechanic that says "Player with overwhelming capability can't attack the newbie with a glorified shuttle craft".

The Judge said:
What you want is the Faction with LESS resources to triumph over the one with more, and that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

No, what I want is a faction with less resources to be able to say "I don't want to get wiped off the map" by the faction with 10x the resources.

Its that simple.

No "the little guy beats the big guy" nonsense, no giving the little guy giant military bonuses to make them equal to the big guy for less effort, just the plain and simple option not to fight.

Thats been a staple of MMO's for over a decade.

Nickizzy · Mar 23, 2017

Edymnion said:
Thats been a staple of MMO's for over a decade.

Now how do you deal with them. There's this one pesky little faction that has a tenth of your resources, a twentieth of your land, and stand right in your way of expansion across the galaxy. They say "we don't want to fight".

Unless you give really strong defensive bonuses, like double station durability, it's imposible to have a well made system to prevent conquest momentum.

jayman38 · Mar 23, 2017

It's a big universe. As a new player, I'd flee the initial starting areas and head out for the far side of the galaxy.

Maybe we can copy a page from the EVE playbook and have high-sec systems, where weapons aren't allowed to work, and if fired from outside the zone, do no damage inside. (no damage in or out) A safe haven for any player, regardless of their normal tendencies. These zones could be "enforced" around spawn, and found randomly in the universe. Randomly-placed no-fire zones would encourage builders to go out exploring. So maybe increase the chance of an asteroid spawn in these areas, to give resources to occupants. Various in-game mechanics could be developed to give a reason why these zones don't allow weapons file (E.g. maybe instead of disabling shields and scanners, nebulas or the outer layers of a gas giant or "liquid space" areas don't allow lasers, explosions, high-energy impacts, etc.)

Could it be exploited? Sure. However, it could be exploited by both combat parties at the same time, much like how submarines transition past thermal layers in the ocean to further hide their signature.

Nickizzy · Mar 23, 2017

jayman38 said:
It's a big universe. As a new player, I'd flee the initial starting areas and head out for the far side of the galaxy.

Maybe we can copy a page from the EVE playbook and have high-sec systems, where weapons aren't allowed to work, and if fired from outside the zone, do no damage inside. (no damage in or out) A safe haven for any player, regardless of their normal tendencies. These zones could be "enforced" around spawn, and found randomly in the universe. Randomly-placed no-fire zones would encourage builders to go out exploring. So maybe increase the chance of an asteroid spawn in these areas, to give resources to occupants. Various in-game mechanics could be developed to give a reason why these zones don't allow weapons file (E.g. maybe instead of disabling shields and scanners, nebulas or the outer layers of a gas giant or "liquid space" areas don't allow lasers, explosions, high-energy impacts, etc.)

Could it be exploited? Sure. However, it could be exploited by both combat parties at the same time, much like how submarines transition past thermal layers in the ocean to further hide their signature.

And have a hidden network of JG connecting them, so they don't get sorrounded by Imperial factions. Asteroids shoulf respawn(always), but there shouldn't be more inside than out. That makes it meaningless to ever leave.

Edymnion · Mar 23, 2017

Nickizzy said:
Now how do you deal with them. There's this one pesky little faction that has a tenth of your resources, a twentieth of your land, and stand right in your way of expansion across the galaxy. They say "we don't want to fight".

Unless you give really strong defensive bonuses, like double station durability, it's imposible to have a well made system to prevent conquest momentum.

1) Its a multiplayer game. You don't get to take over the entire universe at the expense of other players. They've got every bit as much right to play on a given server as you do. If we're being perfectly honest, I feel the players who are keeping to themselves and working with other people deserve to play on the server MORE than the "I wanna rule the universe" players. Because they actually understand what being on a multiplayer server is.

2) They already have homebase invulnerability, you can't take their system by force even if you wanted to.

3) If you're that powerful, you have more than enough resources to simply move your homebase farther out and expand there. You don't NEED to take theirs. You are capable of moving, they aren't.

So the "How do I take over the universe?" bit is a false answer to start with. The answer is "You don't". Sooner we get past that, the sooner we can make some real headway.
[doublepost=1490294419,1490293907][/doublepost]

kulbolen said:
if you want to enter a server on day 1 as a new player and just "have" an established empire to compete with veterans, because thats what you feel entitled to to have fun; weve identified the root disconnect between us. this would not be fun at all to me.

Thats not what I'm talking about and I'm pretty sure you know it.

I don't want to hand anyone a galactic empire. I want it so that new players don't get blown out of the sky by random PvP griefer/asshole #397 three minutes after they log in.

And really, it boils down to this for me. If you say its bad form to attack a new player like that, then why would you oppose some actual mechanics to protect them? The only reason I can see to say "We have to allow new players to be wiped off the face of the server" is because you (generic you, here) enjoy wiping newbs off the face of the server.

If you didn't, why do you care if they have some extra protection?

Give new players on the server a way to protect themselves from the people that give PvP such a bad name. Means we don't get a toxic environment, and it means the PvP fights you do get are much more enjoyable because they're fair fights.

kulbolen · Mar 23, 2017

Edymnion said:
Thats not what I'm talking about and I'm pretty sure you know it.

based on your previous posts, i actually didnt know it. thanks for clearing it up.

i am against killing new players. but im not against the possibility of killing new players. the reason im against a hard mechanic is because i think the community should police itself. i like the wild west feel, and when im new on a server i like knowing that i need to either take care of myself or rely on other people instead of just pretending im in single player. if i act like a fool as a newer player i know i might attract unwanted attention, and i enjoy this possibility.

if this were some kind of huge problem in starmade, i dont know about it. in my experience, almost everyone i see dying is someone involved in chat trash talk against a more experienced player, or someone dying to a pirate or a star. i think people have this expectation that theyre the hero of the story and it revolves around them and they should never die or lose. this may be true on sp, but in mp youre just another player.

the amount of times ive experienced (firsthand or through hanging out near spawn or near a new player) actual griefing a new person has been pretty low, and is usually by *other new people* in the area. this serves a valuable purpose for players who pay attention or have any investment in the server; it broadcasts names for everyone to know who not to trust.

Edymnion said:
And really, it boils down to this for me. If you say its bad form to attack a new player like that, then why would you oppose some actual mechanics to protect them? The only reason I can see to say "We have to allow new players to be wiped off the face of the server" is because you (generic you, here) enjoy wiping newbs off the face of the server.

are you serious?

Edymnion · Mar 23, 2017

kulbolen said:
are you serious?

Yes, I am.

Way I see it, anyone opposed to even the option of giving newbies a way to protect themselves from people like Batavium is only defending the position because they do it as well and just don't want to publicly admit to it.

No honorable PvP'er would want to jump a noob in the first place, and I don't care what the dishonorable PvP'ers think. The dishonorable PvP'ers need to be expelled from the game entirely.

kulbolen · Mar 23, 2017

Edymnion said:
Way I see it, anyone opposed to even the option of giving newbies a way to protect themselves from people like Batavium is only defending the position because they do it as well and just don't want to publicly admit to it.

No honorable PvP'er would want to jump a noob in the first place, and I don't care what the dishonorable PvP'ers think. The dishonorable PvP'ers need to be expelled from the game entirely.

Edymnion said:
And really, it boils down to this for me. If you say its bad form to attack a new player like that, then why would you oppose some actual mechanics to protect them? The only reason I can see to say "We have to allow new players to be wiped off the face of the server" is because you (generic you, here) enjoy wiping newbs off the face of the server.

the leaps you have to make to reach these conclusions is beyond me.

thank you for clarifying your position. its obvious theres no reasoning with you; we have irreconcilable differences in belief. i hope the games developers dont share your opinions.

Edymnion · Mar 23, 2017

kulbolen said:
thank you for clarifying your position. its obvious theres no reasoning with you; we have irreconcilable differences in belief. i hope the games developers dont share your opinions.

They'd better. I can't think of a single multiplayer game involving mechanical advancement that doesn't go to at least some lengths to protect new players that hasn't crashed and burned.

Usually when someone has an unfair advantage in a non-advancement game like Halo or Starcraft (where everyone starts out new and fresh every time a new game starts), the userbase is howling for patches immediately because it was unfair that they got beat by someone using it.

Same applies here, in my book.

Batavium · Mar 23, 2017

Edymnion said:
Way I see it, anyone opposed to even the option of giving newbies a way to protect themselves from people like Batavium is only defending the position because they do it as well and just don't want to publicly admit to it.

I have a Fan! :^D

Crashmaster · Mar 23, 2017

It is bad form to attack most new players but some new players are going to be assholes that earn their quick trip to the spawner.

If new players and get invulnerability then established players must have a way to protect themselves from mineral theft, territorial incursion and trolling by invulnerable players. Invulnerable players would need to be isolated in their own area, not allowed to leave or interact with others beyond chat until they learn the game enough to deal with the risks. So, why don't they just start off on SP or a beginner server catering to non-PvP instead of demanding special protections be implemented in-game?

Hard rules enforced by, 'you cannot X' messages and hand-waving lore-babble are just crap. I built this fucking ship by hand - it'll fire when I order it to fire.

Since there is very little 'gameplay' yet I think it might be more productive to re-assess new players' difficulties once core gameplay is more fleshed out, early game goals, abilities and starting point are determined and some sort of advancement scale can be determined to judge a player's newness by. Frankly they are just new testers at this point anyways.

There will always be someone with an advantage over you regardless of all other factors because someone will invest more time. No amount of howling can fix that nor should it. I'm in support of any space-justice being emergent and only in the hands of the players. If you want the noobs protected gather your supporters to you and organize a powerful faction that does just that instead of forming multitudinous one-man factions that do nothing but complain they have not the power to survive competitively and are subjected to taxation by large factions. (yeah, I know, no-one wants to do that cuz trust issues and everyone wants to be Glorious Leader, I'd best stop rambling)

Also; If new players should get protection from established players, should they also be protected from other new players or allowed to learn by fighting amongst themselves?

Lecic · Mar 24, 2017

Edymnion said:
Or you can simply have a mechanic that says "Player with overwhelming capability can't attack the newbie with a glorified shuttle craft".

That mechanic is called "other players don't like assholes." If little jimmy cries out in public chat that his starter ship was blow up by dickhead johnny in 3 1 3, johnny's about to have an awful lot of people looking for him, blowing up his claim bases, and camping his homebase waiting for his return. If there's not a single person willing to come to the aid of a brand new player who just got attacked, then maybe find another server? You JUST STARTED afterall, and it seems like no one on the server has a shred of common decency anyway.

Edymnion said:
No "the little guy beats the big guy" nonsense, no giving the little guy giant military bonuses to make them equal to the big guy for less effort, just the plain and simple option not to fight.

And what happens when you're trying to claim the end of an of a galaxy because you want access to the fertikeen-dense mining fields to make it easier to produce warship hulls, but you can't, because there's a dozen single man "little guys" claiming the whole thing?

Edymnion said:
1) Its a multiplayer game. You don't get to take over the entire universe at the expense of other players.

It's a multiplayer game focused on empire building and conquest. Trying to take over huge swathes of the galaxy or even all of it is the only thing players have left to do in the late game. Fighting to control the whole galaxy or fighting back against it are the most fun combat based things you can and will be able to do in this game. If there's zero risk of having to fight for what is yours, why would you even play the multiplayer? For the CHAT ROOM?

Edymnion said:
3) If you're that powerful, you have more than enough resources to simply move your homebase farther out and expand there. You don't NEED to take theirs. You are capable of moving, they aren't.

This is assuming we never have uneven resource distribution in the galaxy, require more than a single base, or make extragalactic travel more difficult or even impossible. Not to mention this isn't even true in the current game, let alone the future- what's easier to move, a tiny scaffold of power and factory blocks with some docks for 1, 2, maybe 3 ships, or a massive base with dozens of ships and billions of items in storage?

Edymnion said:
If you say its bad form to attack a new player like that, then why would you oppose some actual mechanics to protect them?

Because I don't agree with the game losing its "wild west" feel. Bad guys should be able to be bad guys, who engage in piracy or blockade a new player.

For the record, I don't support entirely removing protections for players- the spawn sector and homebases should be invulnerable in the default configs, because brand new players shouldn't be able to get nuked while they're setting up their initial expedition, and players should not be capable of entirely wiping someone off the server. I just don't think that game enforced courtesy should extend beyond 2 2 2, or that just having a homebase should be sufficient to do much of anything.

Mortiferum · Mar 24, 2017

In this game, training wheels come in the form of single player, and multiplayer can be as cruel and unforgiving as the players on it (or admins' rules).

I see no fault with the game mechanic, and in fact, a degree of difficulty early game makes the game more fun, encourages the behavior of co-operating, etc.

Tbh, all the ideas suggested is simply conferring invincibility based on a bunch of criteria, or restricting other players....

----

Lastly, I never really seen many "RP'ers" on the servers I play on, anyone want to tell us where their experience came from? ))))

Besides, be the change you want to see, and make your own server with those rules and see how far it gets off....

NeonSturm · Mar 24, 2017

Why do we not just allow a wormhole to jump ships/players between servers, handling that wormhole like a storage-box + shipyard?
Really, what is the difference between a SinglePlayer-MP wormhole and a shipyard server-side?

PvP-peoples forget that some only want to join a server to be able to invite others to their builds (showcase) or for chat.

Batavium · Mar 24, 2017

NeonSturm said:
PvP-peoples forget that some only want to join a server to be able to invite others to their builds (showcase) or for chat.

If you use a Home Base and keep the ship docked when a PvPer shows up then you can chat and showcase all day long. Even the PvPer will get to showcase your build as that is all he will be capable of if the ship is docked to the Home Base.

As an added bonus you get to see the Fire works show of all the turrets your base has when they start to fire on the hostile. With the Pirates these days no longer attacking from out of the blue "Hostile Sighted". That is probably the only time ever you get to see them shoot at anything.

Nickizzy · Mar 24, 2017

Batavium said:
If you use a Home Base and keep the ship docked when a PvPer shows up then you can chat and showcase all day long. Even the PvPer will get to showcase your build as that is all he will be capable of if the ship is docked to the Home Base.

As an added bonus you get to see the Fire works show of all the turrets your base has when they start to fire on the hostile. With the Pirates these days no longer attacking from out of the blue "Hostile Sighted". That is probably the only time ever you get to see them shoot at anything.

No, you do it on a building server or showcase server. PVP servers are going to need all the processing they can get for the battles and stuff. Everything doesn't have to be on one server.

Batavium · Mar 24, 2017

Nickizzy said:
No, you do it on a building server or showcase server. PVP servers are going to need all the processing they can get for the battles and stuff. Everything doesn't have to be on one server.

Agreed.

People complain about bad things that happen to them. When they willingly and knowingly refuse to use the in game mechanics designed to keep them safe. Then wave some flag to elevate them self above these in game safety mechanics in order to be exempt from using them in the first place. As if anyone that does use stuff like a Home Base is some second rank citizen.

With just a little bit of situational awareness. You can do anything and everything on a StarMade server. And yes sometimes you get caught with your pants down. Well pull them back up and try again. Mistakes are to learn from.

That said a server like the Cake Build server is offcourse highly suited for those that just want show their builds.

linwe talion · Mar 24, 2017

You don't need to invent a bicycle. Either git gut, or the "reputation" system. Both work pretty well.

And yes, I've barely really seen anyone (ANYONE) on any (ANY!) server to severely offend the newcomers. Starmade has a welcoming community.
99% players treat other players just like they treat others. So if a modest newcomer comes to a server, humbly asking for help and defense, he always gets it.

Lecic · Mar 24, 2017

NeonSturm said:
Why do we not just allow a wormhole to jump ships/players between servers, handling that wormhole like a storage-box + shipyard?
Really, what is the difference between a SinglePlayer-MP wormhole and a shipyard server-side?

PvP-peoples forget that some only want to join a server to be able to invite others to their builds (showcase) or for chat.

Because build servers exist? If you just want to chat and show off, build servers exist.

Search

How do you protect the little guy?

Which option?

Git Gud(stay the same)

Peace Flags

Maintenance

You forgot muy idea!

Vvolodymyr

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

Nickizzy

jayman38

Precentor-Primus, pro-tempore

Nickizzy

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

kulbolen

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

kulbolen

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

Batavium

Crashmaster

I got N64 problems but a bitch ain't one

Lecic

Convicted Lancake Abuser

Mortiferum

NeonSturm

StormMaker

Batavium

Nickizzy

Batavium

linwe talion

Lecic

Convicted Lancake Abuser